gunjack
23-06-2005, 03:43 PM
to continue some of the ideas from the CmC thread, the ableton thread etc.
thoughts, questions on inovation....
first of all, i have been going back into modal, free and avant gard jazz, from the 60's to date. looking at this point in musical history as an era of concentrated inovation and "progress" these artists, bird, miles, coleman et. all were contradictory to say the least. lost tapes are still being found that shed new light on the oxymoron of "progress". had coletrane not died in one of his most conservative periods, might some random curve of play had brought back the exploration of his earlier career?
anyway fast forward to techno. these ideas of pushing forward, breaking boundaries etc. stem from the creative expressionism of this era very DIRECTLY. looking at the discussions here, one could easily subsitute the words - "experimental/dark techno" with "post bop/freejazz" and replace the dirty word: "trance" or "progresive" with "jazz crusado" or.... erm... "progressive" (lol)
the parallels are very obvious i know, but i would like to go into the diferences:
jazz era: one built one's career, or body of work based on live improv and touring. musicians only had to play well and find the right representation.
techno: look at the word "techno" juan used this word, diriving it from kraftwerk's interpretation of music "techological". anyway Hight technology is the name of the game, but the principles are the same. but this time, music is not all it is about. to be an "inovator" seems to me, to be more about exploiting new medias, our technology in order to move ahead.
how does one do that? by simply using technology to make tracks? well, i feel that since the origins of the "structure" we now refer to as techno, there have been many revelations and variations on the sound. the same thing happened to bop. some ppl went into making motown and pop (quincy jones, herbie hancock etc.) and others went into other territories like freejazz and avant gard (ornette, miles <pre 80's>, etc.) the same thing has happened with folks like beyer vs. folks like surgeon. did ppl give quicy and herbie shit for being "soft"? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. alot worse things were said about these two pioneers than "ikea music". and still, when one reflects on the impact they had, on music (dare i say pop) culture itself, respect must be given for the overwhelmingly immense changes these fellows brought about.
so the argument of some of these "purists" on the board about techno not having any thing to do with pop or even commercialism are really contradictory. herbie made "rock it" and the critics familiar with his groundbreaking appearences with miles etc. SCOFFED and dismised his new projects as FLUFF and commercialism. this track went on to spawn techno.
so now we come full circle. from dixieland to freejazz, to motown, to early electro, to techno.
the problem is that folks who get into techno were most likely born in the late 70's and early 80's and are usually not interested in study of how we got to where we are.
but beyond the "classic" ideals we discuss time and again here on boa, the lifestyle issue is something often overlooked by most of you "purits" here n the board.
techno. t e c h n o. the lifestyle we lead nowadays is so closely linked with new medias and technology that i feel the term techno goes way beyond just making beats or playing records.
the "purists" on the board will not disagree, i think, to the idea of a "responsibility" to push the boundries forward by pushing technology to the limit... but what boundries are we talking about? musically, if miles had put down the trumpet to "search for a new sound" we would never have had the structural inivations of "bitches brew" which were natural continuances of the traditional structures of pre bop jazz and the two decade old structures of rock. to put it simple, miles created new sub genres with every record, by reworking the "traditional" structures from the inside out.
but techno is not just about music. that sense of "responsibility" i mentioned earlier, somehow, inexplicably, has notcarried over into the other, essential mediums linked to techno, as much as one would think.
the idea of pushing technology as a means of expression, means that besides making fresh and intersting music with computers and machines etc. ...
we are "responsible" for expressing our ideas, imaging and information about our work in general through new and interesting, technological means.
but still i hear all these ppl complaining about "marketing", "success and the game" etc. what do you people think? that this is jazz? this is 2005 and we are not trumpet players who have managers and labels to work out the details for us.
techno started out diy and now this idea by the 4th wave that the generation above us owes us a living is just rediculous. it is up to us to use these emerging mediums to present ourselves, our ideas and work in general, to the interested parties (dare i say consumers?)
if we are not able to do that, we are simply half, or 3/4s of the "artists" we should be.
anyway this rant comes from a number of factors. the CmC debate. the dirty bass "next level" debate, my brother and i wrking in the studio for the last month and then having these discussions during playback... etc. etc. etc.
the points i think we should discuss are not the paralells i have been making about jazz, these are just examples, i feel we should be focusing more on MUSIC, ART, EXPRESSION and BUILDING A STRONG NETWORK OF FREE IDEAS, rather than, stumbling over new technolgies like ableton or max msp. there will always be a new platform, techno, even though it may sound stale to most of us right now, IS STILL MOVING. into what direction is up to us.
so guys, try to be a bit more open minded about new ideas, after all this music is less than a quarter of a century old. this is still just the second phase. electronic music isn't going to dissapear tomorrow, and even if it did, the modal ideas etc. we have created with this music would live on through instrumentation. so instead of thinking of the "new sound" as a new way of sequencing, new patches etc., when one stands back to look at the big picture, it is the nuances that we put into the music that defines our sound, the way we interpret the structures in which we work and reinterprate them is what defines our work. a miles solo, when looked at as notation, shoes not many inovative progressions or scale bending, the notes are quite simple and non-harmelodic. but to hear him play it. it aint the tone and position of his notes, it is the energy and feeling he somehow expressed through relatively simple ideas that made his work so genius.
