why are distributions keep going broke?

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

We need to make the kids realise that the rebellion, punk attitude and alternative standpoint they perceive to be a part of the rock genre, is an actual reality in the world and music of techno.

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wha da ? :roll:

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. ...

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Well actualy it does have an image.
If we go back to where it all started,
techno was created in a fantasy world.
It's everything that's not real yet.
Like Science fiction. It's the human link with virtual reality.
It's everything that has to do with the mind,
and all things that exceeds the boundaries of science,
and beyond....

This also explains the thing why techno doesn't have a definite form. Technology and science always develops. It's a matter of time and human evolvement.

Many kids are now in the hype of Playstation and computer games and all.
These things are created with the same intentions of how we want to create techno music.

So there is your image!

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. ...

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Well actualy it does have an image.
If we go back to where it all started,
techno was created in a fantasy world.
It's everything that's not real yet.
Like Science fiction. It's the human link with virtual reality.
It's everything that has to do with the mind,
and all things that exceeds the boundaries of science,
and beyond....

This also explains the thing why techno doesn't have a definite form. Technology and science always develops. It's a matter of time and human evolvement.

Many kids are now in the hype of Playstation and computer games and all.
These things are created with the same intentions of how we want to create techno music.

So there is your image!

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that was almost poetic :lol:

I think the point raised about the imagary of techno is very valid. Techno seems to have lost its way a little, lost its vision. Think of early Rhythm is Rhythm cover artwork and 313 compilations, URs Rings of Saturn and so on. It'd be good to get back to the visual side of things. Electro has a style and visual language but techno has forgotten its. I know things evolve and move on but the imaginative visuals of techno have been lost.

Another thing regarding the quality of the music thats out there, but probably not on topic >>

I'm always impressed by how supportive DnB heads are of new producers. Check out Dogs On Acids production boards, Spinwarp or google for DnB Production:

http://www.dogsonacid.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4
http://www.spinwarp.com/

There are discussions on arrangement, sound design and so on. Maybe it's because its a more popular style (??) but there's also more of a desire to help each other out and forward the scene as a whole. Every techno board out there has its own Production forum, but as a whole they're not up to the same standard.

i dont know. now a days, to me it seems techno is obcessed with being 'dark' and 'moody'.

dark and moody dont lure girls into parties.

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Originally Posted by Internal Error Records

dark and moody dont lure girls into parties.

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I like your use of the word 'lure' :twisted:

Dark 'n' moody might not but a great mood for weekly parties (esp when here in the UK most of our weather is dark n moody), but I like the dark n moody vibe. Think Bladerunner, Matrix, Dune and so on. HR Gigers stuff is good too. Its not going to get the furry bra Ibiza crowd though. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. ...

---

Well actualy it does have an image.
If we go back to where it all started,
techno was created in a fantasy world.
It's everything that's not real yet.
Like Science fiction. It's the human link with virtual reality.
It's everything that has to do with the mind,
and all things that exceeds the boundaries of science,
and beyond....

This also explains the thing why techno doesn't have a definite form. Technology and science always develops. It's a matter of time and human evolvement.

Many kids are now in the hype of Playstation and computer games and all.
These things are created with the same intentions of how we want to create techno music.

So there is your image!

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That is why we all like it, especially since we are already into the scene, but do u seriously think that will entice many more people to come? The image you described will keep them into the music once they understand, but dont forget many people can be simple minded and you still need something to hook them in.

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. ...

---

Well actualy it does have an image.
If we go back to where it all started,
techno was created in a fantasy world.
It's everything that's not real yet.
Like Science fiction. It's the human link with virtual reality.
It's everything that has to do with the mind,
and all things that exceeds the boundaries of science,
and beyond....

This also explains the thing why techno doesn't have a definite form. Technology and science always develops. It's a matter of time and human evolvement.

Many kids are now in the hype of Playstation and computer games and all.
These things are created with the same intentions of how we want to create techno music.

