Familiarity Breeds Contempt ? Is Techno Losing Its Edge ?

[System 47]

Originally Posted by System 47
Same reason people chat about the weather in the UK, to make conversation.

^^^ is that why we live in such a banal society ? ppl constantly stating the obvious as opposed to saying something worthwhile.. but then, i guess ppl would have to THINK for THEMSELVES in that case.. and where would be then eh ;)

It'd definitely be more interesting mate. Maybe you can start a more intelligent/worthwhile Techno thread on BOA and get the ball rolling?


^^^ in response to this request ^^^





is it, as many ppl believe, jus 'not as good' or is it because ppl become more demanding as they become more familiar ?

personally, i dont think the music has moved backwards or stalled. there are still good artists, labels, clubs & outfits making things happen. the mechanism is changing with digital tools & distribution. its easier to access the kit to make music than ever before & a few clicks sends your track off around the world..

so where do YOU stand ? was it really 'better back in 97' or is it that the same tired cry of ppl who jus moved on min their musical tastes ?



D I S C U S S

[DannyBlack]

Techno to me has lost it's shine, it's balls and overall, it's appeal. Well for me that is.

It just doesn't excite me as much as it used to. Can I blame that on the extreme amount of mass-produced Ueberschall pack-esque tracks? Yes, somewhat.

Also I put it down to my taste evolving past that. I recently gave up making Techno. I had a whole load of tracks either finished or nearly, but what the ****- where's it going to get me? Nowhere.

I still love Techno (pre-2007) and will continue to buy it and play it but as it goes- it's time to part ways.

[Mattias_Fridell]

There is some nice stuff around now for sure but I'd say lots of Techno lost its edge. Though I know that really soon some more heavy stuff with classic feel is coming, and even some old classics will return. I hope it might change the environment a bit more over time-

[System 47]

danny, theres a great way out of that 'what do i do with all these things i aint finished' hole.. turn them into basic tools or loops & put them on Soundcloud for nowt.. free d'loads. i done this & have recieved label ineterest. the great thing is, the ppl who approached me know nothing about me. they are interested in the music & thats it. i took the idea of complete trax & junked it after doing the loop thing in ableton & my output has jus rocketed. if i do a 'track' i feel i should make it have a start, middle & end. it should progress musically & so on & blah blah.. but when i do a 'tool' all i need is a groove & a few drops of the kick.. its psychological, but it has freed me in production.

punt it out there man & you never know who's flickin thru the web lookin for free stuff or someone new.

or give them to ppl to remix.. ive done that & had some crackin stuff back. real unexpected takes on what i originally put down. and that is such an inspiring thing.. when ppl do new things with your stuff you hadnt even considered, it makes the brain jus get on the good foot.

run it up the flag pole man.. see who salutes it :)

jus dont bin it. i'll take it all of your hands lol

[teknorich]

Techno is definitely more accessible than ever before, with tools for music production / digital mixing software available to everyone now, and with every mp3 store from itunes to Tesco selling Techno tracks, but yeah, somehow it can sometimes seem less exciting, less interesting nowadays...

Maybe you are right; that familiarity breeds contempt, and because it is so easy now, a lot of people who in the past would only have made up the audience of the club are now trying to be producers and DJs. We are now able to be much more part of the scene, not just the audience, so maybe we demand more, or refuse to settle for less like we might have in the past? Also, like anything, when it is fresh and new, it is much more exciting. How do you keep it so exciting 10, even 20 years later? Have we got a bit too "used " to it now?

The sound of "Techno" has changed a lot in recent years though, and tbh I'd find it hard to find a Techno night to go to in my home city (what I think of as Techno anyways; late 90's early 00's more pounding style). There is a plethora of new Techno nights, but they are based around the new Techno scene - the slower, more minimal sounding techno. I don't know of any clubs playing harder Techno, except for the occasional one-off night. Perhaps that is why some people feel jaded with the Techno scene; they fell in love with the older Techno sound (faster, harder etc) and just can't feel the same rush from this newer, slower Techno?

That begs the question though, are such people just old moaners; stuck in the past and going on about the "good old days", or has Techno changed too much now from it's original, more underground roots? When Ibiza clubs are packed with thousands of kids wearing neon t-shirts and shades indoors dancing to "Techno" can it really be considered as underground as it was? Techno as a genre is more popular now than it has been for years, but is that still Techno, or has it sold out, and changed too much from the feeling, vibe and attitude of Techno in the past?

But what caused Techno to have to change anyway? Was it the fact that for years producers just knocked out the same tired old loops and tribal drums, to the point that people got bored of it? I know I got a bit sick of hearing the same old stuff, and drifted away a bit a few years ago (ironic that I now yearn for the good old Techno of days gone by, huh?). I did get quite into Minimal at one point and maybe that was in itself a reaction to lazy Techno producers just churning out the same old sounds we'd heard a million times before. I dunno...