anyway anybody understand WTF i am on about???
thoughts, questions on inovation....
first of all, i have been going back into modal, free and avant gard jazz, from the 60's to date. looking at this point in musical history as an era of concentrated inovation and "progress" these artists, bird, miles, coleman et. all were contradictory to say the least. lost tapes are still being found that shed new light on the oxymoron of "progress". had coletrane not died in one of his most conservative periods, might some random curve of play had brought back the exploration of his earlier career?
anyway fast forward to techno. these ideas of pushing forward, breaking boundaries etc. stem from the creative expressionism of this era very DIRECTLY. looking at the discussions here, one could easily subsitute the words - "experimental/dark techno" with "post bop/freejazz" and replace the dirty word: "trance" or "progresive" with "jazz crusado" or.... erm... "progressive" (lol)
the parallels are very obvious i know, but i would like to go into the diferences:
jazz era: one built one's career, or body of work based on live improv and touring. musicians only had to play well and find the right representation.
techno: look at the word "techno" juan used this word, diriving it from kraftwerk's interpretation of music "techological". anyway Hight technology is the name of the game, but the principles are the same. but this time, music is not all it is about. to be an "inovator" seems to me, to be more about exploiting new medias, our technology in order to move ahead.
how does one do that? by simply using technology to make tracks? well, i feel that since the origins of the "structure" we now refer to as techno, there have been many revelations and variations on the sound. the same thing happened to bop. some ppl went into making motown and pop (quincy jones, herbie hancock etc.) and others went into other territories like freejazz and avant gard (ornette, miles <pre 80's>, etc.) the same thing has happened with folks like beyer vs. folks like surgeon. did ppl give quicy and herbie shit for being "soft"? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. alot worse things were said about these two pioneers than "ikea music". and still, when one reflects on the impact they had, on music (dare i say pop) culture itself, respect must be given for the overwhelmingly immense changes these fellows brought about.
so the argument of some of these "purists" on the board about techno not having any thing to do with pop or even commercialism are really contradictory. herbie made "rock it" and the critics familiar with his groundbreaking appearences with miles etc. SCOFFED and dismised his new projects as FLUFF and commercialism. this track went on to spawn techno.
so now we come full circle. from dixieland to freejazz, to motown, to early electro, to techno.
the problem is that folks who get into techno were most likely born in the late 70's and early 80's and are usually not interested in study of how we got to where we are.
but beyond the "classic" ideals we discuss time and again here on boa, the lifestyle issue is something often overlooked by most of you "purits" here n the board.
techno. t e c h n o. the lifestyle we lead nowadays is so closely linked with new medias and technology that i feel the term techno goes way beyond just making beats or playing records.
the "purists" on the board will not disagree, i think, to the idea of a "responsibility" to push the boundries forward by pushing technology to the limit... but what boundries are we talking about? musically, if miles had put down the trumpet to "search for a new sound" we would never have had the structural inivations of "bitches brew" which were natural continuances of the traditional structures of pre bop jazz and the two decade old structures of rock. to put it simple, miles created new sub genres with every record, by reworking the "traditional" structures from the inside out.
but techno is not just about music. that sense of "responsibility" i mentioned earlier, somehow, inexplicably, has notcarried over into the other, essential mediums linked to techno, as much as one would think.
the idea of pushing technology as a means of expression, means that besides making fresh and intersting music with computers and machines etc. ...
we are "responsible" for expressing our ideas, imaging and information about our work in general through new and interesting, technological means.
but still i hear all these ppl complaining about "marketing", "success and the game" etc. what do you people think? that this is jazz? this is 2005 and we are not trumpet players who have managers and labels to work out the details for us.
techno started out diy and now this idea by the 4th wave that the generation above us owes us a living is just rediculous. it is up to us to use these emerging mediums to present ourselves, our ideas and work in general, to the interested parties (dare i say consumers?)
if we are not able to do that, we are simply half, or 3/4s of the "artists" we should be.
anyway this rant comes from a number of factors. the CmC debate. the dirty bass "next level" debate, my brother and i wrking in the studio for the last month and then having these discussions during playback... etc. etc. etc.
the points i think we should discuss are not the paralells i have been making about jazz, these are just examples, i feel we should be focusing more on MUSIC, ART, EXPRESSION and BUILDING A STRONG NETWORK OF FREE IDEAS, rather than, stumbling over new technolgies like ableton or max msp. there will always be a new platform, techno, even though it may sound stale to most of us right now, IS STILL MOVING. into what direction is up to us.
so guys, try to be a bit more open minded about new ideas, after all this music is less than a quarter of a century old. this is still just the second phase. electronic music isn't going to dissapear tomorrow, and even if it did, the modal ideas etc. we have created with this music would live on through instrumentation. so instead of thinking of the "new sound" as a new way of sequencing, new patches etc., when one stands back to look at the big picture, it is the nuances that we put into the music that defines our sound, the way we interpret the structures in which we work and reinterprate them is what defines our work. a miles solo, when looked at as notation, shoes not many inovative progressions or scale bending, the notes are quite simple and non-harmelodic. but to hear him play it. it aint the tone and position of his notes, it is the energy and feeling he somehow expressed through relatively simple ideas that made his work so genius.
anyway anybody understand WTF i am on about???