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which is more important ?
the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?
sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..
WHO F**KING CARES ????
ppl need to let go of the means & become interested in the ends..
screw pcs.. give everyone a 909 & S2000 see who can cook up a good tune..
can we please get back to makin summat to dance to & forget about who has the most vsti's please ?
the tune is most important. without a tune all you have is polished production ala westlife.
i been going thru lots of old old techno the last few months.. and some of it is sooo blistering & raw.. really urgent & you can hear the 909s about to cave in. thats all those guys had & they squeezed the f**k out of every last bit of kit they had.
now, its jus a d'load away & you can have all the tools, so ppl seem caught up in polish & shine & all that bo&&ocks & totally missing the point..
THE MUSIC!
maybe its jus me.. maybe i'm old, but all this 'theres a hole at blah blah frequency' is utter bulls**t. who cares if its a bit ropey.. really, given half the pa's ppl have to contend with.
go listen to 'My Definition of House' by Dj Hell. grim grim terrible sound. but what a tune. and what a hook.. i mean, its f**king lethal on any rig. but if that tune came out today, it would be s;ammed by everyone as 'amateur crap.. prob made on Reason... pffft' type s**t.
and yes, there is an argument about 'well, if it came out today, by todays standards it IS bad & therefore blah blah' but really, what does this achieve ? nothing. outdside of a few ppl elevating themselves & looking down noses, it is good for NOTHING!
ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..
i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?
i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...
and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?
i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.
can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?
Nope, old stuff was still produced well.
these kind of comments generally come from people who are frustrated at their level of production.
This is the truth ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
hate to burst your bubbles but.. its not actually about production, its about ppls attitude towards it..
and that type of comment is EXACTLY the type of thing i'm gettin at... thanx :lol:
of course the groove of the tune is important, and yeah, i've bought lots of records that are rough around the edges, but as a producer, why would you not want to get better at the art of producing ?
surely it's human nature to want to better yourself.
Yeah it's easy to get tied up in all of that, and then lose focus of actually writing a decent piece of music to accompany the polished sound, but surely the aim is to have both in a finished product.
dan, everything you say is correct, i'm talking about the criticisms levelled at producers.
and i aint talking bout me. ive done nowt since maybe december.. gettin married changed everything for me :)
i'm talkin bout ppl knocking work pureky on production basis. yes, we all want to be better, but a shiney finish aint everything.. imo ;)
i hear that, but i cant say i've ever seen or heard anybody slating a tune just for the production quality.
Constructive criticism is always needed
when you have access to so many plug ins, its very easy to try and polish a turd.... instead of giving up with a shit idea and coming up with something else...
Go on module, i know exactly where your coming from mate!
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by crime
No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.
I want you to quote me and show where I did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
I can`t see constructive critisism and actually taking time to analyse and offer suggestions to someone as anything other than good.
Any musician wants to be better, and the studio is the instrument of techno.
even the sex pistols were well produced.
Techno has got woefully bad levels of production these days, mainly do to the ease of access to technology and the "just mash loops together" simplicity in making average techno.
In any other scene, drum and bass, minimal etc I`ve ever looked at, the general level of critique is much higher, and people are really jumped on, so tend not to let their music out until it is of a higher standard.
It`s not hard to produce well, it merely takes patience and hard work and time spent. everybody wants something for nothing and an easy ride these days, a quick fix.
Anyone can make music these days, and sure the tune is THE most important part of the whole production. But a professional level of production lifts it above the increasing sea of average.
I don`t know any good artist who wouldn`t want to improve, and those that moan when confronted with critisism are generally those who think they have learned everything.
The main thing I have learned in production, is that, there is always more to learn, and more to strive for.
i agree totally. if it wasnt for constructive criticism from the likes of steve and others on here i would have releases lined up at the moment and i'm very grateful for that so i try to give back to this site and newer producers with some of my own constructive criticism BUT i do see where module is coming from...Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
i've noticed it myself in the production filez section (and probably been guilty of it) where a good tune made by someone without good production skills goes unnoticed but the bad production of it is put under the spotlight. maybe in future we should put a pros/cons reply?
techno (all) producers, by the very essence of our music, should want to better their skills but when it comes down to it the tune is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
*that shoulda read "wouldn't have releases lined up"
EDIT BUTTON PLEASE MARK!!!!!!!