[DannyBlack]

danny, theres a great way out of that 'what do i do with all these things i aint finished' hole.. turn them into basic tools or loops & put them on Soundcloud for nowt.. free d'loads. i done this & have recieved label ineterest. the great thing is, the ppl who approached me know nothing about me. they are interested in the music & thats it. i took the idea of complete trax & junked it after doing the loop thing in ableton & my output has jus rocketed. if i do a 'track' i feel i should make it have a start, middle & end. it should progress musically & so on & blah blah.. but when i do a 'tool' all i need is a groove & a few drops of the kick.. its psychological, but it has freed me in production.

punt it out there man & you never know who's flickin thru the web lookin for free stuff or someone new.

or give them to ppl to remix.. ive done that & had some crackin stuff back. real unexpected takes on what i originally put down. and that is such an inspiring thing.. when ppl do new things with your stuff you hadnt even considered, it makes the brain jus get on the good foot.

run it up the flag pole man.. see who salutes it :)

jus dont bin it. i'll take it all of your hands lol


That's a belting idea. Good thinking... I will pack it all up this weekend then if I get time. I think I might create a new soundcloud page for it. I'll send some things your way too mate. Nice one.

[SlavikSvensk]

it was more exciting in the 1990s, because it was newer, mor revolutionary and had fewer conventions. but there was also plenty of crap back then, and loads of good stuff being made now. it's just much more niche than it was.

electronic music, generally speaking, is much more institutionalized now. like most music scenes posing as social revolutions, it just ended up being a scene.

[basslinejunkie]

techno has moved on,even forward you could say. just because also of techno now has slowed in tempo, i would hardly say ' it has lost its balls ' personally i think the slower something is the darker it becomes.

this place needs to move on from hard techno and realise there is a whole host of music and artists out there that are still making amazing music.

[DannyBlack]

I'm not talking about slower mate. My production decreased in tempo too and to me was the hardest stuff i was making. at 126bpm, it sounded hard.

anyway- im not even on about hard techno either. techno in general, DID lose it's balls.

[teknorich]

Basslinejunkie, do you still go clubbing any more mate? Do you find the new, slower Techno as exciting on the dancefloor? I'm not criticising, but from conversations with other Techno heads here in Liverpool over the last couple of years, people just don't feel the "Nu Skool Techno" in the way they did the older stuff. It is great for home listening, even for house parties, and the production values are WAY higher than they were in the past, but at the same time it just feels less exciting and gives less of an adrenalin rush than it did when it was 10-15BPM faster. When you are on the dancefloor, you want to get lost in the adrenalin and the excitement of the music, not stand there and admire the high production quality, stroking your chin...

I think maybe we did this to the scene ourselves, with too many drugs, music going too fast and too low quality, just mindless pounders for the pill heads, but what we have nowadays feels like a shadow of Techno's former spirit and vibe on the dancefloor.


Mattias said: "Though I know that really soon some more heavy stuff with classic feel is coming, and even some old classics will return. I hope it might change the environment a bit more over time " which I totally agree with. I think the success of Minimal and the newer Techno sound was in part a result of failings in the old Techno scene, but I am hopeful for a resurgence to some extent of the old, more underground, harder Techno vibe. I don't want 150BPM mindless distorted rubbish for kids on drugs, but I also don't want 125BPM trendy techno for ibiza posers. There's a happy medium somewhere between, and I think that Techno will find it's place in there and grow again.

[teknorich]

And before anyone says it, it is not just an issue of speed! It's far too easy when people criticise modern Techno to just say that they want nothing but hard-assed pounders and they are speed freaks (repeat ad nauseum) but that is missing the point.

Yes, Techno nowadays is slower, but it is also not as hard a sound, not as agressive or pumping, and it doesn't excite a dancefloor the way it used to. You compare Beyer's output now to his older releases, and they just don't have anywhere near the same energy or vibe to them. Techno felt so much more intense in the past than it does now, and that is not just cos it was faster. The drums were bigger, fatter, harder, louder, the tracks were more attacking, and you didn't get compressed bongos and white noise hisses on every damn tune!

I've never had so much high quality home listening Techno in my life, and I am genuinely pleased with that, but I have also never found the Techno dancefloors so lacklustre and uninteresting, and that I am not at all happy about. There's a happy medium to be reached, and the sooner the better in my opinion.

[Mattias_Fridell]

Teknorich is spot on here. Also too many Techno DJs / Producers forgot where they came from and suddenly turned pop stars (Beyer / Baily etc). I mean, hell, too many of those pop stars guys uses ghost producers thats ****ed up.

When i got the latest Drumcode promo I really felt soon that we will see "Radio Mixes on Drumcode releases...

[Numeric]

techno has moved on,even forward you could say. just because also of techno now has slowed in tempo, i would hardly say ' it has lost its balls ' personally i think the slower something is the darker it becomes.

this place needs to move on from hard techno and realise there is a whole host of music and artists out there that are still making amazing music.

totally agree, there's so much quality techno around at the moment

these moaning threads really make me laugh

[DannyBlack]

This one aint intended for a moan though really mate. If you got links to what Im missing please post em- you'd literally make my day if you find me something that will get my heart pounding like it used to! :-)

[Numeric]

This one aint intended for a moan though really mate. If you got links to what Im missing please post em- you'd literally make my day if you find me something that will get my heart pounding like it used to! :-)

i know that you like your hard techno and in terms of the hard stuff, you guys are probably right, there isn't a lot of real quality around at the moment

techno wise though there's been lots of quality new releases, i'm at work so can't really provide links but i've been buying material from the likes of ruskin, peter van hoesen, dvs1, rob hood, dettmann, regis, function, ben klock, fsg, mike dehnert, marcel fengler and loads of others

[DannyBlack]

Not at all mate- I actually got bored of Hard Techno. All sounds the same to me these days. At the moment I'm buying old vinyl from around 96 to 2006.

