Credit Crunch vs Arrogance of Big Names

[The_Laughing_Man]

I speak to a lot of promoters, as a lot of mates put on events all over the place.
And whenever we have banter about money the same subject comes up.

People have less money these days, as the credit crunch is starting to bite.
Some clubs are dropping their prices to reflect, as people have less disposable income, staying in is the new going out apparently.
Some bars are also dropping their prices.

Yet many DJ`s in the scene still wanna ride the high fees like it is still 1998.

What is this doing for the scene?

Well, the medium to small events now have a bigger struggle, as hotel prices and flight prices are a little harder to meet.
They struggle to keep numbers up and many are saying the wages that the big names charge are no longer reflecting their pull on the door.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee I say to the big lads.
Maybe take a little less charlie, and stop being such a diva, or the scene will crumble beneath you.

[The Overfiend]

I'll remember that next time I ask to cover my gas money to drive to a venue. Lolz

[The_Laughing_Man]

I'll remember that next time I ask to cover my gas money to drive to a venue. Lolz

Well,
your not a big name nor are asking for a ridiculous credit crunch defying fee though are you?
Getting your gas money should be the very least you should get.

[rhythmtech]

i agree. more artists need to base their wages on the club door prices and capacity rather than what they are used to getting when things were going great.

having said that its perfectly understandable when a big name turns down a low paying job in favour of waiting for a better paid one. afterall EVERYONE needs to put food on the table.

[The_Laughing_Man]

having said that its perfectly understandable when a big name turns down a low paying job in favour of waiting for a better paid one. afterall EVERYONE needs to put food on the table.

Of course, that isn`t the issue here though

[BloodStar]

yeah, this is pretty interesting topic.

I absolutly agree with you on this Steve,. As I told you on MSN, presonally i feel this will keep techno in dead circle. I mean, artists asking for silly prices, not reflecting situation on the market, promoters of clubnights, for let say 300-500 people with smaller budgets than huge rave parties will not gonna take risks and pay it. What is the way forward from this dead circle??

I am being pretty sceptic about it, at least in place where i live.

[lunatrick]

I'm not sure which names you are talking about (I could hazard an educated guess though!) but most of the artists we put on at the Holodeck have probably had their rate actually cut in the last decade....certainly it's not really gone up, and in at least one case I can think of we pay around half of what was first paid by a friend to a particular DJ in around '98. That may just reflect his pulling power or status though I suppose.

Certainly the big names - Clark, Cox, Vath, Picotto, Hawtin have probably had wider exposure to bigger audiences through Ibiza and so now probably command way bigger fees.....but we don't book those kind of dj's - too much of a risk in Cardiff and not really our crowd anyway...

Personally I think most 'name' techno DJ's normally charge around 5 - 800 quid for an average size venue which seems reasonable

[djfilthmonger]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/KENNO001/10djsprint.jpg

In Waterford 3 promoters got together and have put on a succesion of djs each week. this is so successfully that they are on a part 2 with more good acts. house and techno. gigs are usually about 20 euros in Waterford.

[DannyBlack]

I was chatting to a couple of them Filthmonger. They are oozing money because of the recession sessions. They are losing lots. I agree with Steve, from what I can gather from a couple of the big DJz, the prices are still entirely unreasonable.

I'm actually nervous about the next Grenade, because it is finaced only by me and if I don't get the punters, my pocket is hit. Tough times really.

[djfilthmonger]

I was chatting to a couple of them Filthmonger. They are oozing money because of the recession sessions. They are losing lots. I agree with Steve, from what I can gather from a couple of the big DJz, the prices are still entirely unreasonable.

I'm actually nervous about the next Grenade, because it is finaced only by me and if I don't get the punters, my pocket is hit. Tough times really.

really . ah dose i taught it was going okay. yeah man hope grenade goes well for ya. its hard to get people in to these new nights especially with loads of stuff happening in Waterford at the moment. when is the next one actually Danny?

[DannyBlack]

Haven't sorted a date yet, my finances are pretty ****ed for the next month so more than likely looking at June.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I was chatting to a couple of them Filthmonger. They are oozing money because of the recession sessions. They are losing lots. I agree with Steve, from what I can gather from a couple of the big DJz, the prices are still entirely unreasonable.



This is the point.
More and more parties are operating at a loss, yet talking to agents and artists, the fees have remained mostly static, and silly demands such as 5 start hotels etc still get thrown about.
When the cost of the party outways the pull of the main acts certain things need to be re-addressed.

Now I`m keeping my feet well out of the promotion game, bar helping out some mates doing interesting things, so this really doesn`t effect me.
But it does effect a lot of people I know, and a lot of em are kinda on their last legs.
If we see these reasonable to mid sized events dissapear due to apathy and lack of money, what will this do to the scene?

All we will have left are the mostly souless megaraves, where you will tend to see the same names.

I`m not proposing DJ`s work for free, but I think more communication, and working WITH the promoters a little more is needed.
Obviously contracts etc are still required to protect ourselves and so on, but for those playing other peoples music, as a career, I think a little more forsight is needed to protect their jobs.

[DJPAUZE]

Well our techno scene crumbled here in Toronto a few years back. I don't think it had to do with money issues though, more politics and society.

Just curious, any examples you can give in terms of the issue you have brought forth Steve? What do you think is reasonable or unreasonable?

I haven't heard anything about outrageous prices from anyone I have been talking to abroad.

Most of the big names that draw in thousands (Tiesto, Cox, Deep Dish) have upped their fees as far as I know. I guess they know their names are making people a lot of money and want a bigger portion of the pie.

Would be nice if peeps could throw out some examples of loot being made these days from well travelled techno dj's...

[DannyBlack]

Not wanting to mention any names but a friend of mine enquired about a pretty big swedish techno name. The Price was €3000. Thats minus the 5 star hotel.

Silly really. When you can get MUCH better DJs without the exposure for a LOT less. It's just the name you pay for.

[The Overfiend]

I think these (ego-minded) dj's need to remember they are asking to command high prices to do something that could easily be done by an audience member.
All people are paying for is a name and an emotionless face bobbing their head behind tables. People demanding Five Star hotels and bottles of Whiskey and such really need to remember what in essence they are asking to be paid for.

[Loop]

Im throwning a wee do in London soon, small venue, fantastic vibe and system,reasonably large names coming in at around 1000- 1500 pounds, **** them all, its a total piss take, ive decided to put on some cool bubbling artists, take a risk and work to get a crowd. Wish me luck.

[Igneous]

I think its like anything when it comes down to money, especially with the big names.

At the end of the day, DJs are only worth the money people/promoters are willing to pay. If they are too much for what they bring to the club night then after a while, promoters will stop booking them. The DJ then probley will have to lower his/her fee to get gigs.

If the scene dies out then no money for any DJs so it sorts its self out in the end.

Money always ****s up dance music scenes but pros need to earn money like anyone else.

[SlavikSvensk]

I think its like anything when it comes down to money, especially with the big names.

At the end of the day, DJs are only worth the money people/promoters are willing to pay. If they are too much for what they bring to the club night then after a while, promoters will stop booking them. The DJ then probley will have to lower his/her fee to get gigs.

If the scene dies out then no money for any DJs so it sorts its self out in the end.

Money always ****s up dance music scenes but pros need to earn money like anyone else.

well put, and i agree.

but if they refuse to follow the market and cut their fees, they also **** the scene

[Darkmode]

well put, and i agree.

but if they refuse to follow the market and cut their fees, they also **** the scene


I agree I think greed has totally ****ed up the dance music scene in general

[TechMouse]

All the more reason to book some lesser known guys.

[DarkYoung]

All the more reason to book some lesser known guys.

i'll take a packet of pork scratchings and a can of tennants super-strength.

[davethedrummer]

I think it's a bit too easy to take pot shots at well known djs for asking for high fees
it's more the promoters for massaging their egos and letting them get away with it.
I get horror stories regularly , sometimes by the very promoters who I am playing for.....
now thats weird.

I keep my fee low , but i push it up when i can ( festivals etc )
but if you are used to playing awakening , Monegros , I love Techno, Ibiza etc etc etc
then i guess you assume you can get that kind of money everywhere
and if people pay it to you and lose out a result then.........

the change has to come from the inside
new faces, getting their mates down to see them play and working with the venues
to create a scene that will last and go forward.
and possibly earn dosh , also production is a must these days for any artist
and that is a major job in itself , not just writing the odd track
but promoting and getting good labels interested.