Some tunes are made to be durty.
Some tunes are made to be fine.
The production behind both these tunes is of the same never-ending improvement.
But, yeah....some peeps do go too far in their analysing of a tune. There has been much bitchiness involved.
Competition...??
Clique...??
Dont worry about it, just keep going.
Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.
So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.
i think a good mixture of the both areas is needed, obviously the track has to be dance worthy, but it makes all the diffrence if it sounds good too!!Quote:
Originally Posted by module
good points from many peeps here, though i do think DB has made yet more smart arse comments that are of use to no one ;)
lol jus kidding DB.. i do see where all peeps are coming from, and maybe (again ffs) i havent totally explained my point.
ok.. try this one on ---> Jeff Mills is known for hi manic mixing style (regardless of accuracy of the mix) and there are ppl who actually dig that vibe.. the slightly out of synce mixes that although lacking in precision are bursting with enthusiasm. i myself appreciate a dj trying things.. throwing records in & out like stink.. and if they do make a mistake, its only cos they are pushin it sooo far. at times i feel the same about trax. some, imo, are too worked, too polished, to the point where the raw energy is drained out in an attempt to get every aspect perfect. take the hard hard techno of Amok etc.. some of it sounds too squeezed or thrown down real quick, but maybe thats their buzz... get the idea down real quick & keep the raw initial buzz as opposed to spending 3 months on eq'ing hats..
i aint bitter as DB insinuates. in fact, i accepted a long time ago that i would not make it as a producer.. and there are many reasons for that. none of which i will bore you with here lol
maybe its a 'forum thing' that has came about... but there does seeem to be a tendancy to home in on production level as opposed to the actual 'groove' or 'tune' thats been laid down. i could be wrong.. i dunno. its jus a thought & nothing more. so please ppl, dont take it as a stab at anyone or any thing, its jus a thought that comes back to me from time to time.
the post wasnt meant to incite or hate on anyone. jus a post.. a thought.. if it IS that futile or inciteful, then by all means mods, remove it.
i'm married now, and quite frankly, much much more interested in my wife & home than a bunch of opinionated techno geeks lol
jus kidding :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by SummerOfSam
i wasnt accusing any one person. i mentioned no names. i dont know why you believe this was about you, but rest assured, its not singling anyone out at all.
as for the 'schranz/techno' issue.. its in reference to the sticky.. like i said then, it wasnt to single you out SOS, it was jus an example. in truth, i find the attitude in the Dark/Dungeon forum waaay more righteous than anything.. some of the abuse handed out in there is downright sad.
i have friends who are big into their techno, much more than i am these days. we diagree, quite strongly,. on a lot of things, but its never ever got nasty. its jus life. i dont know why forums seem to carry so much weight, but thats the web for ya.
^^ excellent point jay. well made :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
i too live the family life.
quickest way put that sticky is there screaming
hey
I am an artist
and I make hard techno
and i will not let a schranz producer or group of come along
and redefine what i and many others here do.
A ****ing safe idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech
Remarks must be qualified though.
Quote:
the producers of yesteryear did know quite a bit about what they were doing.
I really like that pro's/con's idea too.
Gets you in a more constructive mindset, rather than just staying quiet, or comments like "too minimal for me, not my cup of tea" which are a pain in the arse if you are looking for feedback.
Oopps
They had to, there was no other way of doing things, not banks of presets, not hordes of loop CDs, expensive equipment. you couldnt buy it at the end of every month, end of 6months more like,,, so they got chance to KNOW their equipment, to understand it and its limits and benefits.
"when i were a lad!......"
Can't say I've ever seen anyone's stuff in the production forum get unhelpful reviews or plain abuse myself.
Whenever I've posted a track up I'm hoping people will comment on the production side of it, and I don't want to hear about the things I've done well so much as the things I've done badly - it's impossible to keep listening to your tune objectively and after the 2,000th listen to the same loop your ear just tunes out the shit bits. Someone else who knows what they're talking about to the point that they can pinpoint the frequencies that need cutting or sounds that are mushing into one another can say whatever they like about my tune, the more the better - that's the stuff I want to hear that I can use to actually make a better sound next time.
