Why is it this part of the forum always gets so political?

I've noticed this for sure recently on here and I notice it on alot of other boards (but more often than not - alot worse!). There's some serious differences of opinion on this techno discussion forum and I'm wondering why people think that actually is.

I've often put it down to the fact that techno is once of the broadest genre's out there and therefore so many people have different ideas as to what techno actually should be. It has after all been with us for around twenty years.

What do you lot think?

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

I've often put it down to the fact that techno is once of the broadest genre's out there and therefore so many people have different ideas as to what techno actually should be. It has after all been with us for around twenty years.

What do you lot think?

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Snobbery. As you say, techno is a broad genre. That means there's going to be a huge amount of people who think what they listen to somehow makes them better than those people who listen to something different.

It seems to me that a lot of people into techno feel that because what they listen to isn't as obvious or immediately appealing to the masses, that in some way makes them special. Hence the backlash against Prime. If someone could offer constructive criticism as to why Prime's stuff (just to use the recent example, but this could also apply to the slagging off of any style of music) is so bad, I'd give it the time it deserves. But when people dismiss it by saying it's "lame, generic, easy-access, unchallenging, boring, unimaginative drivel" and that those who listen to that sort of techno would be better off listening to hard house, as if their taste is so much more valid, that gets my back up.

I don't mean to sound overly scathing, but it's hard not to be when it comes to people thinking they are in some way superior to others.

Rant over...

I think it`s because people are so passionate about the genre, and it is so broad, on most forums it`s always techno where the arguents are.

the thing is, those are into techno eat sleep and breath it. i've never met anyone that was just "sorta" into it. techno is a universal language with many dialects.

feckin trainspotters the lot of ya ;)

mark, it's all attitude.

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Originally Posted by Paul Zykotik

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

I've often put it down to the fact that techno is once of the broadest genre's out there and therefore so many people have different ideas as to what techno actually should be. It has after all been with us for around twenty years.

What do you lot think?

---

Snobbery. As you say, techno is a broad genre. That means there's going to be a huge amount of people who think what they listen to somehow makes them better than those people who listen to something different.

It seems to me that a lot of people into techno feel that because what they listen to isn't as obvious or immediately appealing to the masses, that in some way makes them special. Hence the backlash against Prime. If someone could offer constructive criticism as to why Prime's stuff (just to use the recent example, but this could also apply to the slagging off of any style of music) is so bad, I'd give it the time it deserves. But when people dismiss it by saying it's "lame, generic, easy-access, unchallenging, boring, unimaginative drivel" and that those who listen to that sort of techno would be better off listening to hard house, as if their taste is so much more valid, that gets my back up.

I don't mean to sound overly scathing, but it's hard not to be when it comes to people thinking they are in some way superior to others.

Rant over...

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was that general comment to the people of that thread?

i mean there was some good comments no?

i don't like prime cause they don't have any kind of values. they are interested in one thing that is making money. there's no push towards a new day. that creed has no place in such a small person to person based genre of music. i agree that people are demanding in techno though. but that's my opinion and i think it's credible paul.

if it sounds like i'm offended, i'm not. i don't particularly enjoy prime's in house or most labels on prime (mostly cause they don't dare themselves to step out of the 1999 box). that's just the way it is for me. it's not an attitude thing nor a snob thing. forgive me, but it just sounded like you were grouping people together.

respect.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

I've often put it down to the fact that techno is once of the broadest genre's out there and therefore so many people have different ideas as to what techno actually should be. It has after all been with us for around twenty years.

What do you lot think?

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"Techno ergo sum" - "I techno therefore I am."
- Rene Descartes. 8)

People have a lot to say about techno. The genre is split into so many ways. These splits tend to cause friction occasionally.

Its the passion that drives the arguments.

The microcosom of the macrocosom:

As I understand the problem (and this is only one interpretation I learned in uni), when people find themselves identifying with a particular group, by choice (like music), or by necessity (like race), strange things happen. For example, an individual's self-esteem is strongly influenced by the self-esteem of the group as a whole. Following this, individuals will act (perhaps, even subconsciously), to enhance the value of their group as a whole, and in the process, increase their own self-esteem. When the group as a whole succeeds, then the self-esteem of the individuals identifying with that group also rises, sometimes to incredible levels. When the group as a whole fails, then, the individuals who identify with the group generally tend to feel badly about themselves.

A nice example involves the EuroCup (football), if that's what it is called; I can't remember. When your team ascends to the next level of competition, eliminating an opponent, the whole country represented by that team feels good, if not great. If your team wins the championship, then the whole country erupts in a feeling of euphoria that will unite, for the moment, not only all splinters of the techno community, but also trance lovers, hardhousers, and every other person (include nutter in pub) who feels like they identify with the group represented by the winning team. All differences, for the moment are lost. The group is united, in feeling good. In this example, an individual's self-esteem goes up or down with the group as a whole, which, in turn, is heavily dependent upon the sucess of the football team.

Once people identify with a particular group they also come to see outsiders (and other groups) differently (in some cases as a threat), and in many instances act, perhaps automatically (something like a biological reaction), to re-establish/re-affirm their own group-identity by a) doing things that improve, or attempt to improve the value/importance of their own group, and/or b) denying the value/importance of another group (most common on a forum), which, in the process, again defines their own group boundaries and seeks to make their own group look better.