Most venues will book a well known guy once a month or so just to keep their crowd interested
even when they know they will lose out.
it's no good just putting unknown people on week after week
you'll never move forward like that , even the really underground clubs do it
it's just relative thats all , for example chris lib and myself are big names in the acid techno world
but only there nowhere else , we never play I love techno or anything similar
I get asked why not all the time , but the truth is they've just never booked me.
but small promoters around the country take a chance on us to help promote their clubs and their residents , I can't say it's always successful but sometimes it works really well.
and thats the way it is on a larger scale too.

There is no end to this argument
you just can't wind the clock back or forward , people like jeff mills and dave clark and all that
are who they are for a reason , and that reason is based on longevity and strength of past music.
If you can keep it up for as long as they have , and come up with real amazing concepts and major changes in the music then you can have a crack at the whip too
but I'm going to admit it is WAY harder to do that now !
what with the dance music industry being completely sewn up
by a relatively small group of major promoters and artists.
your best bet is to get with the underground and work your way through that.
it does happen, I see people moving forward all the time , it just boils down to hard work.
and it's best not to gripe about other djs wages or anything
cos t.b.h. it's really none of your business
and professionally it doesn't help you at all.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I`d say you are very fair and accommodating though, and you don`t make stupid additional demands.
If I was promoting I know I could confidently book you and not expect bullshit, and I would be more happy to hand you extra dough at the end of the night if the event went well.
Apart from the odd asshole I`m hopeful that a lot of promoters see you this way as well.

I think it is everyones business to an extent, techno is small enough to be something like a community again, it`s not a gripe about wages, I don`t promote, but I don`t like seeing other promoters jump though hoops to get people they respect to play for them, supporting the scene with all the really hard work of actually making the events happen, and a lot of the time handing out money from their own pockets, only to be treated like just another sap there to pay Mr X`s wages and to put rose petals down for their hallowed footsteps.

No names need to be named, I`m just voicing what I hear from promoters all the time when I shoot the shit with them.

[morbid]

I think it depends who youre talking about

There are good guys and dickheads out there, ego plays a big part in it.

Depends on where they've come from as well, a lot of big UK names that started out on the squat / free party scene have a good attitude when it comes to what they want and what they expect, despite being internationaly recognised and commanding high fee's at big events.

If youre doing a small party, smallish venue and you go about it in the right way you can get names like Dave Drummer, Immersion, Liberators etc for what I would consider good money.

Obviously if you want to fly in Frankie Bones or Beltram or anyone thats been there since day 1 youre going to have to massage their ego's a bit - and I dont mean any offence with that.

There are legends and there are local legends in my book, as a promoter you have to go with whatever works for your particular night.

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

Its very easy for promoters to blame The big names for charging too much. But why not dig out some new talent? I don't believe there is a lack of talent out there. I just think promoters don't know how to and don't care to seek it out.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Its very easy for promoters to blame The big names for charging too much. But why not dig out some new talent? I don't believe there is a lack of talent out there. I just think promoters don't know how to and don't care to seek it out.

It is difficult to play risks on new talent.
Somepromoters do get a good balance though

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

You can go to a gig with big names and it be shit. Whats more important the DJs reputation or the promoters/party organizers?

[The_Laughing_Man]

the both go hand in hand

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

the both go hand in hand


I don't agree at all. A bad promoter who books a good DJ does not make for a good party. There are a lot of other factors. A good promoter with a strong reputation can put on a good gig with out the big names and it can still be a great night. The best nights I have been too, I didn't even know who was playing and I am quite sure they weren't big names.

Nights with big names usually disappoint me. Too much hype and pretentiousness and less money in my pocket for substances.

[basslinejunkie]

I don't agree at all. A bad promoter who books a good DJ does not make for a good party. There are a lot of other factors. A good promoter with a strong reputation can put on a good gig with out the big names and it can still be a great night. The best nights I have been too, I didn't even know who was playing and I am quite sure they weren't big names.

Nights with big names usually disappoint me. Too much hype and pretentiousness and less money in my pocket for substances.

you are in the small minority though of die hards.

90% of people will not go to a night without one of their faves playing.or atleast someone they have heard of.

[Patrick DSP]

and now for something completely different...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_fldwTQaG4

[DannyBlack]

It is difficult to play risks on new talent.
Somepromoters do get a good balance though


as new talent it is hard to get your name out there. who's cock do you have to gobble? I mean I'M BLOODY FREE!

[djfilthmonger]

as new talent it is hard to get your name out there. who's cock do you have to gobble? I mean I'M BLOODY FREE!

They dont call you Danny Gobblecock Mills for nothing

[DannyBlack]

Clearly they do call me that for nothing! I have no sodding gigs.

[The_Laughing_Man]

and now for something completely different...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_fldwTQaG4

hard to argue with that
god bless familly guy, the new messiah for the ages

[The Overfiend]

and it's best not to gripe about other djs wages or anything
cos t.b.h. it's really none of your business
and professionally it doesn't help you at all.

Such a good point.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Such a good point.

not really, no one is griping about wages, it`s about attitude and also looking further on than just one week ahead.

But it is easier to just shut up, bend over and take it up the ass.

A big problem with this game, and another point altogether.
PEople to scared to say what`s on their mind because it might jeapordise a gig, a release or whatever.
Way too much brown nosing.

[The Overfiend]

I hope you are not being on the offensive...

I did not say YOU were griping about wages at all.
I agreed with a point he made about minding our own business.
If someone asked me how much I got paid to do something artistic, I would politely tell them to kick rocks walking.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with that, then it's yours and not mine.
I have nothing to gain by agreeing with Henry's post.

[Sunil]

Well, no-one is putting a gun to many of these promoters' heads forcing them to book an act. If in this climate they can't broker a good deal, then they either aren't doing their job well, or that artist just isn't worth booking.
Don't just blame the djs either. Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent :)

The business flights thing, paying to bring tour managers over etc. is horse shit for sure - although if you are Carl Cox or someone then that won't be a problem, he's gonna sell your club out, so there's no problem.
In techno at the moment, I think there are loads of people that are willing to cut a deal, while on another hand there are some that haven't accepted that they need to take a drop - like you mentioned DB. Then of course there are those who feel that by reducing their fee will depreciate their general value. Y'know it's catch 22 when you get into that area of things - for smaller scale gigs especially - if a promoter gets a dj for a bargain, he/she is likely to put in less effort promoting it because there is less on the line, and often the gig can be crap. Likewise, if a fee is dropped, word starts to spead about that with other promoters, which may not be a positive thing for the dj.

Where there's a bigger fee or costs on the table, you can be guaranteed that the promoter will be trying a lot more, which often leads to a better and more well attended gig. All of these things taken into consideration though, I think it's still safe to say that things are pretty ****ed at the moment! Nothing is a guarantee, other than a very select few names.. In terms of underground techno, I think there are problems related to the music too, and the fact that it isn't followed as closely by younger generations coming through at all.. We've had this conversation before, but nothing's changed since. 2004 was where it all started to change I think :(

It's time for more promoters to take risks though. All that can be achieved at this stage for many is to go for broke, and break in newer (or already established) inexpensive names. There's more to putting on gigs than firing a name or two on a poster, there are many ways to create or buzz around a gig if you have good ideas and the right people around you. One surefire way is to build up new unknown local djs to do warm up slots, that will bring their mates etc. (you need to choose wisely as well). If you are starting gigs to put on just you, your mates and a big name, then you could be making a fatal mistake.. you need to share the load, bring as much new support to the night, and then capitalise on that when you put on a big name. Then hopefully the helicopter rides, powder, champagne etc. for the guest won't be a problem to have to fork out on!

Any perspective techno night that think banging it out for a full night is going to be a success, should just give up now. The proof has been there for ages that these nights don't last, and that venues don't like it either. Build up to the heavy stuff, and make sure you have enough material that girls might really like to move to too :) Lastly.. maybe just throw out the whole idea of a techno only night, or an any one-type-of-genre night: if you're going to do that it should probably be a night of indie electro, disco punk or whatever is hot right now.

[DarkYoung]

I hope you are not being on the offensive...

I did not say YOU were griping about wages at all.
I agreed with a point he made about minding our own business.
If someone asked me how much I got paid to do something artistic, I would politely tell them to kick rocks walking.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with that, then it's yours and not mine.
I have nothing to gain by agreeing with Henry's post.

calm down Tony ffs. its only a messageboard.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I hope you are not being on the offensive...