I love Techno. There's no denying it- my point is, what Im hearing these days seems to pale in comparison to the older stuff. However, I am open to be being 'shut up' :laugh2:

[basslinejunkie]

Basslinejunkie, do you still go clubbing any more mate? Do you find the new, slower Techno as exciting on the dancefloor? I'm not criticising, but from conversations with other Techno heads here in Liverpool over the last couple of years, people just don't feel the "Nu Skool Techno" in the way they did the older stuff. It is great for home listening, even for house parties, and the production values are WAY higher than they were in the past, but at the same time it just feels less exciting and gives less of an adrenalin rush than it did when it was 10-15BPM faster. When you are on the dancefloor, you want to get lost in the adrenalin and the excitement of the music, not stand there and admire the high production quality, stroking your chin...

I think maybe we did this to the scene ourselves, with too many drugs, music going too fast and too low quality, just mindless pounders for the pill heads, but what we have nowadays feels like a shadow of Techno's former spirit and vibe on the dancefloor.


Mattias said: "Though I know that really soon some more heavy stuff with classic feel is coming, and even some old classics will return. I hope it might change the environment a bit more over time " which I totally agree with. I think the success of Minimal and the newer Techno sound was in part a result of failings in the old Techno scene, but I am hopeful for a resurgence to some extent of the old, more underground, harder Techno vibe. I don't want 150BPM mindless distorted rubbish for kids on drugs, but I also don't want 125BPM trendy techno for ibiza posers. There's a happy medium somewhere between, and I think that Techno will find it's place in there and grow again.

think your missing my point. i hate 'minimal' as much as anybody else. i would not class this as new skool techno.in my opinion, its just dressed up house.

others though,people i do respect ( the kind of people numeric has mentioned ) have realised that they need to adapt and do something different. and i think it takes more balls to do this than just keep pumping out the same old stuff,the stuff you know people will like.

for me, this is the most exciting time in many a year for techno and my own personal tastes.there is just so much good stuff around at the moment.

[DannyBlack]

for me, this is the most exciting time in many a year for techno and my own personal tastes.there is just so much good stuff around at the moment.


link me up man, I want in on the excitement.

[teknorich]

Fair enough. Tbh, I think people like Mike Denhert, Peter Van Hoesen, Marcel Fengler, Shed etc are a lot closer to minimal than you might like to think (they have literally all been featured on the mnml ssgs page, and they are very popular with minimal heads) but they are definitely Minimal Techno rather than Minimal house, which is a big difference.

What do you think it was that made artists like them decide they needed to adapt and do something different, to make this new slower sound of Techno? Was it that Techno was stuck in a rut, churning out the same old sounds? Had people got used to it, and bored by it?

[The Teknoist.]

i think the belief that you are actually good and believe your own hype is the start of complacency and laziness and then you go down hill... imo

[Numeric]

Fair enough. Tbh, I think people like Mike Denhert, Peter Van Hoesen, Marcel Fengler, Shed etc are a lot closer to minimal than you might like to think (they have literally all been featured on the mnml ssgs page, and they are very popular with minimal heads) but they are definitely Minimal Techno rather than Minimal house, which is a big difference.


peter van hoesen - quartz no1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENfUxg21PWE&feature=related)

peter van hoesen - strip it, boost it (entropic dub) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmnxy5IR_pE&feature=related)

to me, that sounds like just techno my old friend, no need for any minimal tags :rusmile:

[basslinejunkie]

exactly.the best techno is always 'minimal' in my opinion,always has been.things like magneze by surgeon,so simple but so good.

techno always goes through phases,the sweds had funky / the drumcode thing,after that hard techno has had its time.

im sure people like regis,function,james ruskin ect ect have seen all the hype created by the 'minimal' movment and thought do you know what, i can make something so much better.

listen to some of ruskin new material. you can still tell it is ruskin,it still has his stamp,but its a bit more stripped down.

[The Teknoist.]

ego breeds contempt also, this isnt/hasnt just happened in techno... it's the never ending cycle of progression and lack of isnt it. SO frustrating though isnt it!

[teknorich]

im sure people like regis,function,james ruskin ect ect have seen all the hype created by the 'minimal' movment and thought do you know what, i can make something so much better.

