Marketing Vs Artistic Creativity

[MARKEG]

I took the idea for this topic from a previous post from tony/crime. toni is a distributor, crime is an artist:

take a step back and look at each other's perspective for a sec. toni - you're so right. music must be marketed and sold and therefore the need for genres and pigeonholes are essential. crime. from an artistic perpective genre's and pigeonholes are what makes you into a marketable product and you don't want this. ultimately it distances you from your beliefs in techno or new/innovative music.

you know, it's a tough call for all artists who believe in pushing boundaries to face up to the fact that their music needs to be marketed. marketing definitely takes away creativity in my eyes (although the making money aspect of it can actually add to it if you can afford some better equipment). This worries me like nothing else. It's like a constant battle in your head as an artist as to what you should/shouldn't be doing.

But also look at the distributors point of view. They can't market your product unless you bang the tracks out and market yourself in a sellable way. You need an image. You need a 'brand'. ie totally what techno is not about.

Perhaps this is the vicious circle that it proving to be a big problem with techno at the mo?

A problem for the artists. A problem with the distributors.

And perhaps why so many distributors are going down....

And perhaps why those who truly know the business side of things properly (eg Radio 1 etc etc) will take techno to a previously unknown level as a marketable brand and take away the creativity of the genre.

Your thoughts please....

I'm sure there will be many!!!!!

[davethedrummer]

marketing is what makes you say to yourself ...
"is this a good direction to be going in???"
while you are writing a tune in your studio and you've just stumbled on something that's really good but you're having trouble placing it in the greater scheme of things.ie labels you know and work for.
basically the exact opposite of what you should be thinking
ie" wow that's great let's do it again "etc etc ....
it ****ing drives me nuts
you put out a track and someone says "well it's not really a hydraulix record" or " that sounds just right for" ........

i mean that's what marketing has DONE to techno
because it's been so heavily invested in in the past the future has been panned out for us already
meaning you can't (well you can but you'll find it difficult to get it all released) do what you want musically. because the genres are there and the record buyers are used to that format
mess with the formula (and i don't mean the musical one) and risk selling bugger all records.
tough innit?

[crime]

As I said to Tony in the aformentioned thread, we're viewing it from 2 very different angles...
Personally, I did a couple of releases this year, that, whilst being competent, I didn't feel were really me, or what I wanted to be doing... I went for the dancefloor jugular, and while it worked, I felt the material was generic.. it's kind of ironic, as for one of the releases I was supposed to receive a reasonable sum of money as an advance, and I did feel like I was doing the records to earn some dollar.. I never got the money, the label seems to have taken me for a fool... now I feel that was a bit of a wrong move, and I should follow my heart, and just do what I want to do.... Giving in to commercial pressure is letting the tail wag the dog, and to be honest, after my recent experience, I'd rather have to take a day job, than sacrifice my artistic integrity... I have now secured 4 releases which take me back to my more experimental roots, and I must say I feel a lot happier for it....
As an artist you should be respected for what you do... If the distribution people feel they have to market it to sell it, that's no concern of mine, and to be honest, I have no interest in it... this is what the distribution people get their percentage for... I just write the stuff!
I do get what you mean in some ways about having an identity, but thinking about this too much can make you limit yourself in the diversity of stuff you put out... I've always been interested in a wide variety of music, and I'd like to think my productions reflect that...Maybe this has worked against me, because someone my hear one record of mine they don't like, and assume they wouldn't like any of it... but I'm not just going to stick to one thing to fit in comfortably... I think the thought that getting more money doesn't neccesarily makes the music better.. I think some of the best techno has been written on very limited kit, when the producer is hungry and skint, on the edge....
As I have said before, it seems to me like a lot of companies trying to earn a crust out of this scene are trying to play it safer and safer, and as a result, the music is less exciting, so less people buy it, so everyone plays safer repeat ad infinitum etc etc....