I did not say YOU were griping about wages at all.
I agreed with a point he made about minding our own business.
If someone asked me how much I got paid to do something artistic, I would politely tell them to kick rocks walking.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with that, then it's yours and not mine.
I have nothing to gain by agreeing with Henry's post.

I have no problem
I was merely making a reply, rather impling anything about yourself.
That is what the reply button is for no?


DJing is more craft than art IMO, although not always.

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

you are in the small minority though of die hards.

90% of people will not go to a night without one of their faves playing.or atleast someone they have heard of.

post your source.

[The Overfiend]

Right, I have this bridge I'm selling.
It goes from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
Only serious inquiries garner a response.

[judas_beast]

Personally, I love dance music!

[The_Laughing_Man]

Right, I have this bridge I'm selling.
It goes from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
Only serious inquiries garner a response.

Why would anyone buy that?
Burn it down surely, keep the riff raff out of manhatten

[BloodStar]

@Sunil: I pretty much agree with you, but dont fully get your statement about promoters should start taking risks,etc. I dont get this. Sorry, but if someone starts to recommend me to take risks, I answer "come on, you dont even know what it means, taking risk." -this is nothing aimed to you Sunil, but more likely generic call.

I strongly recommend to everyone, go and book your venue, pay for lights and sound, do a strong promotion, hook with the DJs and pay their fees, do all the hard job in party prep, if you will be lucky you not loose,.... If you loose money, you can be happy because you did SOMETHING for techno music, hehe, and next time please take more risks ;-]

Making parties is two sides coin, and there should be more communication between promoter and DJ as both of these cant live one without the other,. This is where I feel kind of arrogance coming from DJside. Yeah, I see there is possibly many bastards so called promoters out there, who is chasing artists for money and doesnt stand by the conditions agreed and signed in the contract, that's another story.

Doesnt want to look like I am crying here wanting to change something what cannot be changed as this is the business part of thing which lives its own life, but nevermind,. One day, when there will not be a promoter who wants to pay the dj fees, noone interested in techno music, no techno parties at all, maybe then Djs will wake up. Of course respect to anyone who is doing their thing and who is open to any communication about fees and stuff.. keep it up.

[Jay Pace]

post your source.

If you promote a night, you tend to notice that more people come down for big names. Sorry, what was your source again?


Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent

Yeah, bit of a problem that. If you're running on a knife edge whacking on an agent fee, and having to haggle with someone with no particular interest in your night is tricky. I've got friends who were pissed off to learn that their agent didn't bother passing on bookings, because they decided the y weren't worth enough. And that basically boiled down to "for what they are offering, my cut is too small to bother with". There's a bit of a conflict of interests at work, and I can understand why busy djs would want agents but I'd much rather speak with artists directly.

We usually go for a mix of friends, up-and comers and big names. Keeps things interesting enough, lets us all play and gets some new faces out there. But part of the reputation of the night has been built on the people we book and the atmosphere they help create. A lot of big names are big names simply because they are exceptional at what they do, its not all hype and bollocks.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Well, no-one is putting a gun to many of these promoters' heads forcing them to book an act. If in this climate they can't broker a good deal, then they either aren't doing their job well, or that artist just isn't worth booking.
Don't just blame the djs either. Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent :)

The business flights thing, paying to bring tour managers over etc. is horse shit for sure - although if you are Carl Cox or someone then that won't be a problem, he's gonna sell your club out, so there's no problem.
In techno at the moment, I think there are loads of people that are willing to cut a deal, while on another hand there are some that haven't accepted that they need to take a drop - like you mentioned DB. Then of course there are those who feel that by reducing their fee will depreciate their general value. Y'know it's catch 22 when you get into that area of things - for smaller scale gigs especially - if a promoter gets a dj for a bargain, he/she is likely to put in less effort promoting it because there is less on the line, and often the gig can be crap. Likewise, if a fee is dropped, word starts to spead about that with other promoters, which may not be a positive thing for the dj.

Where there's a bigger fee or costs on the table, you can be guaranteed that the promoter will be trying a lot more, which often leads to a better and more well attended gig. All of these things taken into consideration though, I think it's still safe to say that things are pretty ****ed at the moment! Nothing is a guarantee, other than a very select few names.. In terms of underground techno, I think there are problems related to the music too, and the fact that it isn't followed as closely by younger generations coming through at all.. We've had this conversation before, but nothing's changed since. 2004 was where it all started to change I think :(

It's time for more promoters to take risks though. All that can be achieved at this stage for many is to go for broke, and break in newer (or already established) inexpensive names. There's more to putting on gigs than firing a name or two on a poster, there are many ways to create or buzz around a gig if you have good ideas and the right people around you. One surefire way is to build up new unknown local djs to do warm up slots, that will bring their mates etc. (you need to choose wisely as well). If you are starting gigs to put on just you, your mates and a big name, then you could be making a fatal mistake.. you need to share the load, bring as much new support to the night, and then capitalise on that when you put on a big name. Then hopefully the helicopter rides, powder, champagne etc. for the guest won't be a problem to have to fork out on!

Any perspective techno night that think banging it out for a full night is going to be a success, should just give up now. The proof has been there for ages that these nights don't last, and that venues don't like it either. Build up to the heavy stuff, and make sure you have enough material that girls might really like to move to too :) Lastly.. maybe just throw out the whole idea of a techno only night, or an any one-type-of-genre night: if you're going to do that it should probably be a night of indie electro, disco punk or whatever is hot right now.

Great post, I agree.
More communication is what we really need at the bottom line.
And more discussions like this, where no maklice is intented, but, things are talked in straight lines rather than accomodating for ego ro brown nosing for points or whatever.
More talk between promoters.
More talk between promoters and acts.
More talk between Agents and Promoters.
etc
The lines of communication need to be opened more so a little more consensus can be made during these times.
A DJ dropping their fee for a smaller venue doesn`t mean they have to always drop their fee. Just make it clear that a bigger venue = bigger fee etc.

I didn`t start this topic to moan and bitch, as really, it has no direct effect on me per se, I just wanted to see ideas and communication as I know a lot of people effected.
Better we talk honestly in all areas than just turn into nodding yesmen.

[Sunil]

@Sunil: I pretty much agree with you, but dont fully get your statement about promoters should start taking risks,etc. I dont get this. Sorry, but if someone starts to recommend me to take risks, I answer "come on, you dont even know what it means, taking risk." -this is nothing aimed to you Sunil, but more likely generic call.


Well, right now putting on a gig of any sort is a risk, so what I'm suggesting is that in these challenging times, which is essentially gonna be the biggest transition we have experienced in the club scene in a long time, it is important that we come out the other side with the make up of A, B, and C league 'names' having changed a bit. The techno scene has been stagnant in this regard for a long time, even though many new producers have been coming through, deserving of more exposure in the way of gigs. Does it make sense that practically all of the people that can fill a venue are guys that are all pushing 40 or over? (and that's not disrespecting them, many of them should be there without doubt).
I think the problem more often than not, in trying achieve what I'm saying, is that many promoters start too big (either with the size of venue or name), instead of starting smaller and more manageable, building it up more 'organically' for want of a better word.
Sure, "taking risks" is easy for me or anyone else to throw around... but while we're at this stage, and with so many emerging names willing and able to do gigs for not loads of money, maybe it's time to see this reflected in more lineups. The techno scene needs freshening up and this is one of the only ways to do it.

[Martin Dust]

Some in interesting points, in Sheffield you lose about 40% of crowd if it rains, strange fact but it's still hold true.

[The Overfiend]

As for taking risks and booking lesser known names, I can see the only promoter rebuttle being the return on investment.
Unfortunately a promoters job is not to be a talent philanthropist.
They are going to want to book who will make all ends paid plus profit.
It's like flipping a brick, no one does it to see other people happy and high.

[Sunil]

A lot of big names are big names simply because they are exceptional at what they do, its not all hype and bollocks.

For sure. It's too easy to level criticism at all of the dj 'establishment' out there, when in fact some are still true professionals and still great at what they do.
Actually on the subject of fees etc: I did hear about one quite prominent techno dj dropping his fee last year, even before the recession was officially here - so I guess not all of them aren't as deluded as some might think!

[Sunil]

Great post, I agree.
More communication is what we really need at the bottom line.
And more discussions like this, where no maklice is intented, but, things are talked in straight lines rather than accomodating for ego ro brown nosing for points or whatever.