Maybe so, they may have seen the explosion of slower sounds and decided to do their own version, but keeping it more Techno sounding. That Quartz No1 track Numeric posted is superb. I'd definitely enjoy that on a dancefloor, and yeah it does sound darker for being slower. It seems like you two are the most informed on this type of sound, so can you post up a few youtube links between you for recommended listening? I already know things like this:

YouTube - Len Faki - My Black Sheep (Marcel Dettmann Mix) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0SxeDNDxCk)

...which I really like, tho it could perhaps do with a bit more development during the tune. (Saying that, a lot of the Shufflemaster stuff was basically a loop but it was well done, so it pulled it's own weight).

So yeah, any tracks you or Numeric can suggest would be welcome!

[teknorich]

(I know it's a long shot, but I'd kill for this ID:

YouTube - DVS1 at Satisfied 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erBbxq9O_GQ) )

[djshiva]

it was more exciting in the 1990s, because it was newer, mor revolutionary and had fewer conventions. but there was also plenty of crap back then, and loads of good stuff being made now. it's just much more niche than it was.

electronic music, generally speaking, is much more institutionalized now. like most music scenes posing as social revolutions, it just ended up being a scene.

I don't think it was posing as a social revolution. It absolutely was one. But like most musical social revolutions, it was co-opted by capitalism and greed.

Look back through the history of music/social revolutions from jazz to rock and roll to reggae to punk rock to hip hop and it's always the same story. Youths tap into new ideas in music, build a social scene around it that challenges the mainstream, party their ****ing brains out, and then some business person realizes that there's money to be made by mass marketing not only the music but the "scene" as well. They water it down for mass consumption, and by the time it's been around a few years, there is only the slightest thread linking it back to what it was.

That doesn't devalue the reality of what it was; it just obscures it so only those interested in the roots ever bother to dig into it.

It didn't "end up" being a "scene". It ended up being a market. And that, ultimately, is what has both frustrated me, and also reminded me of why there is a necessity for a thriving underground.

That dynamic is the ultimate push/pull and the source of many frustrations, at least amongst people that I have been having this conversation with for a while. After so many years involvement, who doesn't want to perhaps make some money, travel a bit? But then you realize what that entails, what kind of commercial pusherman it can tend to make you, always promoting yourself instead of the music. Some people continue with it, others withdraw and try to find different ways to present the music and different sounds to pursue.

That, to me, is the heart of the issue. Are you in it for personal monetary gain? Or for the music and the fantastic community that can arise from music? I think it's essential to constantly scrutinize my own intentions, and I see some of that on a microcosmic scale with people I know. I think that gets lost as things get bigger, as careers get bigger, as paychecks get bigger. As does the "edge" in the music.

[TVart]

if i say i dont like new productions it will be a lie...but,, the truth is - OLDER TUNES JUST HAVE MORE ENERGY, THEY ARE MORE WILD AND DIRTY THEN THE NEW ONES. maybe i am to emotional , dont know....


btw,
when i was 16/17/18 all i was talking about, all i was doing was TECHNO it almoust all his forms... i was listening to a radio, recording shows, tracks... i was posesed.... i was drinking with my friends and have fun listening tones of tapes ,cds, or records....thats just what we are doing.
here,in serbia these days we even dont have a proper computer at our home....

todays kids have internet. end of story.


edit: sorry, everyone, for my crapy english....

[djshiva]

Regardless of my novel written above, I am RE in love with techno right now.

There is really good shit out there, you just have to dig past the Beatport Top 10 and take some time to find it. Which, if I recall correctly, was always the DJ's job. ;)

[SlavikSvensk]

I don't think it was posing as a social revolution. It absolutely was one. But like most musical social revolutions, it was co-opted by capitalism and greed.

Look back through the history of music/social revolutions from jazz to rock and roll to reggae to punk

how, exactly? what did raves or 90s electronic music culture change? it was a lot of fun, and felt like something really cutting edge. in some ways, it was cutting edge. but it didn't change anything big in society, or even really impact politics. reggae, for example, did. even that had an ambiguous effect on jamaican life, but it certainly shook things up in a way electronic dance music never did.

maybe i'm just being overly cynical, but in retrospect it just seems like an innovative way to blow off steam, backed by some fantastic music, and not too much else.

[djshiva]

how, exactly? what did raves or 90s electronic music culture change? it was a lot of fun, and felt like something really cutting edge. in some ways, it was cutting edge. but it didn't change anything big in society, or even really impact politics. reggae, for example, did. even that had an ambiguous effect on jamaican life, but it certainly shook things up in a way electronic dance music never did.

maybe i'm just being overly cynical, but in retrospect it just seems like an innovative way to blow off steam, backed by some fantastic music, and not too much else.

Really? Wow. Books have been written on this, so I'm certainly not going to cover it at length.

Firstly, let me qualify this with the disclosure that I don't necessarily believe that all impact is measurable in terms of "changing anything big in society" or "impacting politics". The personal is political, and to that end, a lot of my ideas (and my friend's ideas) of EDM culture are CERTAINLY anecdotal. But they seem to run pretty similar to other perceptions of earlier musical subcultures, so anecdotal or not, I feel there's merit there.

