Definition of Live PA

[Ritzi Lee]

Guys!

I don't know if this discussion was already done.
I see a lot of respected DJ's / producers going for Ableton:
Surgeon, Regis, James Ruskin, ....

And a lot of people call this Live PA's.
I totally disagree.
I don't think a live show would be very interesting if it isn't totally live.
I mean as a DJ your playing things that have been preprogrammed, fixed on vinyl. So basically a DJ does nothing more as reorganizing. You are not really creating something new, you always take something that already has been created. So you're actually reorganizing, rehashing it. A musician is one that makes something from absolutely nothing.

So this totally contradicts the definition of a live PA from a real musician.
And I think peopel are a little bit mixed up with the definition of doing a DJ set, or a Live set.

So what should we call the "Ableton" thing? LiveDJ, semi DJ or Live, or something else....

[dirty_bass]

Hmmm, It depends how it is used.
Some people use abletone as nothing more than an electric deck
some people really use it`s intuitivity and midi capability (well, rewire)
So it`s all relative.

[death on a stick]

Who can you think of that does live shows with no pre-programming, or very little?

I can think of 2. Jamie Lidell, and Shawn Rudiman. Lidell may or may not be out of scope of this thread as the music he makes live is not what many people, especially on this forum, would consider to be techno. Rudiman programs his drum machines, writes synths lines and screws with patches on the fly. He's not quite as live as Lidell, but very live in terms of techno performance. Are you saying that unless you achieve that level of liveness it can not be live?

I disagree. It's down to the individual performer. Aside from a tiny number of notable exceptions, most if not all live PAs are done using pre-programmed sequences and sounds, whether they be on software or hardware. I really see no difference between someone clicking in the next sample on Ableton, and someone else pressing a button to change the pattern on their MIDI sequencer. Both are open to laziness and "cheating".

How live the performance is depends on whether the artist is willing or able to react to the situation, to go off on a tangent or focus the set on one part of their repertoire. This all depends on their attitude to live performance and their ability to take risks, and learn their equipment to the point where they can adapt.

[dirty_bass]

well, I would say, it`s what comes out of the speakers that counts, but then you get people like lab 4, miming to a DAT

[death on a stick]

Yes. It's a question of what the performer is willing to do. If you build up a bank of samples to use in Ableton, how live and intricate it can depend on what level of detail you go to. For example, you could have 50 samples, each of which contained ALL the audio you need at any one time. Or you could have 500 samples, containing only the elements of each part e.g. only the hi-hat pattern, or only a vocal sample pattern....which would then form the part of an infinitely interchangeable matrix.

[ncw]

So basically a DJ does nothing more as reorganizing. You are not really creating something new, you always take something that already has been created. So you're actually reorganizing, rehashing it.

I disagree. A GOOD DJ makes the tracks happen, creates a situation that is unique.

[Remade]

I mean as a DJ your playing things that have been preprogrammed, fixed on vinyl. So basically a DJ does nothing more as reorganizing. You are not really creating something new, you always take something that already has been created. So you're actually reorganizing, rehashing it.

Interesting point of view. so every time you take something which was already in a way fixed you're just reorganizing. So babies aren't made they are just reorganized. after all DNA is just fixed and you reorganize it and voila. But since all the notes have a fixed structure, and have been played somwhere, sometime in human history then a musician is not responsible for any creativity whatsoever he is just reorganizing the notes. bah

[Evil G]

i always say "whoever can cheat the best wins".

there's a chris liberator record that says something to the effect of "there is no law here except the music and the droog". as long as it sounds good in that moment, who cares how it was done?

[death on a stick]

as long as it sounds good in that moment, who cares how it was done?
Yes, the end result is the most important thing. The topic is valid though, otherwise people wouldn't feel the need to cheat, they'd just be honest and put on a CD.

[Evil G]

as long as it sounds good in that moment, who cares how it was done?
Yes, the end result is the most important thing. The topic is valid though, otherwise people wouldn't feel the need to cheat, they'd just be honest and put on a CD.

i agree it's a valid topic. there is a tradeoff between sounding good and being able to improvise, and finding the balance can be difficult.

.

[g]

ritzi your first post here makes the assumption that anyone using ableton is using it as a hdj solution only.

wrong.

[Ritzi Lee]

2 death on a stick: First of all i want to remark that most of the time i didn't heared a true Ableton live set where the performers used 100% own sounds / samples. Regis and James Ruskin were the first. Only then you have a situation where it's just looping the tracks and mixing / layering.

Yes that's a good question: Where's the line where it isn't live anymore? I agree with you when all loops and samples are truely yours, and play / tweak, there's the line.

With the release of Ableton 4 you can control VSTi's and even external Midi stuff. I think it gives more that live feeling when you have more control over the sound; more tweaking and freaking.

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2 ncw: Ofcourse a good DJ knows how he plays the crowd. Situations are unique aight, but that's a totally different discussion from what i mentioned about reorganising the sounds technically speaking. :)

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2 Remade: See reply ncw.

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2 g: I also use Ableton. But only as a production tool.
It's just about the trend where most people use Ableton for a 'Live PA'.