Nice one.
Yeah, I'd kinda given up on messageboards, and BOA particularly, but discussions like this every so often definitely don't do any harm..

[The_Laughing_Man]

I think the problem more often than not, in trying achieve what I'm saying, is that many promoters start too big (either with the size of venue or name), instead of starting smaller and more manageable, building it up more 'organically' for want of a better word.


Yes I agree.
This is in part due to the instant fix generation though.

You get promoters who try to start too big because they want instant success and huge parties, rather than building a fan base from ground up.
This does cause a lot of stress both for big acts who maybe don`t get paid (or smaller acts) for their work, and causes promoters who maybe intend well to give up hope when really they just didn`t think clearly.

Same with production, too many guys have fruity loops for a year and bang out a tune or start a label thinking they are a pro, rather than actually listening and learning and putting in the time to get to a standard.
Thus we have a billion labels on juno now half of which sound like amateur rubbish and don`t do any favours for the music as a whole.

There seems to be little patience or commitment to hard work a lot of the time in these problems.

[The Overfiend]

Steve how much of your own revenue are you investing to fix the problem as you say? If the solution is grassroots and up and starts at the individual then where are all of the raves or parties being thrown on a major scale with people involved in the music actively participating and contributing.
The fault is everyone's.
You can't complain about everything and gripe to solve the problem.
If someone starts a label it's because they want to release what that individual defines as quality, or good.
All of the classic most people rave about, you can hear the samples plain as day when you hear it. Down to the loop, things change man.
All of the above doesn't mean the market is not there. It is just harder to sell.
Especially to a market where everyone knows exactly how you constructed your track and could pretty much use a DIY method to recreate it.
Times are changing and you either adapt adopt and apply or cry about how things will never be the same.
Bunch of negative nancies sometimes.

[The_Laughing_Man]

You only read the negatives.

Change for the + comes from debate.
Yesmen make nothing for the future.

This thread, has pretty much been a proper debate, questions and solutions are being offered as far as I can read.
Those that fear debate need not take part.

As for my own personal investment.
What does my revenue invested have anything to do with?
I helped and am still involved in Club TED.
An event that only books live pa`s of across the board dance music.
About 70% of the pa`s that we book have been producers who have wanted to play live but didn`t know how.
I tutored them in live pa, then we booked them in TED and most are now gigging all over the shop doing live pa`s in their respective fields.
I still tutor people on live pa`s and am now investing a lot of time to become an ableton certified trainer so I can continue to run pa workshops, and hopefully by the end of year, I will also be doing production workshops around europe.

I`ve had many producers also in my studio for production sessions and offer an open door policy to people I speak to, to come down and stay at my place for a few days to run their tracks and get mix advice assistance and tutoring.

If they can travel to my place the rest is free.

I am in fact mastering the BOA Noise Network label for free and have just finished it today.

Also with my friend Steve, who you yourself know, a legal expert in music copyright and media in general, I put people to him as he offers pro bono advice and help with music legal matters. As well as helping people out with basics such as dealing with distributers, manufacture etc

We also via the level-1 network offer free radio broadcast services, in-club live broadcast services and much more.

I do as much as I can whilst still doing my own thing, to answer your question.

Of course everything I do is very very negative and contributes nothing to anything.

[The Overfiend]

I do as much as I can whilst still doing my own thing, to answer your question..

That's all one could really ask for then isn't it.
I am just saying if we want things done better.
WE have to be the ones to destroy the garbage and rebuild it from scratch our own way.

[The_Laughing_Man]

and surely to help each other we need to discuss and debate the matter?

[The Overfiend]

The problem is not how much money the big names are making.
It's what are we doing on the grassroots level to build from the "mistakes" or "oversights" of others before us.

[The_Laughing_Man]

The problem is not how much money the big names are making.
It's what are we doing on the grassroots level to build from the "mistakes" or "oversights" of others before us.

depends what problem you are talking about.
There are many.
And I think you miss the entire point of this thread by focusing on what the DJ`s are earning.

It`s not about that.
It`s about fairness, facing up to the times, working with the scene rather than above it, arrogance, and of course, the fact that all agents are spawns of satan.

Some people have been and are very fair, very amenable, and very savvy.
There is no black and white, merely a sea of grey.

Grass roots stuff needs to be dealt with, but so does the middle and the top

[clubsynthetic]

Well, no-one is putting a gun to many of these promoters' heads forcing them to book an act. If in this climate they can't broker a good deal, then they either aren't doing their job well, or that artist just isn't worth booking.
Don't just blame the djs either. Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent :)

The business flights thing, paying to bring tour managers over etc. is horse shit for sure - although if you are Carl Cox or someone then that won't be a problem, he's gonna sell your club out, so there's no problem.
In techno at the moment, I think there are loads of people that are willing to cut a deal, while on another hand there are some that haven't accepted that they need to take a drop - like you mentioned DB. Then of course there are those who feel that by reducing their fee will depreciate their general value. Y'know it's catch 22 when you get into that area of things - for smaller scale gigs especially - if a promoter gets a dj for a bargain, he/she is likely to put in less effort promoting it because there is less on the line, and often the gig can be crap. Likewise, if a fee is dropped, word starts to spead about that with other promoters, which may not be a positive thing for the dj.

Where there's a bigger fee or costs on the table, you can be guaranteed that the promoter will be trying a lot more, which often leads to a better and more well attended gig. All of these things taken into consideration though, I think it's still safe to say that things are pretty ****ed at the moment! Nothing is a guarantee, other than a very select few names.. In terms of underground techno, I think there are problems related to the music too, and the fact that it isn't followed as closely by younger generations coming through at all.. We've had this conversation before, but nothing's changed since. 2004 was where it all started to change I think :(

It's time for more promoters to take risks though. All that can be achieved at this stage for many is to go for broke, and break in newer (or already established) inexpensive names. There's more to putting on gigs than firing a name or two on a poster, there are many ways to create or buzz around a gig if you have good ideas and the right people around you. One surefire way is to build up new unknown local djs to do warm up slots, that will bring their mates etc. (you need to choose wisely as well). If you are starting gigs to put on just you, your mates and a big name, then you could be making a fatal mistake.. you need to share the load, bring as much new support to the night, and then capitalise on that when you put on a big name. Then hopefully the helicopter rides, powder, champagne etc. for the guest won't be a problem to have to fork out on!

Any perspective techno night that think banging it out for a full night is going to be a success, should just give up now. The proof has been there for ages that these nights don't last, and that venues don't like it either. Build up to the heavy stuff, and make sure you have enough material that girls might really like to move to too :) Lastly.. maybe just throw out the whole idea of a techno only night, or an any one-type-of-genre night: if you're going to do that it should probably be a night of indie electro, disco punk or whatever is hot right now.

Thats a good point!

In other words promoters... TUFF TATTIES.

We all loose money as promoters, so get someone talented and cheap to start the cycle again..

[DarkYoung]

Thats a good point!

In other words promoters... TUFF TATTIES.

We all loose money as promoters, so get someone talented and cheap to start the cycle again..

i think the problem is that there is no real scene.
i know im well past it now. but there is no real scene everything is fragmented.
soemthing new and innovative needs to be born.
like disco, house, techno.
maybe through all the suffering the world is going through now, somewhere some movement will be born, because at the moment, everything imo is degenerating.

[The Overfiend]

antichrist is not so much a person as a principle, the principle which is actively opposed to God and which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those in every generation who have seemed to be blatant opponents of God

[DarkYoung]

antichrist is not so much a person as a principle, the principle which is actively opposed to God and which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those in every generation who have seemed to be blatant opponents of God

Freud called it the Thanos principle. The Death Instinct.
Satan El is the angel, god sends to test Job.
Satan is god's corrupt form here on this planet aswell u know.

[BloodStar]

I think the problem more often than not, in trying achieve what I'm saying, is that many promoters start too big (either with the size of venue or name), instead of starting smaller and more manageable, building it up more 'organically' for want of a better word.
Sure, "taking risks" is easy for me or anyone else to throw around... but while we're at this stage, and with so many emerging names willing and able to do gigs for not loads of money, maybe it's time to see this reflected in more lineups. The techno scene needs freshening up and this is one of the only ways to do it.
Even I agree this would be very refreshing for the scene that old guys start being slowly substituted by new upcoming talents. This could bring new fresh wind to things, but it will take time, tho. People will not start coming to club to hear unknown djs and acts, it will need some support from internet servers and media.