How do you measure someone's mind opening because of their exposure to people of all different walks of life? How do you measure realizing that the person next to you, while they may have different politics or ideologies, is dancing, right here, right now, to the same beat you are and that there's something intimate about that? How do you measure understanding that sometimes freedom is only found inside your head for those moments when the beat drops? These are all TOTALLY subjective, but potentially life-changing experiences. No way to measure them. No way to measure their impact on society or politics. But they're there. And I don't just say this from personal experience. I say this from many a discussion on this very topic.

You can accept that or dismiss it, but there it is.

Secondly, it's easy to look back on something like jazz and see the impact it made because history has had time to process it. Of all the subcultures I named, EDM is certainly the baby of the bunch, and as yet, I don't think we have a lot of distance to measure its impact.

Just to name a few impacts:

DIY (DO It Yourself, which wasn't invented by EDM but certainly had its impact on people and communities, both intentional and unintentional): people got off their asses and did it themselves.

Bedroom producers: within the time span of EDM we have seen technology begin its acceleration toward more simple and compact ways of being musicians. This is punk rock's "Anyone can have a guitar and form a band" ethos taken even further. Closely connected to DIY, but also it has helped push music technology to places we never dreamed of 20 years ago.

And politics? Really? The battles that have been fought over rave culture are pretty ****ing epic. But I could talk about that one all day and not even scratch the surface.

Anyhow, this is getting WAY off topic. If you want to start a thread specifically about this, though, I would be more than happy to chat about it. :)

p.s. Re: Jamaica. I don't think there are many musical subcultures comparable with Jamaica on many levels. I am not attempting to draw a false equivalence, believe me. But it does fall within the continuum of musical subcultures with impacts larger than the music, and that's why I mentioned it.

[The Teknoist.]

Regardless of my novel written above, I am RE in love with techno right now.

There is really good shit out there, you just have to dig past the Beatport Top 10 and take some time to find it. Which, if I recall correctly, was always the DJ's job. ;)


i agree completely. Crate dig (cyber-ly if need be) but yeah im finding a lot of great techno out atm... and am having more fun writing this album than i have writing anything for years.

My comment's have been on music in general really :)

[teknorich]

I don;t know if it has been romanticised or exagerrated, but the Criminal Justice Act in the UK was supposedly a reaction to the exposion of rave culture; that the Govt were afraid of the strength and popularity (as well as the illegal drugs etc involved and public hysteria over it) and so clamped down on it:

Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994)

Famous for using the phrase "repetitive beats" :-)

[Numeric]

So yeah, any tracks you or Numeric can suggest would be welcome!

james ruskin - solution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxKgkwssOwo)

silent servant - regis edit (album sampler one) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgBgX92BFGs&feature=related)

dvs1 - pressure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiEMHKy7Q0)

would have liked to post something more recent from ruskin but couldn't find any on youtube and that 'solution' track is still class anyway

[morbid]

so much good techno about nowadays

Things are going full circle

YouTube - Ancient Methods vs. Adam X - Mital Regurgitation (Ancient Methods Mix) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ0N3DJ__iI&feature=related)

YouTube - Kevin Gorman - Insomnia (Joseph Capriati's Dark Night Remix) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZZx3OOtvVs&feature=related)

YouTube - Deadbeat - Grounation (Berghain Drum Jack) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TI5xcyzwu8)

YouTube - Marcel Fengler - Thwack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xFW1DA-kY&feature=related)

YouTube - Traversable Wormhole - Transducer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMhHlbt6frA)

YouTube - Terence Fixmer - Drastik (Planetary Assault Systems Remix) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D-49hxj_RU&feature=related)

YouTube - Sascha Müller - Destruction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtQWvz5-9Xs&feature=related)

[djshiva]

Some great music suggested above!

Some Youtube links to tunes that have really been hitting on a level that brings back my excitement about techno:

MD2 - MD2.3 (Mike Dehnert) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArLHlmSscvI)

Adam Jay - Techno's Coming Back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i4vixhsusQ)

EQD - Equalized 003 A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIt_Iwcyv24)

EQD - Equalized 003 B (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWdlmsZy3XI)

^^^I love both of those so much I couldn't pick just one. LOL

Dexter - Redbox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNSIMHCxD_E)

Mike Humphries - Tactical Recon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipZBDzeRF_Q)

Traversable Wormhole - Closed Timelike Curve (Marcel Dettmann Rmx) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeDGATeEPHQ)

Pfirter - Superventricular (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mk-m3fPNHk)

There is fantastic music out there, with plenty of "edge". I promise. :D

[SlavikSvensk]

Really? Wow. Books have been written on this, so I'm certainly not going to cover it at length.

Firstly, let me qualify this with the disclosure that I don't necessarily believe that all impact is measurable in terms of "changing anything big in society" or "impacting politics". The personal is political, and to that end, a lot of my ideas (and my friend's ideas) of EDM culture are CERTAINLY anecdotal. But they seem to run pretty similar to other perceptions of earlier musical subcultures, so anecdotal or not, I feel there's merit there.

How do you measure someone's mind opening because of their exposure to people of all different walks of life? How do you measure realizing that the person next to you, while they may have different politics or ideologies, is dancing, right here, right now, to the same beat you are and that there's something intimate about that? How do you measure understanding that sometimes freedom is only found inside your head for those moments when the beat drops? These are all TOTALLY subjective, but potentially life-changing experiences. No way to measure them. No way to measure their impact on society or politics. But they're there. And I don't just say this from personal experience. I say this from many a discussion on this very topic.