[g]

2 g: I also use Ableton. But only as a production tool.
It's just about the trend where most people use Ableton for a 'Live PA'.
you're totally missing the point. ableton can be and often is used as a Live PA tool -- not just a hdj/'digital edit' tool. it's what ableton was created for. it's arguably the best tool ever invented for Live PAs in the hands of someone who really knows how to use it. like, say, monolake....

your first post is wrong-headed in using the examples of recent surgeon, regis, ruskin performances. i'm sure they would be the first to say these are hybrid sets. they aren't being billed as Live PAs in the traditional sense. these are just artists taking advantage of a new technology without tackling the serious amount of work that goes into preparing a "real" Live PA.

you've further missed the point in that 98% of Live PAs in the last 10 years are sample based. this includes the best of the best, people like Speedy J, Stewart Walker, Plastikman. everything is some degree or another of playback, it's just a matter of how granular you get with the pieces and how hard you work to rearrange them or make the elements of your original compositions fit into new contexts. hate to tell ya but Ableton is the best thing ever invented for this very thing. the fact that it's become concurrently popular to hybridize hdj sets with some original material is just a testament to the flexibility and power of the app... not what the world now defines as Live PA across the board. If you look at what hawtin did for the recent Plastikman show, THAT'S a Live PA -- even if he hadn't chosen to use any outboard equipment. Likewise what Speedy J does today could easily be done with a computer or two, he just prefers the su700s and mpc. which incidentally are just computers that play samples.

[xfive]

Likewise what Speedy J does today could easily be done with a computer or two, he just prefers the su700s and mpc. which incidentally are just computers that play samples.

That's really the best point anyone can make. ;)

[davethedrummer]

Guys!

I don't know if this discussion was already done.
I see a lot of respected DJ's / producers going for Ableton:
Surgeon, Regis, James Ruskin, ....

And a lot of people call this Live PA's.
I totally disagree.
I don't think a live show would be very interesting if it isn't totally live.
I mean as a DJ your playing things that have been preprogrammed, fixed on vinyl. So basically a DJ does nothing more as reorganizing. You are not really creating something new, you always take something that already has been created. So you're actually reorganizing, rehashing it. A musician is one that makes something from absolutely nothing.

So this totally contradicts the definition of a live PA from a real musician.
And I think peopel are a little bit mixed up with the definition of doing a DJ set, or a Live set.

So what should we call the "Ableton" thing? LiveDJ, semi DJ or Live, or something else....


ritzi ,,,mate this is techno remember?
it's made with computers in the first place.
exactly how live can it possibly be???
ableton is way more open to realtime improvisation than many other programs.

come on mate, get real.
i mean if you want to see people banging bongos or something......

plus the dj thing
sorry but i utterly disdagree on that too.
when you mix 2 records together you do create something new and it's the human interaction that creates it.

which to me is live.
i mean a guitar doesn't play itself does it???

sorry but i think your arguement is really lame.

feel free to shoot me down.

[The Overfiend]

Great Topic and Discussion. :study:

[Col]

imo ableton/laptops are a musical instrument in themselves. i dont dismiss any artist who uses this option. just as long their is room for spontaneity i really dont see a problem.

[The Overfiend]

imo ableton/laptops are a musical instrument in themselves. i dont dismiss any artist who uses this option. just as long their is room for spontaneity i really dont see a problem.
:clap:

[davethedrummer]

imo ableton/laptops are a musical instrument in themselves. i dont dismiss any artist who uses this option. just as long their is room for spontaneity i really dont see a problem.


me too ;)

[dirty_bass]

As far as I`m concerned, the only live PA I ever saw was when our electric guy ****ed up the electrics at a party and blew himself clean across the room off a 3 phase supply.
fzzzzatttttt

[davethedrummer]

hehe

[Ritzi Lee]

Yo guys!
Really some great replies. :clap: :cool:

But explain me this argument:
If you play a piano, for example, the keys and strings are already there, you are kind of reorganizing the sound of the strings.....

Is a DJ a musician then?

A musician creates something with the intend of creating, composing with the intend to do so.

DJing is more random like a discovery type of thing.
He doesn't really know what comes. It's all momental,
and happens at that time when he does his thing.
Especially the thing Dave was talking about when you mix 2 records together...

[massplanck]

I dont really have a prob with abelton used in any paricular which way....

but I do have a problem with everyone using the same piece of software the whole time.

How interesting would the 60's have been if all them hippies had played on the same guitar with the same sonic capabilities and same eq. yawn.

Abelton makes stuff sound like its being played through abelton if you know what i mean.

[dan the acid man]

anything that is being created there and then, in front of your eye's, is live imo. whether that's 2 record's being mixed together, to tweaking effect's to full blown synth setup's, it's all live

[davethedrummer]

Is a DJ a musician then?

A musician creates something with the intend of creating, composing with the intend to do so.