Then we are again on topic of taking risks and donating techno. Why donate it all the time???

One day, It must deffinitelly be succesful as old known techno names cant be gigging forever so no matter when the change comes, it will come, thats for sure. I hope we will not be too old when it comes, hehe.

[DarkYoung]

http://www.youtube.com/v/0dQo0fNaQx0

this is what young people think of your big techno names

[...Dave...]

i think the problem is that there is no real scene.
i know im well past it now. but there is no real scene everything is fragmented.
soemthing new and innovative needs to be born.
like disco, house, techno.
maybe through all the suffering the world is going through now, somewhere some movement will be born, because at the moment, everything imo is degenerating.


good point dude.

something will come of of this depression we are in at the moment for sure.

[lunatrick]

it's called dubstep isn't it?

[DarkYoung]

it's called dubstep isn't it?


no dude. i mean a movement. dubstep is hardly a movement like disco, house or techno is it?

[The Overfiend]

Freud called it the Thanos principle. The Death Instinct.
Satan El is the angel, god sends to test Job.
Satan is god's corrupt form here on this planet aswell u know.

By the beast, then, coming up out of the earth, he means the kingdom of Antichrist; and by the two horns he means him and the false prophet after him. And in speaking of “the horns being like a lamb,” he means that he will make himself like the Son of God, and set himself forward as king. And the terms, “he spake like a dragon,” mean that he is a deceiver, and not truthful.

So we are all guilty of carrying on this behaviour

[DarkYoung]

Genesis 20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father; but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

[drift9]

you guys are kind of freaking me out.

[The Overfiend]

"it is uncertain in what temple [the Antichrist] shall sit, whether in that ruin of the temple which was built by Solomon, or in the Church"

That's crazy.

[SlavikSvensk]

Thousands of years ago, these hunters found a backwater planet. They taught humans how to build, and were worshiped as gods. Every hundred years, the gods would return. And when they did, they would expect a sacrifice. Humans were used to breed the ultimate prey. The hunters would battle with these great serpents to prove themselves worthy to carry the mark. But if the hunters lost, they made sure nothing survived. An entire civilization wiped out overnight.

[gunjack]

no dude. i mean a movement. dubstep is hardly a movement like disco, house or techno is it?



WTF???? dubstep is EXACTLY like those movements... dubstep IS a movement that rose out of the ashes of garage and techno (!) the way techno rose from the ashes of p funk/industrial etc, the way that house came from the death of disco and the way disco came from the last days of fusion...

i mean i personally hate most typical "dubstep" tunes but there is no denying it is a valid musical movement and has opened many doors for producers like myself to reach more fans and take more musical risks...

[DarkYoung]

WTF???? dubstep is EXACTLY like those movements... dubstep IS a movement that rose out of the ashes of garage and techno (!) the way techno rose from the ashes of p funk/industrial etc, the way that house came from the death of disco and the way disco came from the last days of fusion...

i mean i personally hate most typical "dubstep" tunes but there is no denying it is a valid musical movement and has opened many doors for producers like myself to reach more fans and take more musical risks...


well obviously i'm missing something.

with dubstep being more underground than Josef Fritzl's basement.

i hardly think dubstep is the new disco or house movement.

[clubsynthetic]

scene this, scene that ;)

[clubsynthetic]

Its all in cyles likes. Sooner or later folk will become interested in the local stuff again. Because it's all going mad with money. People change, techno doesn't (maybe more intriqute but still the same genre). I feel there is techno thats just as brilliant as what was coming out when it was first derived :D

folk will cotton on i think and fresh things will happen/are happening.

Despite this post, i really find chatting about DJs expensive habits and fees like watching "a place in the sun" or some other ****ing shit we can never afford at a time like this.

For ****s sake if you have a club that gets a decent amount of folk in regularly book me cheap as **** and in the words of Arnie - "QUIT YOUR WHINING"

[gunjack]

well obviously i'm missing something.

with dubstep being more underground than Josef Fritzl's basement.

i hardly think dubstep is the new disco or house movement.

snoop dogg begs to differ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iOp-C1hQ8k

[gunjack]

i think that tune is quite poor but you get the idea. i think "dubstep" is another vehicle for getting advanced production techniques into the forefront of music consumption, what could be wrong with that? thats what disco, techno and house were....

[DarkYoung]

Book of Wisdom - The Apocrypha
(The Wisdom of Solomon)


Wis 1:1. Love righteousness, ye that be judges of the earth: Think of the Lord with a good (heart,) and in simplicity of heart find him.

Wis 1:4. For into a malicous soul wisdom shall not enter; nor dwell in the body that is subject to sin.

Wis 1:13. For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

Wis 2:7. Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:

Wis 2:23. For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.

Wis 2:24. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

Wis 7:19. The circuits of the years, and the positions of the stars:

Wis 8:19. For i was a witty child, and had a good spirit.

Wis 8:20. Yea rather, being good, i came into a body undefiled.

[gunjack]

yea can we stop with the biblical shit please

[The_Laughing_Man]

it's called dubstep isn't it?

dubstep reached it`s peak already.
It doesn`t have the energy to be any bigger.
I don`t think it contains any advanced techniques either.
The general level of production quality is quite high for a music that has so much fire in it`s belly, but I would hardly say the techniques are any more advanced than what is happening in any genre.
It`s just another sub genre of music.
I like it a lot, but it`s not some amazing new undiscovered jewel.

[stjohn]

even with all the advanced production techniques?

[gunjack]

dubstep reached it`s peak already.
It doesn`t have the energy to be any bigger.
I don`t think it contains any advanced techniques either.
The general level of production quality is quite high for a music that has so much fire in it`s belly, but I would hardly say the techniques are any more advanced than what is happening in any genre.
It`s just another sub genre of music.
I like it a lot, but it`s not some amazing new undiscovered jewel.


"dubstep", "brummy" techno etc has all lead us to the same fuking place.... MONGREL MUSIC. HYBRID MUSIC. music that doesn't depend on one subgenre or another... i had somebody call my new tunes "industrial break step" the other day and i had to tell him "for fuk's sake man,
can't we let go of these playground, pigeon-holing antics?" seriously i got to the DUBSTEP FORUMS and it is like blackout but blue instead of orange and the word "dubstep" replacing the word "techno".

it's quite absurd when you think about it..... saying "dubstep" is not a "musical movement" like "techno" etc is like saying French is not a language like English is a language.... just stupid, seperatist ideas that hold us all back. nobody is saying we should merge with psycho trance and donk etc but yea i think the social structure upon which we base the foundation for modern ideas has shown us, time and again that we as humans function better when we take a bit from here and a bit from there "cutting and pasting" the beneficial and avant gard bits from each "movement" in order to communicate more effectively...

[Numeric]

dubstep was ace back in the early naughties, before anyone had even coined the phrase

guys like zed bias, oris j and others, even miss dynamite had an ill diss track out back then which was heavy

long before any bored techno producers jumped on the band wagon :;

[gunjack]

dubstep reached it`s peak already.
It doesn`t have the energy to be any bigger.
I don`t think it contains any advanced techniques either.

sorry mate "dubstep" is still new to non-UK ears.... the energy to become bigger is now on a global scale, the uk may be saturated but spain, japan, brasil etc are just getting started and when all is said and done london is not the center of the world...."dubstep" is UK bass music that uses lot's of LFOs and low frequency manipulation to get it's point accross.... i would say that is a bit more advanced, production wise than the average "dark/hard techno" let's-trade-audio-loops-and-make-something-that-could-be-mistaken-for-a-90s-downwards-release mentality....... the idea is not to say "oh wow dubstep is the way forward" or "dubstep is an undiscovered gem" but to say ok, something has been happening musically called "dubstep", what can i learn from this "trend", what are the things that stay with me long after "dubstep" is gone? i mean i personally consider my newer works and that of bracket (RIP) and NOIZ etc to be TECHNO, but if the "dubstep" crowd "gets it" better.... there must be something behind that....


i remember when techno was a bunch of free thinkers trying to RACE forward to the next mind blowing, script flip of a tune, now it is like a bunch of retro cunts ignoring every new musical tendency and trying like hell to stay right where they are, on planet boring in the repitition galaxy just beyond the bury-your-head-in-the-sand-nebula haha


fuk techno. fuk dubstep. instead of following these "movements" we should be LEADING MOVEMENTS OF OUR OWN, not by inventing new genre names but by IGNORING THEM and experimenting as we always have, but without the fear of being labeled as one thing or another. let the distros, record stores and journalists worry about what is "techno" and what is "dubstep", that is their job!


let's get back to making music that is INTERESTING to the ears instead of atlking the music to death....