You can accept that or dismiss it, but there it is.

Secondly, it's easy to look back on something like jazz and see the impact it made because history has had time to process it. Of all the subcultures I named, EDM is certainly the baby of the bunch, and as yet, I don't think we have a lot of distance to measure its impact.

Just to name a few impacts:

DIY (DO It Yourself, which wasn't invented by EDM but certainly had its impact on people and communities, both intentional and unintentional): people got off their asses and did it themselves.

Bedroom producers: within the time span of EDM we have seen technology begin its acceleration toward more simple and compact ways of being musicians. This is punk rock's "Anyone can have a guitar and form a band" ethos taken even further. Closely connected to DIY, but also it has helped push music technology to places we never dreamed of 20 years ago.

And politics? Really? The battles that have been fought over rave culture are pretty ****ing epic. But I could talk about that one all day and not even scratch the surface.

Anyhow, this is getting WAY off topic. If you want to start a thread specifically about this, though, I would be more than happy to chat about it. :)

p.s. Re: Jamaica. I don't think there are many musical subcultures comparable with Jamaica on many levels. I am not attempting to draw a false equivalence, believe me. But it does fall within the continuum of musical subcultures with impacts larger than the music, and that's why I mentioned it.

it's only a social revolution if it brings lasting change, or at least has some measurable effect on society. of music based subcultures, i'd say only reggae and the hippie movement even did that. maybe punk too, but maybe not.

raves constituted a very interesting social phenomenon, for a while. again, maybe i'm just being overly cynical, but i think, taking the long view, they didn't end up having that much impact outside the people who went to them for that limited time in the 90s.

[Jay Pace]

Raves in the UK lead to changes in government policy and the legal system. Not bad for a bunch of wreckheads jumping around to repetitive beats.

[SlavikSvensk]

Raves in the UK lead to changes in government policy and the legal system. Not bad for a bunch of wreckheads jumping around to repetitive beats.

in what sense, though? directly or not directly related to the raves themselves?

[Jay Pace]

Directly
Criminal Justice Act was a direct response to raves, lead to massive protests and redefined the way the police dealt with crowds. The powers handed to the police to shut down raves of thousands of people ended up being used to shut down birthday bbqs with a dozen people. Raves also redefined how criminal networks operated and managed the demand for a new type of product (dance drugs), and it pushed drugs and drug culture into the mainstream. When raves eventually went indoors, into clubs, organised events or became festivals, they took all the baggage of raves with them - shady promoters, massive organised drug dealing, voracious drug consumption etc. Raves pushed a lot of "underground" things into mainstream consciousness.

Not sure if all the long lasting effects of raves were necessarily good things (horrible aggressive over-pólicing of all public gatherings being one of them). But they had a long lasting effect in england, set a lot of the precedents still being followed today. Also, there were strange unexpected effects, such as a decrease in football violence.

Anyways, lots of things changed.

Techno - don't personally think its lost its edge. Its difficult to detach the music in the 90s from the 90s themselves. I enjoyed going out more then, but I was younger, the context was different, everything was newer etc. Still think there are people putting out good tracks, djs playing good sets, live acts rocking it etc. Can't judge a scene based on whatever dross beatport has in its top ten.

[SlavikSvensk]

temporarily, yes. but how much is of lasting significance? how did raves affect politics or social life beyond the confines of the raves themselves?

a social revolution is something that broadly changes social life, or at least attempts to broadly change social life, outside the confines of itself. raves were a scene that many parts of society felt threatened by, but mostly for what was going on within them (i.e. "won't someone think of the children?!"), not for their effect on politics or mainstream, as with the hippie movement and reggae in jamaica. at least, that's how i've come to see it after gaining some distance from it...it did seem a lot more revolutionary at the time.

[teknorich]

The prophecy of 1994 | Ally Fogg | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jul/21/criminal-justice-bill-protests)

More than you might think, in the UK at least.

[djshiva]

YouTube - Deadbeat - Grounation (Berghain Drum Jack) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TI5xcyzwu8)


Oh my. Thanks for the heads up on that one!!! :D

[Jay Pace]

temporarily, yes. but how much is of lasting significance? how did raves affect politics or social life beyond the confines of the raves themselves?

Like I said, its legacy has mainly been the laws and powers that were drawn up specifically to combat the terror of "music partly or wholly characterised by repetitive beats". Those laws continue to be used today, to subjugate otherwise lawful assemblies of people whose only crime is to be playing music.

Article technorich posted is great. This:


Fifteen years on, there is little pleasure to be gained from saying "we told you so". But the manner in which a law designed to prevent the wholesale mayhem of Castlemorton can now be used to foreclose a birthday party should serve as a stark warning to those currently considering a raft of other illiberal legislation, from the coroners and justice bill to the various ID card proposals. Those who deride the contributors to liberty central when they warn about the incessant creep of police powers, or who scoff at "slippery slope" arguments around civil liberties, should bear in mind that we stood at the top of one of those slopes only 15 short years ago, and we have slid a long way down it since.

