i think not, but others think so...
prob a well discussed point but has anyone seen what they percieve as any breakthrough in this field ?
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i think not, but others think so...
prob a well discussed point but has anyone seen what they percieve as any breakthrough in this field ?
i love that familiar sound of a good can of worms opening.....
dj tools are not killing techno, thats a strong word, but they are definately playing a part in the current lull that techno finds itself in at the moment...
there are some who use tools well, there are some who dont
:lol: indeedQuote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
there have always been the loop producers from day one imo, but it seems to be more prevelant these days, though there werent so many 3 deck djs 7 or 8 years back i guess
It ain`t hard to make a loop that runs for 6 mins.
So no, it isn`t killing techno, but it means there is a lot more cack out there made by DJ`s purely for DJ`s, and not necessarily made by musicians.
i think thats the word i was lookin for there Steve, musicians ;)
for some people, its possible that the production technology is dictating the composition.
for example-
FruityLoops seems designed to make techno sound like, ummm loops. Unless you really try to sound more composed.
My preference is Cubasis VST4 because its stripped down so far that i can fly thru compositions with a minimum of looping.
imo everything has its own place. at da club, i love to see a good dj wreck the place with loopy records and crazy dj skills (altho i dont see too many people doing this - sims springs to mind) as well a dj standing there taking 3 mins to cue the next track knowing that if he mixed it in b4 then it would crash like a rolling stone.
agree with this, but not your fruity comment (i dont use it, but i dont think it matters what seq software u use, so long as u abuse it)[/quote]Quote:
for some people, its possible that the production technology is dictating the composition.
Don't agree with the software/technology thing at all. Its all a matter of inspiration and imagination. Marco Carola reportedly has a state of the art high end recording studio, and he cranks out the loopy bangers.
But to clarify with you lot, how do you determine "looped techno"? doesn't most of techno's power lie in repetition? Give me some clarification and some examples.
I think they mean pretty much where its the same loop for 5 mins with only a few wee hat changes etc.. of course the main groove of a record has to loop it but there is plenty of stuff that can vary within and around that
I'm actually looking for DJtools sometimes... They aren't a main part of my sets, but sometimes it's just nice to be able to vary quickly by adding a loop here and there to two already banging tracks (in a 3 or more deck setup)
IMHO it should only be as an add-on to your set and not be used too much, altho it would be quite impressive to do a 2hr set with just DJ-tools, and still keep it interresting :twisted:
Welcome on BOA Rydel. ;)
DJ Tools are killing the scene. :lol: :lol:
the only dj tools i own are some locked grooves on the b sides of some recordsk.
I much prefer listening to something as steve said, that a musician has made, something that evolves a little over the course of the record
Thanx, m8..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee
Ontopic: Still I think it depends on how you make use of them, if you just play lot's of locked grooves that all have the same speed, then any1 can DJ... BUT it takes a good DJ to do something interresting with a 6 minute long loop :nono:
I agree about using it to make loops, but listen to anything by Ian Lehman...composed solely from Fruity Loops and his music definitely is not loopy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Internal Error Records
loop techno doesnt kill techno !
i actually think its not an easy kindof techno to produce. Sure melodic techno & non pattenrish sequencing (that exists !) sound harder to produce at first sight.
But the "good" loop techno is hard to do. The good loops techno consists in making the track sound loopy, ie easy to mix in 3 sec for the technically gifted, but making the track having a constant unperciptible variation.
Some good examples of that are Jeff Mills, Basic Channel, constantly playing with delays, decays and reverb and that make their sounds behind the drums live, without any patternish attitude, nad become obssessive. And the tracks can stay for long and not sound boring. In another kinf, the likes Surgeon, using industrial sounds constantly moving behing some basic drum programming are also taleented to make the good loopy tracks.
Oh the other hand there are producers thiking that take three loops from some old drum track, add a few home made (or sample cd made) drum pattern layered and overcompressed make the trick. Then the sequencing is all about adding / removing some of this loop during 5 or 6 minutes. EH !! Thats this kindof fake music taht kills techno, becasue it sounds cheap, repetitive, and useless. But dont messup this music with loop techno. They sound similar but dont desserve the same respect.
WHAT IS looptechno?
WHAT IS dj tools?
When people are saying that looptechno kills techno...they've insulted Robert Hood, Jeff Mills and Maurizio's productions, in a BIG WAY.
dj tools are a great thing i think, but too much of it gets annoying, unless you're on 3+ decks and tearing shit up like crazy
i prefer more of the musical techno, with nice synth/basslines/chords, etc....
but for me, all techno is great, i dont discriminate
acappella are DJ tools, theres mellodies with little percussion or bassline which can be consieved as DJ tools. i've heard all of these used effectively to layer an otherwise 1 dimentional track live.
its not the tools that are 'killing' techno, its the lack of imagination behind the people who use the tools.
its the DJs job to weed out the interesting tracks from the naff or monotonous records and to play them in an interesting way. if people are complaining that the music being released is substandard, then they should stop buying it and DJs should stop playing them.
