Hardcore Ideology?

[anode]

is there one for you? what does hardcore mean to you?

hardcore has evolved out of the rave scene...and become it's own...various styles within its self...

is it all about a kickin track or somthing more?

;)

[Ben Kidney]

Hmmmnnn..Hardcore..For me it's all about the rage, the blackness, the raw side of the soul as well as pushing boundaries/limits...Of late, with electronic music of this style, it seems to have gone along the path of technical ability with all passion and fresh ideas set to the side...I mean, you can now probably count on the fingers of one hand, the artists who put tracks out that actually let you peer into that persons heart, or envisage that moment as if it existed in your own memory...On the other hand technical ability is all well and good, as long as it's in keeping with the times, like Hardcore used to have going for it, now it's mainly just a rehash of age old ideas, anything that isn't gets pushed to the wayside because it doesn't sell, or it's not dancefloor enough...There's no 'Hard' about it, like someone I know said, "piss weak comedy", seems to be the flavour of the day, I mean IMO, Shitmat takes it too far and whoever that Scotch Egg idiot is, ****...It's shit like that, that is going to kill it, if it isn't already...

[anode]

nice words Ben Kidney!

indeed it should have a feeling of the Hardcore mindset and obviosly an insight into the producers personal beleifs etc...and i do agree all this comedy gore shock tactic 'hardcore' is just a joke and there seems to be only a minority who keep it going...

first and foremost i enjoy the darkness and crust...also im one for the more political edge sometimes...anti-establishment...

shock imagery and over the top nonsense about being evil etc is done to death and just a joke.

such offshoots as raggacore although thats a breakcore thing it ties in...is just stupid. most use these vocals because they like the sound...and quite often people are trying to combine their left politix with it when rasta is a highly sexist/homophobic mindset...

way too much time spent these days on technical issues...its becoming too clean and overproduced/compressed like pop music...pop mashups ****! i listen to this music to break well away from that shit.

more thoughts people?

keep it HARDcore - Industrial - Acidic - Anti-Authoritarian - Break the Rules but dont let it become a joke.

:)

[Ben Kidney]

Shame, thought there'd be more interest in this post...


shock imagery and over the top nonsense about being evil etc is done to death and just a joke.

Damned right, pure shoickingness/evil isn't about speaking of it directly, it's conveyed in the feeling of the track...That raw, pure, drive that makes true hardcore, hardcore...It just cannot be repicated via technical ability, played to death horror samples or any other technique either...


its becoming too clean and overproduced/compressed like pop music..

Exactly, to me, it feels like it's the artists ability that is put first and foremost these days, as if it's some kind of competition...It's all well and good in the right context, but to base your music solely on that is defeating the object in my book...

[The Teknoist]

awesome question, il answer when i finish what i gotta do today :)

[The Teknoist]

its a tough thing to answer this.. it obviously means something different to different people.

Unlike Sid its not all about rage and blackness for me, it never has.. i mean there are moments yes but tbh it makes me feel really good and full of life when listening/writing core. Alot of people go on about it makes them feel like killing someone or something yknow but iv never felt that way. I always want to try and escape the dark side of my soul/mind and always have.

It excilerates me and picks me up more than anything/anyone ever could. Its so exciting to hear new, fresh sounding stuff but tbf thats the same with any type of music i like.

Iv always written what just comes out of me.. not sat down and thought, 'right i wanna do loadsa technical sounding stuff and thats it.. it just sometimes comes out that way. At the end of the day thats the way it comes out. Granted alot is dancefloor driven stuff but thats just what comes out, i have adhd so im pretty hyperactive alot of the time and lose concentration alot so some stuff may sound really random n scattered at times.

Im not the biggest fan of the noveltycore thing, its been done to death but when you want to try and just practice some edits n try shit out a pop mash up is pretty fun and helps u discover some of the vsts and plugs u have lying around yknow.. i dont think id release anything like that though. Maybe a bonus track on an album or suttin?!

I dont really like making rougher sounding stuff like say, raw amen breakcore or stuff that sounds a lil cheap, not bad cheap but more raw and dirty (u get me?) but just because iv got a cleaner style and try and spend time on post production n whathavyou doesnt make it less from the heart or true.