It hasn't been a particular positive legacy, but its been an important one - raves redefined the relationship between the police and the public.

[SlavikSvensk]

Like I said, its legacy has mainly been the laws and powers that were drawn up specifically to combat the terror of "music partly or wholly characterised by repetitive beats". Those laws continue to be used today, to subjugate otherwise lawful assemblies of people whose only crime is to be playing music.

Article technorich posted is great. This:

It hasn't been a particular positive legacy, but its been an important one - raves redefined the relationship between the police and the public.

Fair enough, but I still don't see how this makes raves a social revolution, which I think many people at the time genuinely thought it was. My original point was that it didn't deliver on its promise of entirely new social relations, a new politics and so on. Probably the promise itself was delusional, for those who bought into it. Well-intentioned, but naive...

That said, great music and parties.

[The Overfiend]

if i say i dont like new productions it will be a lie...but,, the truth is - OLDER TUNES JUST HAVE MORE ENERGY, THEY ARE MORE WILD AND DIRTY THEN THE NEW ONES. maybe i am to emotional , dont know....


btw,
when i was 16/17/18 all i was talking about, all i was doing was TECHNO it almoust all his forms... i was listening to a radio, recording shows, tracks... i was posesed.... i was drinking with my friends and have fun listening tones of tapes ,cds, or records....thats just what we are doing.
here,in serbia these days we even dont have a proper computer at our home....

todays kids have internet. end of story.


edit: sorry, everyone, for my crapy english....


best answer right here

[djshiva]

Fair enough, but I still don't see how this makes raves a social revolution, which I think many people at the time genuinely thought it was. My original point was that it didn't deliver on its promise of entirely new social relations, a new politics and so on. Probably the promise itself was delusional, for those who bought into it. Well-intentioned, but naive...

That said, great music and parties.

I think it's essential to separate the lofty (mostly drug induced) lovey dovey rhetoric and look at the reality. Catchphrases and big ideas are just ideology.

Look, I came up in the DIY political punk scene in the late 80s/early 90s. Was there any measurable social change that came from that? Again, books have been written on this. No need for me to retread old ground. Well, it had a MAJOR influence on me personally, and I have continued doing my best to stay true to DIY principles where I can, and I work for a progressive nonprofit. All of that stems from punk rock, and to a certain degree, from the rave scene as well.

Am I the only one? I damn well doubt it. Is this anecdotal? Totally. But still no less true.

And the political/legal ramifications of the culture are undeniable. It changed laws. It made people have to stand up and fight.

CJB is one example. In the States, they took us apart state by state, city by city. The fight was still there, but it was a very different one, and in a lot of ways, MUCH more difficult. But it still happened. And there are people I talk to today who are still involved with groups fighting the criminalization of our culture.

[DannyBlack]

I think it's essential to separate the lofty (mostly drug induced) lovey dovey rhetoric and look at the reality. Catchphrases and big ideas are just ideology.

Look, I came up in the DIY political punk scene in the late 80s/early 90s. Was there any measurable social change that came from that? Again, books have been written on this. No need for me to retread old ground. Well, it had a MAJOR influence on me personally, and I have continued doing my best to stay true to DIY principles where I can, and I work for a progressive nonprofit. All of that stems from punk rock, and to a certain degree, from the rave scene as well.

Am I the only one? I damn well doubt it. Is this anecdotal? Totally. But still no less true.

And the political/legal ramifications of the culture are undeniable. It changed laws. It made people have to stand up and fight.

CJB is one example. In the States, they took us apart state by state, city by city. The fight was still there, but it was a very different one, and in a lot of ways, MUCH more difficult. But it still happened. And there are people I talk to today who are still involved with groups fighting the criminalization of our culture.


:notworthy:

[basslinejunkie]

nfn - Ben Klock @ Voices, Propaganda, Moscow 30.07.10 - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/nfn/ben-klock-voices-propaganda-moscow-30-07-10)

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service (http://megaupload.com/?d=GA4CW2JD)

have a go of this people. see what u think.

[SicknoteSteve]

Techno for me house always been anti establishment in the face of the Criminal Justice Act, police, politicians and the main stream media.

That was only because all of them decided to pick a fight with a load of people having fun and causing a bit of mischeif in a field, squat or anywhere else we might get away with it.

I used to be bang into the psy trance scene until the politics and tbh the music started to do me right in.

Techno has always had an anarchistic edge to it, the idea that you come along and dance, get mashed if you fancy it and you wont get judged.

Theres no one big ideology fueling the whole thing other than to have fun and do what you want away from the mainstream.

Has techno lost its edge?

Well most of the 'techno' scene has moved to tendy minimal crap with a load of twats in skinny jeans dancing to rubbish.

Does this piss me off?

For sure, but I started a techno night a year back for this reason with an old mate and we have been booking acts who still put a shit eating grin on our faces.

Chir Lib and a load of the SUF lot, Carl Falk, Ignition Technician and Billy Nasty.

Get yourselves down to Brighton to a Sicknote and then tell me techno has lost its edge.