Personally, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing, I'd rather be broke, and pushing the boundaries, than not feeling happy with myself because I didn't do what I felt I was truely capable of... Doing my own thing seems to be paying off for me more anyway.... :wink:

[davethedrummer]

crime i totally respect where you are coming from!
that is definately the best angle for the music and for you as an artist.
however i'm in a situation where money and time and music HAVE to add up
if they don't i don't eat, my rent doesn't get paid and most importantly
i can't look after my son and my wife
what's a guy supposed to do?
i mean i LIKE my music ( mostly) i'm pretty happy with it and i go as far as can with it
but still a bit more freedom would be good.
i often ask myself why don't i just mix up some steetwise r+b with techno
and put it out?
y'know if it didn't sell it would be a waste of time (or would it????)
tell you what the best thing for me is
the suf collective at least i ALWAYS get paid!!!!!
i've done a few releases for other labels recently and some have paid but others haven't (naming no names)
it's the most irritating thing when people are digging your music and you know you ain't getting nothing

[MARKEG]

so surely the best things is to have two projects. the first is one that pays the rent and you basically try to be innovative but within the boundaries of a genre. then you have a second where you can really try to do something so radically different. and make sure you know that if you lose money on it, you're at least gonna be able to pay the rent!!!

this is something i'm really working towards right now.

but it's hard. if i was soley an artist and not paying my rent through djing i think this would not be possibre at all.....

[davethedrummer]

yeah that's the one for sure
but the time the time!!!!!
do you want a life???

[MARKEG]

yeah .. hahhaa.. you're right... it's hard enough doing the one thing.....

but you HAVE to do it. TIME management baby. One thing I've never understood but something I'm reallising perhaps could give me the time to really experiement.

[crime]

Can totally get with what you're saying about having the family to support... I went self employed this year, then met my girlfriend who's got 3 kids, because of lack of advance+cancelled gigs and a few other licencing rip offs, we're now financially screwed, phone's on the verge of getting cut off etc etc, I suppose I've never been in a position in this where I've been earning loads with my own label or anything, and felt I could maintain that by continuing the same thing or whatever, and strangely enough it's been pushing my more experimental stuff that's meant I have light at the end of the tunnel in a month or so... needless to say once I get this house move out of the way I'm going to be looking for some gainful employment....

[davethedrummer]

yes you are right
i shall get into the studio immediatley
just gonna eat this sandwich first and then a quick ciggy
oh then a coffe..... then maybe a quick shower ( can't sit in the studio smelling of wee) perhaps i'll just check the internet .........ah look there's a new message on the forum etc etc etc ...........

[crime]

ah look there's a new message on the forum etc etc etc ...........

Maybe if we concentrated our time on doing these projects instead of sitting on here we'd all get a lot more done!! 8)

[MARKEG]

totally and utter 100% respect to you crime.. but if you want to support yourself and your missuses 3 kids in life, surely you have to have money coming in and the key is not to make the main money you rely on something you 100000000% believe in. i love djing 99% (these days i have to pay the rent with it - it's my life!!!!!) but now my big new mission is production. so i try to make the djing something that runs clockwork and smooth and then that leaves me time to be in the studio to really do what i want to do and not feel pressured by business. hmmm...

i probably sound like an ass hole.

but it's true. for me djing was always my big passion but then i discovered production and i want that to be the thing that i can sit and not worry about money when i do it.

[MARKEG]

see what i mean about two projects?????????

[davethedrummer]

nice to have the choice mark
but your djing goes back a long time (like chris lib too)
it's pretty hard to get a regular djing schedule going for me
and i put some of it down to longevity, i just aint been around that long
and i'm still treated by some as a newcomer
i get a fair bit of work but it's tiring and thankless sometimes
and the pay is really up and down etc etc
production is more steady really because you create the work, you don't have to wait for sopmeone to book you
or rely on another person to give you a job.
you can produce put it out (not getting ripped off obviously) and there you go
i think crime is very smart to stick to his guns
everyone i know who has done this has succeded.
apathy or indecisiveness (i can't spell this) is the real killer

[crime]

totally and utter 100% respect to you crime.. but if you want to support yourself and your missuses 3 kids in life, surely you have to have money coming in and the key is not to make the main money you rely on something you 100000000% believe in. i love djing 99% but now my big new mission is production. so i try to make the djing something that runs clockwork and smooth and then that leaves me time to be in the studio to really do what i want to do and not feel pressured by business. hmmm...

i probably sound like an ass hole.

but it's true. for me djing was always my big passion but then i discovered production and i want that to be the thing that i can sit and not worry about money when i do it.

HAHA, don't worry man, you obviously love what you do, so there's nothing wrong with having that viewpoint.. You've been djing for enough years for it to be a lot more reliable for you, to be honest, it's where most of my income comes from too, and it's only been because I got recognised for what I do outside the UK.... I've just had a bad summer, and thing's will get sorted out at the year progresses....
I'm thinking broader than the techno thing anyway, I want to get more on the album plot, and I got a few things in the pipeline that could well work out good for me.. I'll just get a bit of work here and there for the dead spots until I can realise a lot of this stuff....
I think you can stick to your guns and make a living out of it... you've just got to play the long game...