DJing is more random like a discovery type of thing.
He doesn't really know what comes.

sorry ritzi but there's nothin random about djing.
it's creative and spontaneous but not random, well not for me anyway.
it's practised and perfected at the same time as being free and expressive

see what i mean?
random just isn't the word to describe it.
i see what your getting at
but i just have to insist that djing is live in EVERY sense of the word
it just isn't traditional music making , but that just means it's a modern means to an end.

both my parents are musicians ( pianists , my brother too my grandparents too and other members of my family , some are very well known for what they do.)
i'm really used to having traditional musicians around me and with a background like that you may think i would be fighting against things like djing,

but in fact when hip hop came along in the mid 80's i realised that making music was going to take a different path , and that's what i believe today

turntablism as its known now or just straight mixing
or three dex or adding fx or whatever , it's preformed live it can go wrong
it takes skill to make it work right and some people are better than others.

this is the very essence of live music.


watching a bunch of guys dancing around on stage to a prerecorded dat tape is not.
if you think about it THAT is what we should be talking about right there.

there's a few acts like that around. i've seen plenty and you really could take the guys off the stage and replace them with some remote controlled puppets and achieve exactly the same effect.

[davethedrummer]

How interesting would the 60's have been if all them hippies had played on the same guitar with the same sonic capabilities and same eq. yawn

they did mostly mate!
there wasn't anywhere near as much choice in the 60s as there is now

gibson les pauls / rickenbackers / fender strats

marshall amps / vox ac30's / fender jazz choruses

cry baby wah pedals (70s)

spring reverbs , analogue tape delays , natural tube distortion


(i'm salivating already)

[dan the acid man]

analogue tape delay's :love: :love: the watkins copy cat :love: :love:

[xfive]

How interesting would the 60's have been if all them hippies had played on the same guitar with the same sonic capabilities and same eq. yawn

they did mostly mate!
there wasn't anywhere near as much choice in the 60s as there is now

gibson les pauls / rickenbackers / fender strats

marshall amps / vox ac30's / fender jazz choruses

cry baby wah pedals (70s)

spring reverbs , analogue tape delays , natural tube distortion


(i'm salivating already)
Yeah, but I think the Dead were pretty well known though for heavily modding their instruments to get unique sounds.... probably some other groups too.

[Methodixxx]

How interesting would the 60's have been if all them hippies had played on the same guitar with the same sonic capabilities and same eq. yawn

they did mostly mate!
there wasn't anywhere near as much choice in the 60s as there is now

gibson les pauls / rickenbackers / fender strats

marshall amps / vox ac30's / fender jazz choruses

cry baby wah pedals (70s)

spring reverbs , analogue tape delays , natural tube distortion


(i'm salivating already)

Big Muff (stick that bitch onto a 303 :lol: )

The Fuzz (was that the other one hendrix used?)

[Methodixxx]

But yeah, great thread... it's so interesting to see other live acts and ways of playing... I'm totally with Henry in regards to djing too, there are ways of djing where you do basically the same thing as pressing play on a dat (ie. late mixes, easy non challenging stuff, knowing what your going to play, etc) but who here does that..? Playing 3 decks, or going crazy in a scratch routine leaves so much room for improvisation, trying new things, seeing what sounds work, etc, etc, etc... which is the true essence of a live performance in my mind...

Most bands that play gigs for example will have a set of songs they can choose from.. some will even know what order they are going to play them in... is that so much more live than a PA with only parts of a track sequenced, who totally changes his tracks on the spot in reaction to the crowd / situation...? I really don't think it is... Henry said it earlier, all the stuff we write techno with are still instruments, they are just a modern variation of a very old thing.. they still have to be perfected, you still have to practice, some people are still more gifted at what they do, etc, etc...

Good topic though and interesting to see different peoples views.. I'll stop ranting now ;)

[markus]

I think it's all personal preference really... Most people just make their music on a computer and break their tracks up into patterns to load onto their hardware or into Ableton for live PA. It doesn't matter whether you're using hardware or software, they'll both play your loops the same. Personally I enjoy playing my live PAs on hardware, but that's just my own personal preference. I know a lot of people that put on a good show using Ableton. They both have their ups and downs. With Ableton you run the very small chance of your laptop crashing while in the middle of a performance, but at the same time, it's a bitch to lug hardware around to gigs, and it's a little more work to load all of your samples onto your hardware and assign them to patterns and junk. But in my opinion, it's well worth the extra time.

[The Overfiend]

Welcome to Blackout Primal ;)

[Evil G]

i think live pa would be much more interesting it stood for prince albert, not public address. all eyes would be glued to the stage!

[The Overfiend]

PA = Pummel Adverse :lol:

[acidchild]

Very gray area. Some people can rock out using Ableton live. It has changed the way live techno is done. But unless there's some other element added to the laptop...it's kinda boring. To watch. I personaly wouldn't use a computer for live use, or to make music with. All my PAs are done with my machines in pattern play/write mode. I usually keep the TR-707 in write mode the whole time and add & subtract sounds on the fly. The MMT-8 and TB-303 are kept in pattern write mode. Sometimes i will bring a TR-505 with to trigger drum samples, and keep that i write mode. That is MY live pa set up. The definition of Live PAs has changed over the years. If the music is bangin' who cares! As long as you're not using pre-set sequences out of a groove box=o]