Sidechaining with a hardware compressor (sorry!)

[scotttechfunk]

Hey fellas. I know there's tons of posts on the forum about sidechaining, and I've read a good deal of them but I'm still struggling with this... Basically I have the following hardware - Yamaha MG16/4 mixer, Delta 44 sound card, Alesis 3630 compressor and a novation bassstation. Now, how should I go about sidechaining my kick drum so that it sits nicely with my bassline? What I'm currently doing (which doesn't work) is having my kick go out of audio output 1 on my sound card to mixer channel 1, and my bass going out of audio output 2 to mixer channel 2 then I run my bassline into my compressor through an insert I can hear the bassline being compressed out of the monitor channel (which is coming back in on delta audio in 1), however I somehow need to get the signal from the kick into the sidechain of the compressor and it's taxin' the ol' brain as to how to do it! I'm sure it's something simple that i'm missing. It's just everything I do seems to cut out the bass or cut out the kick etc etc. Does anyone have a similar sort of set up and can show me the light? I'll be eteeeeernally grateful for any pointers!

[scotttechfunk]

Here I am replying to my own message... I've read quite alot about these waves compressors and am starting to think that's the way to go I must admit...

[j_s]

The Waves VST compressors aren't all that great for sidechaining in that both signals have to be mono, which is a bit limiting....

The TC VSTs look more promising, but I've never been able to get it to work...

The db audioware DB-D seems pretty good and works in full stereo...

[DJZeMigL]

If u are just compressing Bass n Kick working in mono is just perfect!

On the hardware from...
U are doing everything right all u need now is for example 2 send an aux send from the kick into the Key Insert input of yer comp..

So basically u would b using the aux send as a "copy of yer kick" into the side chain... Use the aux in post-fader if u want the bassline 2 run uncompressed when u drop out the kick... or as pre-fade if u want the bassline compressed evn if the kick is mute or the fader down..

Let us know if it worked ;)

Z

[scotttechfunk]

I'm getting closer! Thanks for your help Ze MigL... I've done what you said and I can visibly see the compressor's gain reductions going up and down with each kick and I think my untrained ear can hear a slight dip in the bass when the kick hits (maybe its psychological!?)... I can certainly hear big differences when I bypass the compressor. I notice that the more kick I send through the send, the more compressed the bassline is, i assume this is because the signal is stronger through the side chain, is that right? however, how do I record all this back into cubase? At the moment I'm going straight from the compressor into audio input 2 on my soundcard to monitor in cubase, but when I record it only records the bassline, no kick. Thanks again ZeMIgL, you're a legend!

[TechMouse]

The Waves VST compressors aren't all that great for sidechaining in that both signals have to be mono, which is a bit limiting....

Presumably you can do it twice - once for each channel (left & right), then pan the result of each to left and right - thus achieving stereo?

Bit of a long way round, but it should work.

[DJZeMigL]

Bro,

I have 2 record each sound separatly...

But I get what the problem u'r arriving at... which is if u mute everything and just have the bass then it won't have the kick compressing it (thru the side chain) right??? No prob. Just make sure that in the sequencer u have both the kick and the bassline running, use the aux of the kick in pre-fade... record the kick first with the bassline muted 2 an audio track on yer sequencer, 2nd record another track with the bassline BUT LEAVE THE KICK's MIDI TRACK GOING ASWELL, ONLY NOW U MUTE THE KICK ON YER ACTUAL HARDWARE MIXER.... as the aux for the kick is pre-fader it still acts on the compressor but no sound from the kick passes thru!

Let us know if this sorts it or not!

Z

[scotttechfunk]

Yeah that's sorted it! Thanks ZeMigL, you da man. I must admit though, the idea of being able to do this without all the bouncing down to audio is sounding pretty tempting. Sound wise am I gaining much using an Alesis 3630 over the waves (or other software compressors)? I think I've not got my ins from my mixer back into the sound card quite right anyway, as everything comes back in really quietly. Do you use your group outs? Thanks again for your help though man, its well appreciated!