[gunjack]

dubstep was ace back in the early naughties, before anyone had even coined the phrase

guys like zed bias, oris j and others, even miss dynamite had an ill diss track out back then which was heavy

long before any bored techno producers jumped on the band wagon :;

i gotta say lot's of "dusbtep" for me is fuking boring too..... i like PINCH for example but i can't stand QUAWALLI or whatever that tune is called..... the idea is not that "bored techno producers" like myself have "jumped on t he bandwagon" because that implies, at least in my case that i just grabbed up some typical bass drop sounds and went to town.... this is simply not so..... what happened in my case is that the "off beat" and "dark techno" people DEMANDED i keep making (even though it bores the pants off me), was so similar to the "dubstep" that was reaching other audiences, that not selling my music to those people as well just seemed STUPID to say the least. now i have more than doubled my fan base in 1 year and am able to experiment A LOT more with drums and low frequencies. i still allign myself with techno folks like STORMFIELD and SCORN but i no longer have to be afraid of being called a "surgeon clone" or a "shcranz" producer by ignorants... because i am making music that could be called "techno" could be called "dubstep" could be called "industrial breakstep" etc etc etc etc


on the other side of the coin "funky" is just like deep house but with off beat "dubstep" style garage drums, 2562 and martyn, two of the biggest names in "dubstep" are making what i would call retro detroit techno and the dubstep kids are eating it up!!! so are we saying that these guys "jumped on the techno bandwagon"? i would say that folks are finally waking up and realizing that dub, techno, garage, breakbeat etc etc etc is all basically the same thing and a good tune is a good tune so WHY WASTE TIME DEBATING ON WHICH GENRE CAME FIRST OR WILL LAST LONGER???? music is entertainment and art all at the same time, so have fun and blow minds!!!! that is all that really matters....

[Numeric]

i gotta say lot's of "dusbtep" for me is fuking boring too..... i like PINCH for example but i can't stand QUAWALLI or whatever that tune is called..... the idea is not that "bored techno producers" like myself have "jumped on t he bandwagon" because that implies, at least in my case that i just grabbed up some typical bass drop sounds and went to town.... this is simply not so..... what happened in my case is that the "off beat" and "dark techno" people DEMANDED i keep making (even though it bores the pants off me), was so similar to the "dubstep" that was reaching other audiences, that not selling my music to those people as well just seemed STUPID to say the least. now i have more than doubled my fan base in 1 year and am able to experiment A LOT more with drums and low frequencies. i still allign myself with techno folks like STORMFIELD and SCORN but i no longer have to be afraid of being called a "surgeon clone" or a "shcranz" producer by ignorants... because i am making music that could be called "techno" could be called "dubstep" could be called "industrial breakstep" etc etc etc etc


on the other side of the coin "funky" is just like deep house but with off beat "dubstep" style garage drums, 2562 and martyn, two of the biggest names in "dubstep" are making what i would call retro detroit techno and the dubstep kids are eating it up!!! so are we saying that these guys "jumped on the techno bandwagon"? i would say that folks are finally waking up and realizing that dub, techno, garage, breakbeat etc etc etc is all basically the same thing and a good tune is a good tune so WHY WASTE TIME DEBATING ON WHICH GENRE CAME FIRST OR WILL LAST LONGER???? music is entertainment and art all at the same time, so have fun and blow minds!!!! that is all that really matters....

you don't have to explain yourself to me man, i was just joking :)

personally i'm not a massive fan of dubstep, but i can still appreciate it, whether it be dark or the more dance floor orientated stuff, a good tune is a good tune, as you say

[gunjack]

**** "sheepstep" as mick says, got to do your thing and ignore the B.S.

[The Overfiend]

And I think you miss the entire point of this thread by focusing on what the DJ`s are earning.


I think you missed my point.
We can say it's not the artist it's the agent.
The agent's JOB is to make sure the artist and himself are paid.
Agent's are good because of shady promoters.
How many people on this very forum have travelled to some country they've never been to.
Or driven yay far from their houses to not be paid at the end of the night?
If we want to sit there and discuss making things better then maybe the title of the thread should be something along those lines.

I personally think everyone should do them, and try to reach the level of success of the people they criticize.
Strive to be better.
Strive to achieve.
Strive to add to the culture of techno by presenting your aural take on it.
Instead of trying so ****ing hard to hate on anyone else's accolades or merits'
If dj xyz makes 10g's on a booking you know what good for him, he's got an agent that's on their hustle! At the end of the day we all got to work and make money and feed our kids and keep our lifestyles up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQRbDSwZIME

"wtf he got 6 tv's for in there? it aint even 6 mutha****as in there."
dont ****in worry bout it raggedy bitch u need to figure out how to get that duck tape off yo tail lite and yo got damn business, its 2007 bitch"

[BloodStar]

Or driven yay far from their houses to not be paid at the end of the night?
If we want to sit there and discuss making things better then maybe the title of the thread should be something along those lines.
Here where I live, we call it deposit. Can we pay it if artist/agent does require it? Yes, we can.
Is usually agent asking for deposit? Not all the time.

As you said, agent is here for controlling the things to be safe for artists, no matter money or security wise, how come they are not asking for the deposit regularly, let say 50%???

Sry mate, but you are absolutly missing the point of this debate.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I think you missed my point.
We can say it's not the artist it's the agent.
The agent's JOB is to make sure the artist and himself are paid.
Agent's are good because of shady promoters.
How many people on this very forum have travelled to some country they've never been to.
Or driven yay far from their houses to not be paid at the end of the night?
If we want to sit there and discuss making things better then maybe the title of the thread should be something along those lines.


Agents won`t protect you from this, people with agents still don`t get paid.

What will protect you from this is investigation and a bit of Savvy.

Again you miss the point entirely by labeling any discussion, discourse or debate as "Hate".

Nobody is being hated here, it`s just straight talking.
You say techno is like a family?

Well, the one thing you can rely on with famly above all else, above friends, is honesty.
You may be king of the world but your mum can still cut you down to the ground and bring you down to earth with the truth, rather than telling you how great you are all the time.

As adults we should be able to cope with criticism and fair debate, and yes disagreement, in a civilised and adult way.
Anyone who can`t take it or cries and stamps their feet needs to go back to school.

There`s nothing wrong with big ups as well, but when you bleet like a sheep about how great everyone is all the time, it just becomes meaningless noise.
It`s all about contrasts, light means nothing without darkness.

Credit where credit is due, and criticism also.

[gunjack]

There`s nothing wrong with big ups as well, but when you bleet like a sheep about how great everyone is all the time, it just becomes meaningless noise.
It`s all about contrasts, light means nothing without darkness.




this

[The Overfiend]

Agents won`t protect you from this, people with agents still don`t get paid.

What will protect you from this is investigation and a bit of Savvy.

Again you miss the point entirely by labeling any discussion, discourse or debate as "Hate".

Nobody is being hated here, it`s just straight talking.
You say techno is like a family?

Well, the one thing you can rely on with famly above all else, above friends, is honesty.
You may be king of the world but your mum can still cut you down to the ground and bring you down to earth with the truth, rather than telling you how great you are all the time.

As adults we should be able to cope with criticism and fair debate, and yes disagreement, in a civilised and adult way.
Anyone who can`t take it or cries and stamps their feet needs to go back to school.

There`s nothing wrong with big ups as well, but when you bleet like a sheep about how great everyone is all the time, it just becomes meaningless noise.
It`s all about contrasts, light means nothing without darkness.

Credit where credit is due, and criticism also.

No one is biggin' up anyone Steve, all you are doing is taking my feedback and manipulating it into a character assasination. You started a thread criticising the "big name" prices. Now all of the sudden it's become the usual let's save techno thread with you on the horse screaming death to all who oppose. I will not let you discredit my stance with blatant insults trying to discredit what I am saying by telling me "I don't understand the point of the thread."

I don't big up anything unless it is impressive to me, I also don't worry about anyone else's finances unless it's f*ckin with my own.