Techno is FAR from being killed, its very much alive !
I wish people would stop saying negative shit like this ! you are either going to the wrong place to hear it or buying the wrong records!
I hear "loopy" tunes in clubs and on vinyl that make the hairs on my neck stand on end, new and old !
;) dittoQuote:
Originally Posted by LOCKED
Arguably all vinyl is a DJ tool.
imagine if a hip hop dj played battle records back to back instead of scratching. it would be terrible. hip hop dj's seem to have a better grip on the difference between a battle record and a regular track than techno dj's do. way too many techno dj's are letting records play that simply don't stand on their own.
yeaha. it takes alot of skill to make Fruityloops not sound loopy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Isaac
the positive side of Fruityloops and Reason is that you can sound like everybody else.
the negative side of Fruityloops and Reason is that you can sound like everybody else.
just my .02
Are there many techno DJ battles round your way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil G
no, but maybe there should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil G
W0000000000000000000000000000t
competition does do wonders for motivating people to excel, you just have to be careful not to let it impact the unity aspect of the scene. friendly competition is the way. :cool:
As a techno dj i find tools(looped techno with minimal dynamic change)essential for mixing techno as they give me full controll over the pace and energy of the music.
I would say that around 75% of the records I use in a set will be tools and tend to use the more song based/structured techno at vital points of the set using them to make more of an impact or for bridging between sections.
The more looped based stuff is best for building energy and groove.
I like to dictate when there should be a change and not let the records do it for me plus i like to be in the mix most of the time I dont like standing around doing nothing I prefer bringing records in as soon as possible and leaving them in as long as needed and I feel that tools give the freedom to do this the best.
Like most people have expressed in the past couple of pages of this thread you realy have to be creative and work these records to get the best out of them by using an extra turntable,EQ,FX(not just a flanger),a sampler,some hardware whatever you can incorparate just dont stand there letting them play unless your Mark EG and your busy breaking stuff, shouting rude words at the crowd and dancing like a mad man.
I belive if you give 10 DJs the same 2 songbased/structured techno records you can garrantee at least 4 of them will come up with the same way of mixing those two records together where as with more tool based records the chances of coming up with the same mix is much less likely(this is just my opinion and not fact)
You realy need to use all sorts of techno to get the most out of it.Its there to be abused and creative with and gives you the fredom to use your imagination this is what techno is all about and what makes it stand out from the crowd IMO ;) .
wow!!! I wish they had those in UK or if they do - where are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by ncw
. . . er and on topic . . . no I dont think they are :lol: . . . couldnt realy answer the question as it gets me thinking - what is techno? and of the difference between the musician and the DJ - I dont want to let it bother me else I get lost worrying whether Im 'techno' or not. If Blackout Audio was Open University and I was on for a scholars degree, then Id try write a thesis.
. . . but I suppose to summarise - if you didnt have DJs (or DJ tools), techno would still be around - so in a nutshell 'no'.
a record cant kill techno :nono:
btw, wasnt insinuating that tools are killing anything..
maybe 'are dj tools stifling creativity' wouldve been a better title :lol:
This may be true maybe but one of the fundemental parts of being a hip hop dj is digging around in old records lookin for that wicked 8 bar break to manualy loop and cut up where as techno is more about playing rythm and textures to create energy and atmosphereQuote:
Originally Posted by Evil G
:clap: I couldnt agree more if your going to play somthing so minimal you have to make it intresting somehow unless your playing to a room with just me in it as i can listen to the same loop for ages i love the repitition and start to hear my own changes eventualy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil G
But in any other case please make it intresting.
i thought records were designed 'minimally' with the intent of layering several at a time!
witness Ritchie Hawtins decks,effx,&909.
thats using minimal properly!
some techno is written so minimally that it wouldnt make good background music on an elevator.
In that caseQuote:
Originally Posted by perpetual
If your a musician yes if your a DJ no
well, i dj & write. and have been in bands since i was about 11 (31 now) so theres another twist :lol:
i dig a lot of what your sayin bout using tools stemindful. your approach to djing sounds very close to mine.. you'd rather been straight back to the groove than waiting 3 mins & letting trx play..
again, depends what you dig i guess.
as a fan of lock grooves & fx & 3rd deck or groovebox or whatever, i think things are healthy. but i know others who will say different.. though they like dn :lol:
j/k
:shock: 31 you old git only joking :lol: .
I agree things are healthy its down to the indavidual to buy/make/play what they percive to be good and be as creative as they can with it.
It's all about how you use a record
Loops are not killing techno, they are saturating the market.
The program that is used to make techno is not killing techno, it is the "Artist" that pumps out the same doo, that is killing techno.
Negativity kills techno, as does greed, ego, and spite.
Just because some one uses pencil not paint does that make the overall result anything less than a canvas painted with a brush?