I don't really give a shit (well, I'll never complain :cheese:) if someone just pipes up with 'I like the groove'... and if I changed the "tune" every time someone said they didn't like it, I wouldn't be writing my own music - bollocks to that :)
btw, i aint talkin exclusively about BOA... or techno for that matter. there jus seems to me to be a general air of emphasis on the production over the tune. imo.
maybe its jus the ppl i hang with or forums i read, doesnt make it true, its jus what i see & hear these days & i find it.. i dont know.. a bit by the by or beside the actual point.
anyways.. cool to see good points & good feedback & ideas i hadnt considered. oh yeah, and 'gay' comments.. cos they really are best left to South Park lol
good stuff peeps :)
Good point man! True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
Prefer stuff that is raw as opposed to perfect.
Dj Rush (one of my favs for this reason).
to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.
If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.
And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.
[quote="dirty_bass"]If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.quote]
true.
beware your ego...
totally, it`s an ego blow to get critiqued, but better to get it in place place that is designed for it, then to get it as part of a demo rejection from a record label, who may well not bother listening to any further demo`s you send as they were unimpressed.
I'm indebted to this place for objective criticism.
Although its admittedly hard to take, when you spend months working on something you think is great, only to have it decimated.
But its the best way to learn. Painful, but you know you are making progress.
I listen to stuff I made a couple of years ago and wince at the quality of it.
Without someone else to explain to me why it sounded bad I might still think it was the shizzle.
Also
A track will be better if the artist is at a point where they are "on song".
Some know the feeling of when you "are on it" and stuff just flows.
At this point your creativity and production will be appropriate according to your knowledge and experience. Others will see/feel this in the track.
of course there are times when that track isnt what you want to listen to at the moment.
No amount of "polish" will make it otherwise. Timing is everything, perhaps?
I find that I will comment on the tracks content if I have listened to the artists work previously on numerous occaisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
dude.. seriously, its not about my stuff.. ive put up only one track in months now. and you actually said you quite liked it. most ppl did. and i wasnt expecting anyone to dig it tbh.
i'm not talking about me here. this isnt about my tunes. i havent done a thing since way last year.. the odd noodle, as was posted in the production files, but thats it.
i'm talking about the bigger picture. other ppl on other forums & how its almost a new culture.. this isnt a 'oh.. nobody likes my loops.. boo hoo' lol its jus a thought. but one i thought i could maybe get some new & fresh views on via BOA. i dont know why your coming at it the way you are. i hope this goes some way to explaning it further. seriously, this isnt an ego thing.. my ego was battered down along time ago via djing & partying too much.. i had my big fall waaay back believe me lol
and DB, it was jus a joke, not a dig. i dont mean ill.. was jus in jest.
tbh, ive never had a problem with anyone not liking anything ive done. its the manner in which ppl address certain issues, and it aint jus here. its ppl i know & lots of other forums.. the taste thing is subjective.. and gettin constructive comments is worth its weight in gold. not that ive done anything to get any feedback on lately.. its not gettin the flack, ive learned about that in bands since i was 12 & i got the thick sorta skin with music critique. its jus when ppl seem to get almost preachy & righteous.. yes, help. and be straight & to the point, but there is lil use in jus ripping on someone & trying to posture.
and this isnt aimed at anyone in particular. certainly not you DB. yes, at times you can be scathing, but thats your way. and you have the credentials to back up your word.
i maybe could/should have spent more time on the first post & said all this then, but i didnt. sorry.
was jus something i thought was worth throwing out there :)
but yeah, its a comment about production forums, not my experience. and some ppl have seen where im at with it.
this spreads far and wide though, go and have a read of hifi magazines to see how serious people are about listening to nice sounding music
If you're suggesting that prodcution is about 'split frequency of the high end' then id agree that the tune and groove are more important. What you said seems to be a mastering quibble however - which is afterall there job to polish something to stardom, so i'd say it's ok for them to debate which dither is better or 0.1db eq to increase etc. Techno producers usually say 'phatten your kick a bit more' or something similar which is a bit more relevant to a good techno tune dont you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by module
For me production is alot more than frequency issues . Personally the quality of a tune goes hand in hand with how good the tune is.