Credit Crunch Vs Arrogance of Big Names
(Why don't you stay on topic then)

[SlavikSvensk]

"dubstep", "brummy" techno etc has all lead us to the same fuking place.... MONGREL MUSIC. HYBRID MUSIC. music that doesn't depend on one subgenre or another... i had somebody call my new tunes "industrial break step" the other day and i had to tell him "for fuk's sake man,
can't we let go of these playground, pigeon-holing antics?" seriously i got to the DUBSTEP FORUMS and it is like blackout but blue instead of orange and the word "dubstep" replacing the word "techno".

it's quite absurd when you think about it..... saying "dubstep" is not a "musical movement" like "techno" etc is like saying French is not a language like English is a language.... just stupid, seperatist ideas that hold us all back. nobody is saying we should merge with psycho trance and donk etc but yea i think the social structure upon which we base the foundation for modern ideas has shown us, time and again that we as humans function better when we take a bit from here and a bit from there "cutting and pasting" the beneficial and avant gard bits from each "movement" in order to communicate more effectively...

i totally agree with you on the backwardness of over-categorization. but pretty sure steve does as well.

think the post you are quoting of his is saying that people who look at dubstep as a sort of revolution or sonic salvation are a bit misguided.

[The_Laughing_Man]

No one is biggin' up anyone Steve, all you are doing is taking my feedback and manipulating it into a character assasination. You started a thread criticising the "big name" prices. Now all of the sudden it's become the usual let's save techno thread with you on the horse screaming death to all who oppose. I will not let you discredit my stance with blatant insults trying to discredit what I am saying by telling me "I don't understand the point of the thread."

I don't big up anything unless it is impressive to me, I also don't worry about anyone else's finances unless it's f*ckin with my own.

Credit Crunch Vs Arrogance of Big Names
(Why don't you stay on topic then)

Screw staying on topic, rules are there to be broken and conversations evolve, standpoints even change, as you are allowed to change your mind.

There`s no character assassination here, this isn`t about you.
It`s the colloquiel "you" I am using when I say things such as "There`s nothing wrong with big ups as well, but when you bleet like a sheep about how great everyone is all the time, it just becomes meaningless noise.
It`s all about contrasts, light means nothing without darkness"

You take offence much too quickly.

If you read my first post, it`s quite generic and not really attacking anyone in specific, nor does it point the finger at ALL big names.

Again you miss the point, as this isn`t so much worrying about the wages of the DJ`s, it`s more related to the promoters perspective.
Nor is this about saving techno, it is merely a discussion looking for solutions.
Rather than one word answers.

Looking at the big picture, and everyone involved (taking the soundsystems for example, I know a few sound hire firms going out of business, and also having to drop their fees, do the real hard sweaty work, and possibkly get less money when DJ Diva doesn`t pull in enough of a crowd but demands full fee, for example)

The point I am really trying to make is that the scene is more than the DJ`s.
Especially now, and Diva like behaviour is ugly.

I do worry about some peoples finances. Friends in the biz who have worked really really ****ing hard and are struggling. Not just DJ`s, the other people that also make things happen.
I worry about my friends and I try to help them.
A more considered approach from everyone will allow everyone to be fairly treated and still feed the kids/rent/pets/coke habit etc

Communication is everything, agree or disagree it doesn`t really matter, wrangling, praising, biting etc as long as it is handled with an adult brain and if possible, without ego, then there is no problem.

[The_Laughing_Man]

i totally agree with you on the backwardness of over-categorization. but pretty sure steve does as well.

think the post you are quoting of his is saying that people who look at dubstep as a sort of revolution or sonic salvation are a bit misguided.

Yeah I hate categories, but infortunately the general public is used to being spoon-fed and needs things placed neatly in boxes.

IF I had my way things would go back to the early 90`s rave ethic, in club terms, and the music wouldn`t be the same genre all night.
A mix of dance music from DJ to DJ is great, as long as the music is good.
Hell, even playing lots of different sub genres as a DJ, in one set, how novel, rather than playing a bunch of similar sounding stuff of the same bpms all together.

[davethedrummer]

anyone fancy a pint?

[DarkYoung]

anyone fancy a pint?


did you call my pint a puff?

[The_Laughing_Man]

anyone fancy a pint?

What about some shots?

[Darkmode]

I think you missed my point.
We can say it's not the artist it's the agent.
The agent's JOB is to make sure the artist and himself are paid.
Agent's are good because of shady promoters.
How many people on this very forum have travelled to some country they've never been to.
Or driven yay far from their houses to not be paid at the end of the night?
If we want to sit there and discuss making things better then maybe the title of the thread should be something along those lines.

I personally think everyone should do them, and try to reach the level of success of the people they criticize.
Strive to be better.
Strive to achieve.
Strive to add to the culture of techno by presenting your aural take on it.
Instead of trying so ****ing hard to hate on anyone else's accolades or merits'
If dj xyz makes 10g's on a booking you know what good for him, he's got an agent that's on their hustle! At the end of the day we all got to work and make money and feed our kids and keep our lifestyles up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQRbDSwZIME

"wtf he got 6 tv's for in there? it aint even 6 mutha****as in there."
dont ****in worry bout it raggedy bitch u need to figure out how to get that duck tape off yo tail lite and yo got damn business, its 2007 bitch"

I agree my friend it's pointless bitching & moaning about it as jelously gets people no where

it's good to see you have a postive frame of mind on the subject ;-)

[Igneous]

Looking at the big picture, and everyone involved (taking the soundsystems for example, I know a few sound hire firms going out of business, and also having to drop their fees, do the real hard sweaty work, and possibkly get less money when DJ Diva doesn`t pull in enough of a crowd but demands full fee, for example)

The point I am really trying to make is that the scene is more than the DJ`s.
Especially now, and Diva like behaviour is ugly.

I do worry about some peoples finances. Friends in the biz who have worked really really ****ing hard and are struggling. Not just DJ`s, the other people that also make things happen.
I worry about my friends and I try to help them.
A more considered approach from everyone will allow everyone to be fairly treated and still feed the kids/rent/pets/coke habit etc

Communication is everything, agree or disagree it doesn`t really matter, wrangling, praising, biting etc as long as it is handled with an adult brain and if possible, without ego, then there is no problem.

I hear what your saying to an extent. DJs are treated like pop stars these days. Techno isn't as bad as a lot of genres, but its worse than it used to be cause DJs rely on the money to pay morgauges etc, even underground scenes have had to become commercialised. Product of sucess.

Trouble is, when you look at life in general, with the old credit crunch & greedy banks, etc, nothing is fair on people who work really hard. Seems even techno is capitalist, lol. The dance music industy isn't very regulated so there isn't any guarenties of being paid. You could try & introduce a minimum & maximum wage based on skill for DJs but it would probley stiffle creativity & the DJs would be able to play the system one way or the other. So back to square 1.

I Quite like going to the odd free party now & again, where everything is put together without much money & it doesn't matter what DJs are playing for a change of vibe.

For the record, I think new nights shouldn't bother with big names. Just book locals & up & comings. The nights that last will have push these names forward to be big names. If that happens enough 'The scene' should continue on as normal.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I agree, I think new nights should keep it small and build up a fan base from the ground, rather than trying to "buy in" a fan base.
It`s not easy though.

It does seem to be happening though as a lot of smaller more underground nights seem to have sprung up around europe.

[curly]

I know I'm going back a few years now, but when I promoted in Southend names never made a difference to our attendance, but we were on a tight budget, the only clubs that would let us put on techno, or any dance music for that matter had a max capacity of 150-180 so there never was the money to pay big names,

We started small and very quickly build a very loyal fan base, we had some wicked party's, made some very good mates ones that i still see today. Is that not all part of the techno fun.

[The Overfiend]

Funny how people react to their demigods as opposed to their peers.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I know I'm going back a few years now, but when I promoted in Southend names never made a difference to our attendance, but we were on a tight budget, the only clubs that would let us put on techno, or any dance music for that matter had a max capacity of 150-180 so there never was the money to pay big names,

We started small and very quickly build a very loyal fan base, we had some wicked party's, made some very good mates ones that i still see today. Is that not all part of the techno fun.

Southend is a strange place to put on techno though mate.
I have no idea how you coped.
Flying the flag in that town was commendable, it has always been sharon and tracey land innit?
Could you imagine getting in jeff mills or someone for southend
The general opinion would be "who`s that cunt?"

[judas_beast]

anyone fancy a pint?

stella please.

[The_Laughing_Man]

stella please.