Alot of people are quite fast to jump to an idea of how a producer thinks/works by just hearing their tunes but you cant really do this and have a valid opinion without speaking to them first about it. You may find your wrong. Fair, there is alot of rubbish saturating the market but its always going to happen i guess and alot of producers are just spoon feeding people what they think will sell but not all. There is a few of us that want to put down how we feel or want other people to feel but also we want to better ourselves as people and producers by learning as much as we can and putting everything into use. To us thats the equivalent of the latest computer game to gamers, i hope u get what im saying there :)

As for the political side of it, yes id say im a bit of an anti-authoritiarian but i think alot of people take it too far. Its music first and foremost and in a way an escape (or should be) an escape from polotics bollocks of any kind. The ragga breakcore thing i love in moderation. I love dub and reggae and couldnt give a damn about the rastafarian views it comes from.. it pleases my ears 1st and foremost and thats not something i can choose. Iv you ear likes something, you cant argue with it and talk yourself out of it. Then again, i never know the words of any songs with vocals because i cant really hear them, its just another tone/layer of sound that fluctuates to me.

i hope that answers the question okay?

peaz

[tocsin]

I just don't agree with the concept that music should be an escape. Not saying it can't be. But "should be?" I respect and enjoy music more that makes me think. I have my own ideology that is in no way connected with any flavor-of-the-month movement or pop genre. Don't care what anyone says but, hardcore is very much "pop." It will reinvent itself to sell. A number of tracks I've worked on are political. Around 75-80% of the ones that are released have a political message. But, it's a bit more subtle and often pretty tongue in cheek. A number of people probably wouldn't make the connects unless they knew track titles. I've got some fairly obvious ones too but try to avoid that. I've found that most artists who really beat your head in with their political point like it's a brick are just way too pompous for me to take. Self-important apathetic exploitative schmucks writing subpar dance music while pretending they are better than the rest for having a message. :roll: Many artists have messages
in their songs. They just don't need to shout it in your face all the time. ;)

So, I dunno. I don't buy any concept of hardcore ideology. When others do, and I'm in the middle of it, it basically kills what makes hardcore music appealing to me in the first place, and that is the freedom to write that which I enjoy without being nit-picked over issues that don't objectively have shit to do with the music. Rather, it's just scenesters' subjective baggage.

[Ben Kidney]

Some pretty cool ideas there, I agree, it is the purity, or was, that keeps me holding on...I don't sway for agendas, the whole anti - establishment thing that people have going on just doesn't interest me, like you said Tocsin, "way too pompous for me to take."...

Like I said, it's the purity, the unadulterated, raw feeling that I love, for me, that comes with rage, hatred, pain, whatever...It's untainted...No hidden agendas...No format to fit into...No numbers, if you get what I mean...

[The Teknoist]

I just don't agree with the concept that music should be an escape. Not saying it can't be. But "should be?" .

yeh fair one... i mis-typed there really.. what i meant is it can be and is for me.. i lose track of what i say when typing alot.

all really good points.. everyone who does love it though, love it with an unrivalled passion. You have to really i guess, its not trendy and never will be and you really do have to love it to be into it if you get me.

respect to all of you

[tocsin]

Nah, I hear ya. It's text so it's easy to leave stuff out in interests of being brief. ;) The tracks where people repeatedly shout their message at me, almost like a pop song, usually bother me (depends how it's done). I try to avoid them. This is probably the most over-bearing track I worked on that got released and it's pretty damn subtle compared to a number of the "anti-authority" shit I've heard. It's basically a dis on the music industry celebrating the problems (aka. freedom for artists) created by MP3.

http://acidgrave.gabber.org/b3_deadsector-low_key_-_dancing_on_your_grave-sq.mp3

[anode]

nice words all!

i think number one for me is that the music itself brings awarenes and perhaps feeds or at least shows that i, like everyone has a DARK side. that certainly does not mean EVIL! too many people confuse the 2...

i think i have always prefered the darker harder sounds whether ive been listening to electronic or electric music...to unleash my rage, anger darkness through music and feel good at the same time...everything else is an extra element.

if you find the music makes you straight out angry wanting to kill the person next to you and fill you with unessesary rage...basically if it fills you with what it should actually only take away from you...perhaps it is not the right thing for you..but if it fills you with rage etc and you use that energy toward the positive then more power to you!

;)

[tocsin]

Hehe.
No hardcore track ever filled me with rage. Guess it hits me from the exact opposite end. Basically, I consider it the satire of techno. I really didn't start having a problem with people until some started to imprint an ideology on the sound. Unlike just about every genre of techno, which had it's bullshit politics, cliche image, etc., in NYC at least, none of this really existed for hardcore. And, during the hey-day of rave in NYC, with diva vocals singing about love over, at tops, a 140bpm beat, I thought it was ****ing hilarious when I'd hear a track like "Ya Mutha" by DOA, or any other hardcore act. It just felt very tongue in cheek which I enjoyed. Hell, Lenny Dee basically kept the NYC hardcore scene alive, if not created it, with Industrial Strength and he's done some pretty cheesey house tracks. But, then he puts out the Berzerker and DOA. Just felt like a big joke with a really catchy and aggressive energy. I really enjoyed it. My falling out came around when people seemed to start taking shit seriously and hardcore seemed to lose it's sense of humor.