You can use any program you want and make gold. I don't blame a program I blame the user. Someone who uses Fruity can very well make results that sound better than logic if you know what you are doing and have the talent to do so.
Its just a quality issue. Mills pretty much started the techno DJ tool trend with the Purposemaker series. I don't think that it has really been bettered. You could argue that functionality in this case is more important than it standing up as a piece of music.
Doesn't seem to have hurt a lot of the big techno DJs over the last 15 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by SummerOfSam
That's a handful compared to the whole chief.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindful
...but only if you turn towards techno for inspiration... As for DJ tools, they're just that, tools. But for me, the problem would be the lack of "proper" techno tunes because it seems that tools sell better than tunes.
do you mean "tunes" as in intro, middle and ending with something creative in the middle?Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofuse
how can we possibly create music like this. its much easier to write a loop and multiply it 48 times.
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by SummerOfSam
ALL records are DJ tools to me. The thing thats annoying (whether or not it's killing techno is debateable) is that there are too many boring unimaginative featureless techno loop records to such an extent that finding anything of quality in hard techno is becoming a bit of an unpleasant chore. One of the reasons I lean more toward the techno end of acid techno.
I reckon if you could get just about every techno loop arrangement on about 50 records and never have to buy one of that style again as the only thing different is whatever EQ setting is perceived as being good production at the time. It's very subject to fashion and there's always plenty people rich enough and stupid enough to put out pap on vinyl just to sooth their themselves from the harsh reality that outside their techno ability they are in fact talentless arses. They come and go and people still stick to the favoured 10 or so artists at the top of the genre because they are the few who can actually afford the kit needed to cut it among ever more pretentious and snobby DJ's.
The biggest issue that I have with hard techno at the minute is the "production, production, production" ethos that everyone's buying into. As a result there are plenty of producers with the technical ear for it knocking out tracks but neglecting to inject an idea or a theme.
Loop techno artists seem to think that only them get the concept of phasing in mixes. We all sussed that., That's why we like techno but a full set of it is piss boring and needs intricacy and anticipation to be entertaining. Something sadly lacking in hard techno at the minute.
Also the sooner this childish shranz fad is over the better too. you might as well just play hard house and run your decks through a guitar effects pedal. Shranz DJ's need to either admit they're gay or get laid. Repression is the only plausible explanation for this form of techno.
/rant
are dj tools killing techno???
not if they're used right.
i was just gonna mention him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Isaac
*in my best smokey the bear voice* -Quote:
Originally Posted by djshiva
"only techno-fools can prevent the killing of dj tools."
i don't agree with any of you!
techno is looped music in one form or another
and it's brilliant!
but more importantly music is only good in the hands of a musician
that musician can be a dj , or a traditional musician but a musician will be able to convey some emotion within what he / she does
which is what will always set some people aside from others.
and why a computer still can't write a song on it's own.
but
musical talent is all about hard work.
not your background ( although in my case it did help )
there are many musicians who came up against insurmountable odds to do what they do now and that story is as old as time.
so here's my point.
3/4 years ago everyone was becoming a dj and becoming opinionated on the subject of playing records.
once you start unfortunately you'll probably never hear a piece of music in the same way again...
you start to analyze it and count it and look for particular sounds or phrases
and as you become more practised at this art , you lose the ability to just kick back and listen to it.
( although with time and practice you can get it back...sort of )
now i think more recently due to the incredible amount of software that's cheaply available , the same thing is happening with production.
people are getting hold of software and programming tracks themselves and thinking " i want to get that noise like......." or " i need to learn about compression" etc etc
again they are losing their innocence in music which means
they are breaking music now into seperate instruments and sounds and structuring songs which suddenly gives them and opinion on not only their own work...but everybody elses too.
so whats happening now is that the amount of "producers" is rising
( drastically) which means that by rights the audience must be shrinking.
the ratio at a gig these days must be 1:50 people who play with music software when they have some spare time and probably more like 1:10 people in a (techno)club who do it quite seriously
that's a really high percentage of people compared to only 7/8 years ago! when virtually no one would have a clue how the music was made , and the equiptment was prohibitavely expensive
so now there's a problem:
too many cooks in the kitchen
for me music needs a certain balance of struggle and dedication to really get that hunger going and i'm convinced that it was that that got the whole electronic music scene started in the first place.
some of you guys may be too young to remember this but when i was young going to a studio really was just that....going to a studio
a purpose built room ,soundproofed with a mixing desk , effects , a room to record live instruments........ etc etc
not going round to your mates spare room.
( although it is amazing that you can do that now i agree)
i'm certainly NOT dissing any of the young producers in the world
( or on this board , many of them will blaze a trail quite brightly i think)
but we have to see that the simple availability of the tools to do the job of prodution is affecting how people actually grade and listen to music.
so if we all become musicians who do we play to?
familiarity breeds contempt
think about it