Considering that all a computer producer does is produce then you'd think they should get good at there trade. Now some may agree some may not, at the end of the day everyone has there own criteria for what makes something good or more important. No-ones opinion is more correct than someone elses, just different.
Who says I was talking about you in anything but the part directed at you?Quote:
Originally Posted by module
Really, I don`t see the problem.
As soon as you place your music somewhere that people can pass comment, you are bound to get totally negative stuff at some point.
It`s just something you have to accept and it kinda comes as aprt and parcel to the internet in general.
You can always put your stuff online in places like myspace, and turn comments off, if you don`t want any.
I mean, I see the point of this thread, kinda.
People in general do comment on production a lot.
Maybe it`s because everybody has a PC and thinks they can produce, so there is a lot of shite about?
Maybe it`s because production knowledge is more easily accessed, so more people know what they are on about.
Maybe it`s because some people are just buggers.
Maybe it`s because techno has some kind of expectation of being more involved, more forward thinking, and so people have higher expectations.
I don`t know. I only think that to be taken seriously, you have to work on a professional level in any part of the music biz.
fair enough DB. if ya dont agree or even see my point, thats fine. its jus comment on the state of things today.
i aint been makin anything or posting much, so i been looking at it from a much more removed angle & what i see is a lot of uncalled for bitchiness. again, not jus on this forum, but on many. and i hear it in the pub when ppl mention a new ep on Electrotoxic or the like.
anyhoo, its jus what i see & doesnt make it the defining truth or any such.
No, you are right, there is more bitchiness, if you want to call it that.
But what it boils down to is that people are more engaged in the music, have a deeper knowledge of it, and are more passionate about it.
So everyone is a critic.
I`m a qualified animator, and where most people would see somethin glike Toy Story and go "Wow the animation was amazing". I`d be all "yeah, it was ok, but there was a lot of short cuts, they repeated a lot of textures, blah blah". It`s not meant as a bitch, it`s more about a level of understanding.
too hi?....too low?.....the tune has to be a good tune to a good tune , who knows.... some people like certain styles, some people prefere other styles...if your not in to it dont bother slaggin it!!!! peace ;)
cool DB.
at the same time, there is a resource there that never was til the last clatter of years.. but i do feel there is a growing attitude of righteousness. and its not everyone, far from it. its a small % of forum users, but i do feel the nasty is growing.
one thing i done a lot was to state that things were very very rough first demo cuts. and that i was aware that levels were out, eq wasnt finished or kick needed work, but still some ppl (and no, not always here, on many other forums) would be quite harsh about the 'shitty bass line' or the 'gay synth' or 'embarassing hi hats' and theres been comments like 'the most boring shit i have ever heard.. give it up u wanker' lol its thos type of comments i see as useless..
i got my thick skin in bands & then djing before i even had a web connection.. as for the past of belfast i lived in AND being a metaller when i was young, ive got well used to abuse lol
the reason i put the thread up is because i KNOW ppl would disagree & maybe take it wrong & that it would spark such discussion. i aint posted a lot lately cos i aint had anything of worth to say, but i thought this might be a good topic.
and theres been some great posts :)
i can't believe comments like the ones you described were given on this forum :)
i think i know what you mean! criticism is ok if it is constructive and in the end we all know there are and have been loads and loads of records put out that are a waste of vinyl when comparing to lots of the stuff in the production filez. for every loopy piece of shite i upload (kidding..) i could name 10 other records/tracks that don't any better :lol:
the standards are just pretty high i reckon and i think that's good but nobody has the write to call a synth 'gay' or whatever - it's a matter of taste in the end... if the highs are over the top - ok? but ' embarassing' - how much of an art is balancing/eqing the highs supposed to be? i wouldn't care about insults, mate - you should know better :techno:
I have never seen comments like that on this board.
If there were I don't think I'd bother posting here.
Its friendly. Harsh at times, but always in a constructive way.