[Ben Kidney]

That's one way of looking at it I suppose, but by losing its sense of humour, didn't that give rise to something else??? Gave it more substance (for want of a better word) in some respects...To me, the end of that era was the birth of the music that I love, or it at least paved the way for it anyway...

[Flood]

Personally i find that making a track is an avenue of thought where there's a tangible way of venting frustrations, anxiety and anger at ideals, people and/or general situations on life that you otherwise could not express. For instance, being young looking i get a lot of hassle buying drink, getting into clubs etc. Now u can't go about punhing shop clerks or attacking bouncers so instead i'd try and stream it through a track in an aggressive fashion, this make sense? aye it's about putting forward your thoughts and feelings into audio so ppl can hera how u feel, whether it's always clear isn't guaranteed to myself it's crystal. Just my wee banter btw ;)

[anode]

definately makes sense to me Flood!

turning the negative into a positive, bang on! ;)

[DJ Enigma]

Absolute beast of a topic and some very interesting perspectives...

At work right now but i'll have a good think and respond tonight..

[djfurness]

I cant agree with there being an 'ideology' to be honest...and I find comments like Sid's to be silly to be honest...fair enough if thats how you feel...but it all just sounds a little OTT to me...
What I want from Hardcore is a tune which will make me Birkenhead Bop or a tune which make mes raise my finger and wave it + gives me an uncontrollable urge to shout 'fuccccccccccccccccccccck arrrrrrrrrrrrf'

[Ben Kidney]

Et tu mate...I want a little more than just something to dance or laugh at from my music ...Silly of me to wish for these things I know, especially from Hardcore these days...

[The Teknoist]

Come on Dave, im intrigued to hear your reply :)

[tocsin]

It wasn't just about laughing. It was a mix. But the sense of humor was there. The prob I have now is that a lot of the European producers, particularly the dutch crowd, pretend this shit is so serious that the sense of humor is gone. Usually, when I do a silly political track, which is serious, it's also got a mix of humor to make the point. But, so many people have turned so anal, and pretend it's all about production, that it's lost some of its punch. 10 years ago, none of us doing the NYC hardcoe shit gave a **** about production quality. But the world liked it anyways. Why did this change? True taste or bullshit hype?

[Ben Kidney]

Good point..I mean, there's definitely genuine artists out ther who are meticulous and take pride in what they're putting out and that's a good thing in some respects...But like you say, when other aspects are left by the wayside and more emphasis is put only into that, it does detract from the quality and feel of it...

[The Teknoist]

i think wanting to learn and get as much as possible and use as much as possible while producing is a natural thing tbh. I dont think that just because some people spend alot of time on production that it always takes the feel away from a track and i dont think that its being anal alot of the time.. its just the feeling the want to be the best you can and produce the best you can.

I do know what you mean when saying some dutch producers take themselves and hardcore far too seriously, i just think its funny as hell.

The thing is though, the world started not to like the NYC and older hardcore shit after a while which is why things had to progress and how would that be done? Learning new things, making production tighter (or tbh just different i guess).

Yeah alot of stuff sounds overproduced and feels like it has no soul (every audiogenic release in the last 2 years) but theres more stuff that lacks production skills and soul and just sounds like thrown down amens in sf acid or a 909 with offbeat open hats. Just because it sounds raw doesnt mean it has soul. :) once again, i hope i got my point over okay haha

[DJ Enigma]

Come on Dave, im intrigued to hear your reply

Yeh it's took me a while to consider my response lol...

I guess really for me, when i started listening to it many moons ago.. I just loved the agression and the release in a passive and non destructive way.... Soul and emotion never came into it because it was all 'techno' back then and i've never seen techno as a soulfull sound anyway... Besides which my lifestyle was so drug fuelled anyway, emotions became clouded...

For me it was a rebellious sound, unacceptable and unlistenable by 'normal' society.. We were different, shunned and sometimes ridiculed, but that's what made it all the more appealing..

Over the years so many influences have come and gone and i guess that everything runs it's course in the end... So in that respect, there cannot be an 'ideology' in my opinion as the sounds have constantly mutated and progressed..