[DJZeMigL]

no prob. I don't know which sequencer U r using 2 record back, but Try and have yer signal as loud as possible without distorting, 'cuase that is the best way 2 garantee a good Signal 2 noise ratio... also u can always increase the rec level in yer soundcard input (either thru it's internal mixer or thru the input channel level fader on yer sequencer)... but it's always best that U get the signal as loud as pissible ans sensible from yer mixer into the soundcard then "amping" the input on the soundcard/ sequencer!!

Z

PS - U probably get a cleaner signal/ better response from plug ins like the waves than from yer Alesis (which is a bit harsh sounding... )

[scotttechfunk]

Wicked. Cheers mate. So would I be right in saying that by this method of side chaining my kick is not actually being compressed, only the bassline? I just wanna make sure my understanding of sidechaining is correct. I've just downloaded a demo of the DB audioware one and it seems pretty good, I've already got that side chaining - I set up a dummy project with a battery playing an 808 kick drum on one track, which was just triggering the compressor on a V Station track. I did notice that somehow it made my 808 kick drum which as we all know is normally quite boomy really 'top / mid heavy' so to speak, it lost all its bottom end. Is it supposed to work like that? I know it's supposed to make the two sit in the mix better together, but I thought that was achieved by dramatically reducing the low end of the bass rather than the kick.

[DJZeMigL]

the side chain only controls levels not bass/ eq... want u might notice is the sound being a little more upfront, thus the inter-relationship between frequencies is a little different but it's only a slight difference.

Basically with the sidechain U'll b playing with a sound's level but "looking" at another sound's peak's/ order's!


Z

[Evil G]

to throw an extra bit onto the pile - if you want to use your hardware compressor in dual mono mode, with kick in one side, bass in the other, and sidechain the bass to the kick, but you don't want to run a loop off of your soundcard to control the sidechain, you could take a balanced patch cord out of the sidechain of one channel, reverse the tip and ring of the other end, and bring it back in to the sidechain of the second channel.

[scotttechfunk]

I see, it's all making a bit more sense now. Something I'm still struggling with is this sudden jump in level when I ease off the kick though. For instance I have two tracks, a kick and a bassline, I have a DB Audioware VST compressor on the kick bypassed, with the send enabled to 'A'. I then have the same type of compressor on the bassline with the receive set to 'A'. That's all good, when my kick is pounding away it sounds great, bass is ducking nicely. However if I mute the kick, obviously no signal is getting through to the bassline compressor so the levels rise as the compression is eased off. So, I'm trying to work out how I can be in the situation where I can kill the volume of the kick but still have its signal going to the bassline compressor, in order to maintain a constantish level of compression on the bassline, know what I mean? ZeMigL you demonstrated a nice way with hardware, is it possible with software also? (Sorry, I feel like i'm hounding you with question after question, please know that your help is SOOOO appreciated!).

[Evil G]

use another track that contains a kick drum looping forever. use that to control your sidechain, but don't route it to your main mix. then when you mute your real kick drum without the compression jumping around.

[scotttechfunk]

Oh right Nice one Evil G, thanks for that. I've just tried it and what I did was bounced my kick loop to audio then put that on its own channel and as you say made that the controller for the bassline compressor. When I mute this track I can still hear the bassline ducking, I must admit I don't understand how though! If I mute a track surely its signal can't go anywhere? So how can it still be triggering the compressor?

[DJZeMig_L]

I gotta remember that an insert patch is one of the first route in a mixer meaning that it will pass thru basically everything till it get's to the fader/ pan ... so basically even if u use a mute, by having the comp in an insert, it is still doing it's thang ... think of it as a pre-fade Process!!


Z

[scotttechfunk]

Aaahhhhhhhhhhh! Cool. Once again you've clarified things for me Ze MigL. Thanks mate!

[DJZeMig_L]

;)

Z