Yea, it has started to slide but do something ****ing about it!!!

[crime]

I was going to write:



This thread is Banal- how many times has the question been asked? Make something new if you don't like what's around, why waste your life discussing the toss on forums when you could be making something different instead?

but then I thought it better that you just listened to my new live act , ave that you ****ers:

Mark Hawkins - Live Test part 2: the harder stuff - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/mark-hawkins/live-test-part-2-the-harder-stuff)

[FuK-NuT]

can not be arsed with the rantings and debate on where its at, been at or going...

to me techno has, is and will probably always be my prefered choice of music to listen
to....if i feel im getting a bit fed up with a certain sound then ill go have a rake at other
sounds within the genre or just have a simple break from it and come back with fresh lugs...
(has worked for over 10 years)

without a doubt there is tons and tons off good beats coming thro or yet to
be discovered...half the fun about being a dj is digging the crates and finding
the gems...maybe people should get of there arses stop moaning and do something
about it....make the beats, put on the party, get people talking about it cause as
soon as u stop talking about it, its fuked!!!

get active!

[MARK ANXIOUS]

I don't think it was posing as a social revolution. It absolutely was one. But like most musical social revolutions, it was co-opted by capitalism and greed.

Look back through the history of music/social revolutions from jazz to rock and roll to reggae to punk rock to hip hop and it's always the same story. Youths tap into new ideas in music, build a social scene around it that challenges the mainstream, party their ****ing brains out, and then some business person realizes that there's money to be made by mass marketing not only the music but the "scene" as well. They water it down for mass consumption, and by the time it's been around a few years, there is only the slightest thread linking it back to what it was.

That doesn't devalue the reality of what it was; it just obscures it so only those interested in the roots ever bother to dig into it.

It didn't "end up" being a "scene". It ended up being a market. And that, ultimately, is what has both frustrated me, and also reminded me of why there is a necessity for a thriving underground.

That dynamic is the ultimate push/pull and the source of many frustrations, at least amongst people that I have been having this conversation with for a while. After so many years involvement, who doesn't want to perhaps make some money, travel a bit? But then you realize what that entails, what kind of commercial pusherman it can tend to make you, always promoting yourself instead of the music. Some people continue with it, others withdraw and try to find different ways to present the music and different sounds to pursue.

That, to me, is the heart of the issue. Are you in it for personal monetary gain? Or for the music and the fantastic community that can arise from music? I think it's essential to constantly scrutinize my own intentions, and I see some of that on a microcosmic scale with people I know. I think that gets lost as things get bigger, as careers get bigger, as paychecks get bigger. As does the "edge" in the music.

that's a really good post shiva. i've seen this with every single dance music genre i've ever been involved in - from chicago house, acid to certain corners of techno itself. the thing is, techno has always been the genre that has managed to somehow pull itself away from disappearing into the mainstream entirely. it reinvents itself and moves too fast. also the anarchic and ant-establishment ideals that most techno music creates are perhaps it's strongest positives and what has kept it here for so long...

[Numeric]

nfn - Ben Klock @ Voices, Propaganda, Moscow 30.07.10 - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/nfn/ben-klock-voices-propaganda-moscow-30-07-10)

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service (http://megaupload.com/?d=GA4CW2JD)

have a go of this people. see what u think.

could you re-up this please man?

[basslinejunkie]

i will mate when i get my laptop fixed

[Elvio Neto]

nfn - Ben Klock @ Voices, Propaganda, Moscow 30.07.10 - SoundCloud (http://soundcloud.com/nfn/ben-klock-voices-propaganda-moscow-30-07-10)

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service (http://megaupload.com/?d=GA4CW2JD)

have a go of this people. see what u think.

nice set ;)

[JE:5]

so where do YOU stand ? was it really 'better back in 97' or is it that the same tired cry of ppl who jus moved on min their musical tastes ?



D I S C U S S

Nah, it was better in 1995 ;)

[Darkmode]

Techno for me house always been anti establishment in the face of the Criminal Justice Act, police, politicians and the main stream media.

That was only because all of them decided to pick a fight with a load of people having fun and causing a bit of mischeif in a field, squat or anywhere else we might get away with it.

I used to be bang into the psy trance scene until the politics and tbh the music started to do me right in.

Techno has always had an anarchistic edge to it, the idea that you come along and dance, get mashed if you fancy it and you wont get judged.

Theres no one big ideology fueling the whole thing other than to have fun and do what you want away from the mainstream.

Has techno lost its edge?

Well most of the 'techno' scene has moved to tendy minimal crap with a load of twats in skinny jeans dancing to rubbish.

Does this piss me off?

For sure, but I started a techno night a year back for this reason with an old mate and we have been booking acts who still put a shit eating grin on our faces.

Chir Lib and a load of the SUF lot, Carl Falk, Ignition Technician and Billy Nasty.

Get yourselves down to Brighton to a Sicknote and then tell me techno has lost its edge.

Yea, it has started to slide but do something ****ing about it!!!

Nice to see someone stick their guns & run a Techno night that plays real Techno & does not follow trends ;-)