Not being a producer i can't really give a rounded perspective but what i've learned from the people i know is that they are all driven and inspired in different ways. Which is the beauty behind this music because in essence, anything goes.... Good Hardcore should not be bound by rules or restrictions and a producer should express themselves in whatever way they feel, whether they apply emotional content, satirical humour or a political message or even if they just want to show off their production techniques it all makes for an interesting melting pot of ideas....

From the perspective of being a dj, i like the variety of influences i can draw from to construct a set, i can take a mix through a variety of levels and styles with the beginning and the end being so far removed from eachother, yet allowing it to flow through peaks and troughs to it's conclusion. I get my buzz from working a crowd and watching a dancefloor fill.. I've turned empty rooms into full ones and vice versa but what's been most important is self gratification. Pure selfishness at times as i've played what I want to hear whether it's been appropiate to the theme of the night or not. There's nothing better though than seeing a room packed with people dripping with sweat, banging their heads and jumping about insanely with every record i spin...

For me, there isn't an idealogy only a whole heap of influences people can draw from that, at a base level basically send out a message of "if you don't like, **** you i don't give a shit".... If you can't appreciate the gratification a 200bpm kick can deliver, then you'll never understand........

[tocsin]

an when saying some dutch producers take themselves and hardcore far too seriously, i just think its funny as hell.

The thing is though, the world started not to like the NYC and older hardcore shit after a while which is why things had to progress and how would that be done? Learning new things, making production tighter (or tbh just different i guess).

Funny. And here I was thinking that a number of people just took the NYC sound, gave it a new genre name, and then pretended it was their own. :p But, seriously, I really dunno how any scene got tired of the NYC sound. The NYC sound basically died before people got sick of it. Most of the NYC hardcore producers for the "NYC Hardcore" era just stopped producing. Lenny Dee will still do stuff. I'm wishing Carl Carinci and Sal Mineo were still doing stuff. I never got sick of their sound.

yeah, i loved sal mineo.. i guess most did stop producing before it got too tired but im sure you got my point.

[The Teknoist]

an when saying some dutch producers take themselves and hardcore far too seriously, i just think its funny as hell.

The thing is though, the world started not to like the NYC and older hardcore shit after a while which is why things had to progress and how would that be done? Learning new things, making production tighter (or tbh just different i guess).

Funny. And here I was thinking that a number of people just took the NYC sound, gave it a new genre name, and then pretended it was their own. :p But, seriously, I really dunno how any scene got tired of the NYC sound. The NYC sound basically died before people got sick of it. Most of the NYC hardcore producers for the "NYC Hardcore" era just stopped producing. Lenny Dee will still do stuff. I'm wishing Carl Carinci and Sal Mineo were still doing stuff. I never got sick of their sound.

yeah, i loved sal mineo.. i guess most did stop producing before it got too tired but im sure you got my point.

yeah, i guess most of it stopped before it was too late but im sure you realise the point i was initialy trying to make.

Sal Mineo used to be one of my favs also :)

[tocsin]

I get what you're saying. I guess just the whole "the world got sick of the NY sound" line always rubs me the wrong way. I remember it being chic to make that claim when "newstyle" became the big craze from a lot of the dutch. Meanwhile, the world hadn't gotten sick of the NYC sound. Rather, one of the people who was a central figure in it died and the rest of the people involved either almost stopped producing entirely or went on to new things. For all the dutch producers that take themselves so seriously and pretend whatever "new" sound is so cutting edge in Holland, I've heard nothing but subtale variation come out of Holland for the past decade. The NYC sound was not a subtle variation. The French sound was not a subtle variation. The stuff coming out of the UK for a bit with Deathchant was not a subtle variation. The sound of Bloody Fist and crew was not a subtle variation. They were all new takes on techno/hardcore. Yet, the Dutch producers with the egos have done what? Oh, yeah, they slowed
down, or sped up slightly, the same shit that DJ Paul started with virtually no straying from that formula. Throw some reverb on it and hit some black keys, and all of a sudden it's a new ****ing genre that revolutionary? Please. :p

So, yeah, just me ranting. That line of logic, particularly when attributed to Dutch producers, just conjures a lot of negative memories from around 98. ;) When the sound died in NYC, it was just starting to get big. I really doubt people would be sick of it by now if they can still listen to synth stabby gabber in Europe where, when you throw a little distortion and filter work on the shit, everyone pretends it's ****ing industrial. :p

[anode]

tocsin i think you needa check ya ego if you think theres nothin much new about the hardcore scene since the NYC sound.

i used to get into it sure but there is no denying that that sound was quite RAVE based in its sound and hardcore since then has moved forward for the better.

even back in ...95...stuff like Outcast Clan/Crapshoot was in my mind a hell of a lot better and pushing boundaries with their breed of Industrial Acid Hardcore..

i generally dont stay upfront with whats happening in any genre but the last hardcore i bought was stuff by John Dark and Psykotropp...some crazy phuturistic hardcore there!

old Skullblower **** that was some mad driving core to the bone! nothin like NYC Hardcore.

peace.