Group identity conflct can be seen everywhere in the world, sometimes manifesting in violent confrontation. Splintering in the techno community is really no different in this regard, though hopefully resticted to peaceful spirited argument. At worse forum board slagging.

Why does techno have more ingroup fighting than trance? I might guess that techno as a group has either a) a stronger following with more stlyes to idenify with, allowing for the emergence of more groups, and therefore more conflict, or b) that, perhaps, trance is being attacked by so many outside groups that the trance group, as a whole, spends too much time defending itself as a whole to bother infighting about different trance styles or c) trance is really only trance and can't be divided up into so many splitter groups. Anyways, I'm just guessing here.

The point of all this being to express that slagging off other types of music "might" be an innate biological reaction. For example, I might not believe myself to belong to any particular sub-group of techno. Let's just say I like techno as a whole. And let's just say I also happen to like and buy Ben Sims' records. Now, If someone comes on the board and starts a thread called "Ben's records suck and Wilson is great" I "might" feel bad about myself, especially if lots of people agree. Of course, being entitles to my own opinion I can respond with some kind of comeback like "Wilson sucks, Ben rocks, you don't know @#!%" however, the "need" to respond might, and this is the point, be sub-conscious and/or automatic; some say biological. Consequently, a debate evolves where you say its good, I say its bad, and hopefully we all live happily ever after. Nevertheless, the purpose behind such a response (the slagging off of Wilson) will be automatic and intended to make me feel better about my new group (people who like Ben's records) and, therefore, myself.

While it might be nice hear reasoned arguments for why someone does not like another style of music, that may be besides the point. What people want when they say that "that music" sucks is too feel good about first, their group, and consequently, themselves. If they win followers, fine, but that is not the first purpose.

Just my reflection.

Peace

Steady on Orange! That'll do for a thesis, never mind a reply to my topic :lol:

My main response is when you gave the reasons for less in fighting in trance than techno. I think the reason A) was the closest - techno has a stronger following with more styles to idenify with, allowing for the emergence of more groups, and therefore more conflict.

But it's not that they necessarily have a 'stronger' following. Definitely more styles for sure.

The other reasons made me think but to be honest the trance group on here is more of a hard trance group. sure 'trance' gets ripped to shreds but i'm sure i speak for most ppl on the trance board that they believe they are different. ie more 'Underground' trance. in fact the style of trance that is mainly talked about on that forum (hard trance) will only sell perhaps 500 units in this country (if that) as opposed to paul van dyk trance that sells bucket loads.

Anyway, totally interesting read m8..

No prob :)

i think that every year underground trance and techno get closer and closer- there is some techno-trance out there that isn't even remotely uplifting....................check the hi-hats on some tunes!!!
...............i also think that in the trance forum we really don't argue so much if peeeps disagrree on liking a certain tune, producer etc.. because if we all like the same tunes then we begin to lose our identities.....it would end up like happy hardcore, where you had different dj's playing the same records all night.....which would do our sound not favoures whatsoever.. a differnce in ideas can be very healthy and it definately adds diversity..... for instance mindcontroller2003, some like it some don't.....which means its not going to get played to death and either a)become so played that it becomes commercial or b) everyone just gets sick of it and then when sys-x release a next record you think "oh no not again, i got sick of there last record"!
difference in opinion (aka variety) is the spice of life :arrow:

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Originally Posted by Adverse

was that general comment to the people of that thread?

i mean there was some good comments no?

i don't like prime cause they don't have any kind of values. they are interested in one thing that is making money. there's no push towards a new day. that creed has no place in such a small person to person based genre of music. i agree that people are demanding in techno though. but that's my opinion and i think it's credible paul.

if it sounds like i'm offended, i'm not. i don't particularly enjoy prime's in house or most labels on prime (mostly cause they don't dare themselves to step out of the 1999 box). that's just the way it is for me. it's not an attitude thing nor a snob thing. forgive me, but it just sounded like you were grouping people together.

respect.

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Apologies for the "blanket" criticism on that thread :) It was only aimed at a couple of posters rather than everybody who had said Prime wasn't to their taste.

I don't have any problems at all with your opinion - one I'm still not sure I agree with, but then where would be the fun if there weren't any disputes? :wink:

Respect for actually giving a reason as to why you don't like it rather than just stating "it's crap" as if your word is gospel, as many techno listeners seem to believe :roll:

My attack was levelled at those people who didn't have anything better to offer then a couple of stereotypical insults about that style of techno and the people who listen to it. If there's one thing that's plagued dance music - and techno in particular - it's this dismissive attitude that does no-one any good.

To all those people...you don't like it, you don't listen to it. Simple as.

Outta here...

i agree with billy, some ppl are so passionate about techno that it creates arguments, i also think there are a lot of people (me inlcuded) of techno ever becoming mainstream... These ppl, whoever they may be, therefore are quick to regect any tracks they believe are distorting the underground nature of techno....

i agree with billy, some ppl are so passionate about techno that it creates arguments.

I also think there are a lot of people (me inlcuded) who are scared of techno ever becoming mainstream... These ppl, whoever they may be, therefore are quick to regect any tracks they believe are distorting the underground nature of techno.... eg. the piccoto arguments that are synonomous with most boards and to a lesser extent valentino and more recently FERGIE??!


any thoughts?

I posted a topic similar to this in the Trance corner...

http://www.blackoutaudio.co.uk/phpBB...e46486232d3a41