[davethedrummer]

actually maybe i'm just a rubbish dj
hahahaha :lol:

[davethedrummer]

no you are quite right
now where did i put that sandwich????

[crime]

on the other: crime: try to make a more marketable project. bring the money in. get the 3 kids sorted. then you can concentrate on going forward? ????

I'd rather go for the day job, I just can't feel comfortable with myself doing the "Marketable" thing... my music just comes out as it is....having said that, I do have a few "Clubby" things I'm sat on, I just can't seem to find the right outlet for it....

[MARKEG]

hahaahahaha

no man... it's all about time in this game - you know that as much as i do. stick it out and you've got the best job in the world in the end :D

[davethedrummer]

huh
mark where's that post gone i just rplied to??

[MARKEG]

arrghhhhhhhhhhhh i pressed delete by mistake!!! grrrrrrrr...... it was really important too!!

[crime]

woah? what happened there? feel free to delete the quote if you want dude, looks like I'm putting words in your mouth! 8) delete this as well after....

[MARKEG]

sorry guys i've deleted that post by mistake!!!! too much red wine!!!!

[davethedrummer]

aaaah the ol' red wine trick eh?

[MARKEG]

shall i go and sit in the corner?????????

[MARKEG]

sorry!!!!!

[crime]

I've got a cone shaped hat with a big "D" on it if you like?? :lol:

[davethedrummer]

yeah don't forget your sandwich!

[MARKEG]

you bastards i feel silly now

[MARKEG]

can we get back to the discussion?????????????????????????? hehehehhehe.....

[MARKEG]

hey you two shall i delete these irelevant posts?

[davethedrummer]

sorry mark
let's wait till someone else suggests something outragous
then we'll forget it ever happened
and get straight back to arguing again.

[MARKEG]

np's... come on then - what does everyone else think?

[Jimfish]

aww man, i allways miss the best bits of a discussion - i spend half my waking life checking this feckin board and i STILL miss the good shiz...

I say absolutly: two projects is the way to go to make few quid and get some feeling of achievement at the same time.. this is actually what i do - cept i have several secret projects..
the other thing is to think what else we can do with our equipment/skills..
surround mixing? dvd authoring? tv production? engineering shite hard house for nugs with big chains round thier necks? not forgetting public toilet fellati...oh no, sorry thats just me.

Its all a bit cack, but if you force yourself to do stuff you wouldnt otherwise do to earn a few quid you actually do learn quite a bit (well, i have) so when you come to do your own stuff you have new techniques etc you can apply, which obviously is good for the creative process.

One point i would like to make here is when crime said somthing about it being the distributors job to market the record etc. Im not sure i agree - it seems a lot of peole expect too much from thier distributor, they are just there to sell in my eyes. IMO It is down to the label to make sure everyone knows who they are and create demand for the records. Could be misunderstsdin you here though as i cant see exactly what you wrote..

[crime]

One point i would like to make here is when crime said somthing about it being the distributors job to market the record etc. Im not sure i agree - it seems a lot of peole expect too much from thier distributor, they are just there to sell in my eyes. IMO It is down to the label to make sure everyone knows who they are and create demand for the records. Could be misunderstsdin you here though as i cant see exactly what you wrote..

What I meant was if the distributors want to see it as marketing then that's their lookout.....
I've got nothing against doing a few mailouts myself, getting a few reviews or a bit of radio play ... what i'm not into is watering down my sound in the hope it will sell better...

[Jimfish]

ah ha!

[wenna]

perhaps some ppl from, the forum (with money) can get together and start a distribution company??

i think we all know where each other are coming from (most of the time!) :idea:

[DJZeMig_L]

I'm for the having something 2 fall back into angle... But make sure U do something that doesn't take all yer time & inspiration...

I think in terms of music like all in life it's all about compromise... U have 2 find yer limits, and feel confortably within them...

Others create different "aka"s for different projects.. I think this is the most explored angle ... have a name like "I.dig.cash" and another like "this.is.the sh**.I.really.luv"...

Labels should market..

Distrib. should push records (but not just sit on they're ars** and wait 4 the orders 2 come in"..