[DJ Enigma]

Back to the topic... ;)

I guess if there is a hardcore ideology it would be for it to be a way of life... Total immersion in the music, the people, the parties and everything in life that went with it...

Since i left university and joined the 'real world' of work i've steadily lost touch with what it all really meant to me with the change in my priorities... To be honest i'm pretty ****ing resentful of what's happened and i'm only beginning to realise now how far of the path of ideals i've really gone.. The dreams i had 3 years ago have been slowly quoshed by reality and it's sucking the energy out of me.....

It's something i've had to do in order to eventually get back onto it though.. Pay off debts, make some money, get my own house and get to a place where i can rejoin that lifestyle and sustain it, without being answerable to anyone..

Musically i've given more thought to what makes me tick and it's only after reading elsewhere that i found the words to describe what i love about hardcore... I love music to have a narrative, something in the music that has a progressesion but doesn't necessarily have to convey a message.. You can apply that globally to every influence of good hardcore. I guess a narrative is at the heart of the artists expression, without which the music, as Ben Kidney has touched, lacks heart....

[tocsin]

tocsin i think you needa check ya ego if you think theres nothin much new about the hardcore scene since the NYC sound.

Hold up! That is NOT what I said at all.


i used to get into it sure but there is no denying that that sound was quite RAVE based in its sound and hardcore since then has moved forward for the better.

Don't see the point here unless "rave" is a dirty word. But, whatever. At the raves here, it's the "dutch" sound that still gets played the most, just as it was back then, because it's barely strayed from DJ Paul's formula. Thus, when dutch producers have dropped that line about NYC, I take issue with it.

Either way, I think you're reading more into what I said. I'm hardly pretending that NYC was the be all end all sound. I just disagree with the concept that people got sick of it and that's why it stopped. Being here and experiencing the shit that happened, it literally died. It was it's own sound with it's own small core scene that, for a short period of time, got kinda big until it self-destructed.

[Ben Kidney]

And that fair enough for back then...I suppose it's gotta be a good thing that stuff like that still gets played at 'raves', the only things you get at raves here is happycore and D.J. Paul...Anyways, the point is, people moved on, and so did the music, eventually, as they should, like I've said before, there's no point without progress...And some progression is what is needed here and now, it's a vicious circle, people catch onto a good thing, play it to death, love it for a few years then **** it off...That's where we are now, again, at the ****ing off stage...IMO...

[anode]

tocsin i think you needa check ya ego if you think theres nothin much new about the hardcore scene since the NYC sound.

Hold up! That is NOT what I said at all.


i used to get into it sure but there is no denying that that sound was quite RAVE based in its sound and hardcore since then has moved forward for the better.

Don't see the point here unless "rave" is a dirty word. But, whatever. At the raves here, it's the "dutch" sound that still gets played the most, just as it was back then, because it's barely strayed from DJ Paul's formula. Thus, when dutch producers have dropped that line about NYC, I take issue with it.

Either way, I think you're reading more into what I said. I'm hardly pretending that NYC was the be all end all sound. I just disagree with the concept that people got sick of it and that's why it stopped. Being here and experiencing the shit that happened, it literally died. It was it's own sound with it's own small core scene that, for a short period of time, got kinda big until it self-destructed.

ok no worries. a simple misunderstanding via net forum communication... im sure

id much rather hear the NYC stuff at a 'rave' than that awful dutch stuff for sure!

havnt really heard any IS records type releases of late but they still have the same style as always yer? even german artists are makin that sound still im sure...

[tocsin]

Nah, it's cool. I just wanted to be sure I was being clear. I'm not the type of fool that pretends that a certain region produced the pinnacle of hardcore techno, with everything coming afterwards being shit. If hardcore techno died around the time the NYC sound did, I'd have stopped listening. But, in my opinion, right around that time the UK and France were putting out some killer new sounds which are probably my favorites to this day. Hell, I don't even like NYC. I just unfortunately live close by. ;)