Wifebeater?
You sick man
Might as well urinate into your own mouth

[judas_beast]

Might as well urinate into your own mouth

I've tried Steve, but it's bloody difficult*

Do you have MSN, I wondered if you could give me some advice on updating a VERY old track I made, only have the mix down WAV, and want to bring some elements out?




*
i have found it you do a head stand, you can just about hit the ultimate mouth/piss combo

[The_Laughing_Man]

dirty blue records AT hotmail . com

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i thought i would give my take on this, cause i have sometimes been accused of having a high fee even since back in the day when i used to charge 50 quid for a set in huddersfield ;)

it's not arrogance. it's all to do with the way you're perceived. i think at first it's a real struggle to make any cash out of djing. tbh you don't care cause that's not the motivation AT ALL. but what you tend to find is once you've been in this game a while, and you get a bit of recognition, the 'order' of the dj's on the flyers tends to be the higher paid ones at the top and the lower paid ones at the bottom. there's simply no getting away from it. it's shit. it really is. but it's the way it is.

and i think agents and dj's catch onto this and set their prices according to where they percieve themselves to be in the general status quo. the promoters see it also as a benchmark to how 'big' the name is too. the more you pay for someone, the more you need the guy to be at the top of your flyer in big lights saying 'i'm a big dj please suck my cock harder than the other guy'. there's no malice in it. it's just what you have to do and it's a circle we CANNOT escape from (unless of course you're a free party promoter, in which case cocks are defo not suked hahaha).

take my perspective for example. it has taken alot of years (15/20!!) for chrissi to get my fee to where it is to a point where, sure a few promoters fall off their chairs, but the majority only fall off slightly but then gain composure and eventually we get the booking sorted. why?

there is the age old thing of NEGOTIATION you know. alot of dj's and agent set the benchmark fee a a 'this is what i think i'm worth' but are totally willing to negotiate for the underground clubs and the ppl that can't genuinely afford it. i think that's a huge problem with promoters who are just into this for the love of music - they don't realise the business side to it. if you're a promoter - NEGOTIATE!!!! dave clarke charges 5 grand for a set if you enquire but you can bet your bottom dollar that he doesnt get that for that small club in bristol that only holds 700 ppl. most dj's and agent WILL negotiate if you set your case out clearly, come across as professional and passionate, TRUST me. especially if the artist is a music person and not part of a hard house consortium where they dont give a shit. i will say no more. hahaha

so in conclusion, you can't really blame the dj's. you can't blame the promoters. it's just the way things are. and no matter how much we wish it wasn't, performance is a business IF you want to make a living out of it. if you DONT want to make a living out of and you have massive talent, i salute you massively, but i can assure you that once you get that first 50 quid in your pocket from a booking that enables you buy more music, better studio equipment a more confortable surrounding to make your music, then you're more than likely going to be in the trap of wondering how you're gonna get another 50 quid. sad but TRUE.

the real test though is can you achieve this without being greedy? join the hip hop scene and i think you might have a few problems. but the techno scene is gnerally music based. people in this scene give and take. and if they dont - move on and book someone else.

Just my 2 cents guys.

[DannyBlack]

i'll give you 50 quid to play at GRENADE mark. :lol:

[djfilthmonger]

i'll give you 50 quid to play at GRENADE mark. :lol:

that would class actually. Hey Mark ever play in Ireland?

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i've just come back from ireland. well, northern ireland actually. dublin i played once or twice over the years i think. either that or was it limerick?? god knows my memory is shit. i do remember one place they called it 'stab city' cause of a knife problem at the time and strangely enough i also remember getting a bottle thrown at me mid-mix. nice club that one hahahahahaha

[stjohn]

limerick lols

[Rog]

kind of the beat i guess, but i have never understood how so many 'dj's could get paid for playing other artists work? i do accept now, as opposed to the mid/late 90's way more 'dj's now produce music.

if i were running a night, i'd only look at P.A.'s or Ableton Sets - or the know 'dj's whom have built what they have to date.

high fee's will not get paid, clubs/promoters and alike will cancel nights - i would imagine that smaller venues (at reasonable prices) with artists whom produce will and want to expose the sound (so prob not 100% full time musicians) can take advantage?!

Those who survive by techno and alike.. must, like the rest of us in these times way up every option and be prepared to give, as well as take.

[clubsynthetic]

i thought i would give my take on this, cause i have sometimes been accused of having a high fee even since back in the day when i used to charge 50 quid for a set in huddersfield ;)

it's not arrogance. it's all to do with the way you're perceived. i think at first it's a real struggle to make any cash out of djing. tbh you don't care cause that's not the motivation AT ALL. but what you tend to find is once you've been in this game a while, and you get a bit of recognition, the 'order' of the dj's on the flyers tends to be the higher paid ones at the top and the lower paid ones at the bottom. there's simply no getting away from it. it's shit. it really is. but it's the way it is.

and i think agents and dj's catch onto this and set their prices according to where they percieve themselves to be in the general status quo. the promoters see it also as a benchmark to how 'big' the name is too. the more you pay for someone, the more you need the guy to be at the top of your flyer in big lights saying 'i'm a big dj please suck my cock harder than the other guy'. there's no malice in it. it's just what you have to do and it's a circle we CANNOT escape from (unless of course you're a free party promoter, in which case cocks are defo not suked hahaha).

take my perspective for example. it has taken alot of years (15/20!!) for chrissi to get my fee to where it is to a point where, sure a few promoters fall off their chairs, but the majority only fall off slightly but then gain composure and eventually we get the booking sorted. why?

there is the age old thing of NEGOTIATION you know. alot of dj's and agent set the benchmark fee a a 'this is what i think i'm worth' but are totally willing to negotiate for the underground clubs and the ppl that can't genuinely afford it. i think that's a huge problem with promoters who are just into this for the love of music - they don't realise the business side to it. if you're a promoter - NEGOTIATE!!!! dave clarke charges 5 grand for a set if you enquire but you can bet your bottom dollar that he doesnt get that for that small club in bristol that only holds 700 ppl. most dj's and agent WILL negotiate if you set your case out clearly, come across as professional and passionate, TRUST me. especially if the artist is a music person and not part of a hard house consortium where they dont give a shit. i will say no more. hahaha

so in conclusion, you can't really blame the dj's. you can't blame the promoters. it's just the way things are. and no matter how much we wish it wasn't, performance is a business IF you want to make a living out of it. if you DONT want to make a living out of and you have massive talent, i salute you massively, but i can assure you that once you get that first 50 quid in your pocket from a booking that enables you buy more music, better studio equipment a more confortable surrounding to make your music, then you're more than likely going to be in the trap of wondering how you're gonna get another 50 quid. sad but TRUE.

the real test though is can you achieve this without being greedy? join the hip hop scene and i think you might have a few problems. but the techno scene is gnerally music based. people in this scene give and take. and if they dont - move on and book someone else.

Just my 2 cents guys.

I see some points there.

I've offered fair deals and tried to compromise, but some dj have turned the club down point blank. which i find annoying...

but in hindsight all i think is that dispite dubstep bla bla bla bla bla all genres progress, so folk need to be local heros again and make high end djs work for thier supper. If you can't afford a DJ then look to other solutions as a promoter for high quality techno shizniz.

I'm not saying don't book a big DJ or anything,, just both promoters and djs need to comprise more for each other in general or they both gonna be ****ed sonner or later eh.

As long as you can spot cheap good talent yer rollin, like keeping a cycle going, keeping trends weaving and not stagnating into one corner of the genre market.

I had some of the best nigts when i went to a techno club and didn't know who was playing (or for that matter - what was happening :D ) and it didn't matter about a name or whether they were expensive or if they were black or white or yellow as long as they pumped they **** out of the club i was a happy chappy.

[nekro]

when i've booked djs in the past i've pretty much bi-passed any booking agents, if the dj expresses an interest in what i'm doing at my event then i'll pursue them - if not and they just say speak to my agent then i'm no longer interested in them.

i've always held events because of the passion i have for the music, because i've been a fan for so long i've managed to meet a lot of artists along the way and thus call in some favours.

[djfilthmonger]

i've just come back from ireland. well, northern ireland actually. dublin i played once or twice over the years i think. either that or was it limerick?? god knows my memory is shit. i do remember one place they called it 'stab city' cause of a knife problem at the time and strangely enough i also remember getting a bottle thrown at me mid-mix. nice club that one hahahahahaha

yeah stab city is limerick. it all about the guns these days.

[The Overfiend]

my kind of place