Z

[Col]

As I said to Tony in the aformentioned thread, we're viewing it from 2 very different angles...
Personally, I did a couple of releases this year, that, whilst being competent, I didn't feel were really me, or what I wanted to be doing... I went for the dancefloor jugular, and while it worked, I felt the material was generic.. it's kind of ironic, as for one of the releases I was supposed to receive a reasonable sum of money as an advance, and I did feel like I was doing the records to earn some dollar.. I never got the money, the label seems to have taken me for a fool... now I feel that was a bit of a wrong move, and I should follow my heart, and just do what I want to do.... Giving in to commercial pressure is letting the tail wag the dog, and to be honest, after my recent experience, I'd rather have to take a day job, than sacrifice my artistic integrity... I have now secured 4 releases which take me back to my more experimental roots, and I must say I feel a lot happier for it....
As an artist you should be respected for what you do... If the distribution people feel they have to market it to sell it, that's no concern of mine, and to be honest, I have no interest in it... this is what the distribution people get their percentage for... I just write the stuff!
I do get what you mean in some ways about having an identity, but thinking about this too much can make you limit yourself in the diversity of stuff you put out... I've always been interested in a wide variety of music, and I'd like to think my productions reflect that...Maybe this has worked against me, because someone my hear one record of mine they don't like, and assume they wouldn't like any of it... but I'm not just going to stick to one thing to fit in comfortably... I think the thought that getting more money doesn't neccesarily makes the music better.. I think some of the best techno has been written on very limited kit, when the producer is hungry and skint, on the edge....
As I have said before, it seems to me like a lot of companies trying to earn a crust out of this scene are trying to play it safer and safer, and as a result, the music is less exciting, so less people buy it, so everyone plays safer repeat ad infinitum etc etc....

Personally, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing, I'd rather be broke, and pushing the boundaries, than not feeling happy with myself because I didn't do what I felt I was truely capable of... Doing my own thing seems to be paying off for me more anyway.... :wink:

respect to you man!

this is how every musician should think,
many people are willing to use their gift/talent to exploit music for all its worth, this is wrong, if you have to earn a living then find another job,
but dont exploit & spoil your passion for music, i cant understand why people do this, dont they have a conscience? at least you realised what you was doing was wrong, im glad to hear that, respect

p.s i hope yopu earn a bucket load from making innovative music
best of luck! :wink:

[AUYA]

hi guys, i´m from Brasil, my english is bad and i´d like to say something but i don´t know how...

so....Keep working!!!

dave i think you are in the right way, i like your productions and all the brazilians too...you got our respect, always bringing to us good techno (acid, hard, whatever...always good!!!). Open mind!!! Don´t limit yourselve!!! I know you don´t...

Hope you understand something!!!

I´m just waiting november to see you and chris lib again!!! this party will be very nice!!!

c ya!!!

[Jimfish]

ahhhhh! :wink:

[wenna]

ah! this is where i become snobby :lol:

i'm well against 'pushing' productions onto ppl. don't send ur lastest track to minestry(for example) they'll just nick all ur ideas and claim them for themselves. send it to ppl that u know respect the sound and will portray it in the right angle. i think this has been the downfall of several great labels (drizzly for example). saying that though Brain on Manifold (and wicked) :roll:

[eyes without a face]

excellent topic, very interesting read

Being someone who hasnt had a record released yet, and probably wont for a while mainly due to the fact that ive not yet completed anything that i regard as releasable and also the fact that ive only completed about 4 tracks anyway, i can see the arguments from all angles.

To me, being able to soley rely on Djing and/or production to earn my money sounds ideal. Obviously in reality its not ideal for everyone, people get ripped off, dont get work etc etc, but the idea of it to me is my main goal in life. I will have achieved my main ambitions in life the day i can honestly say that i earn a decent living thru my music. At the moment i work in a local factory, full time. Its not the best of jobs, but its by far not the worst. I have the best job in the factory, Hygiene assistant. I basically walk round most of the day making sure that the place is being kept tidy etc. I spend most of the day thinking up riffs and working on parts of tracks in my head, then i get home and scribble the ideas down on the PC. The point im making is that its good to have a full time job to keep the money coming in, i earn enough to keep myself entertained each week and i get to work on my music (albiet on a very different level to u guys) in the evening and wkends.

at the end of the day all we can do is keep pressing on with our tracks and hoping for the best hey