So there is your image!

---

That is why we all like it, especially since we are already into the scene, but do u seriously think that will entice many more people to come? The image you described will keep them into the music once they understand, but dont forget many people can be simple minded and you still need something to hook them in.

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No, that's why the computer games do have more succes then techno.
The kids see what's happening. It's like people lost the ability to use their fantasy.. And our job is to stimulate this need. We have to help the people to see why techno is interesting...

Like 'crbn' told: Artwork with a story inside is one way to boost it up a little bit. Or using computer generated movies, or even games. Simple things. And that way to make the connection with techno music, the producer 'has' to make something good.

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GothamGrooves.com

Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. ...

---

Well actualy it does have an image.
If we go back to where it all started,
techno was created in a fantasy world.
It's everything that's not real yet.
Like Science fiction. It's the human link with virtual reality.
It's everything that has to do with the mind,
and all things that exceeds the boundaries of science,
and beyond....


This also explains the thing why techno doesn't have a definite form. Technology and science always develops. It's a matter of time and human evolvement.

Many kids are now in the hype of Playstation and computer games and all.
These things are created with the same intentions of how we want to create techno music.

So there is your image!

---

That is why we all like it, especially since we are already into the scene, but do u seriously think that will entice many more people to come? The image you described will keep them into the music once they understand, but dont forget many people can be simple minded and you still need something to hook them in.

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No, that's why the computer games do have more succes then techno.
The kids see what's happening. It's like people lost the ability to use their fantasy.. And our job is to stimulate this need. We have to help the people to see why techno is interesting...

Like 'crbn' told: Artwork with a story inside is one way to boost it up a little bit. Or using computer generated movies, or even games. Simple things. And that way to make the connection with techno music, the producer 'has' to make something good.

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totally on that level man, i no exactly where you coming from, already i have plans in process on this. time will tell, . ;)

why then is it not possible for the distributors to sell records directly to the public thus meaning records will not be getting lost or sitting in record shops with no possability of getting sold eg a record shop selling underground records with no history of any proper sales of that genre.Plus there must be a way of doing this either putting shop services on distributors websites or distributing to the correct shops with good buyers of underground music

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Originally Posted by jimmy west

why then is it not possible for the distributors to sell records directly to the public thus meaning records will not be getting lost or sitting in record shops with no possability of getting sold eg a record shop selling underground records with no history of any proper sales of that genre.Plus there must be a way of doing this either putting shop services on distributors websites or distributing to the correct shops with good buyers of underground music

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What you describe is called "just in time"... The problem with it is that you cant make vinyl one at a time because it is too costly, so you have to make a run of a certain amount you think will sell. Secondly there already are websites that distributors sell too that you can buy vinyl from that sell directly to the people... As far as getting lost or stolen usually there is insurance that covers things like that. I really dont know the underlying cause of the problems on their end are? Maybe the industry is changing so fast and they were so set in their ways that they were not able to keep up with the new ways customers shop?

within legal terms,

Distro's sell wholesale to shops. Shops sell retail to Consumers.

There is more paperwork/tax stuff to do with retail.

A distro can theoretically get by with a few dozen clients while a shop would need hundreds, if not thousands or clients.

Many consumers arent even aware of many distro's existence.

Just industry talk.

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Originally Posted by Internal Error Records

Trains, PLanes, Boats, LIGHBULBS, are hundreds of years old.

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:clap: :clap: :clap:

a lot of vinyl lovers like vinyl because of the medium itself.
i doubt a cd dj would say they love the feel of a cd and they
love handing the medium itself. its just a means to playing
the music on them.. in which i think will die out in favour of
digital formats.. i would go digital before cd anyday.
and the vinyl lovers will still stay with vinyl because they
love the medium as well as the contents.

as far as mp3 goes i think mp3 is crap and is the next technology to die.
there are loads of lossless encoding techniques coming out :)

and with broadband connections getting bigger and bigger and
storage space getting more and more we should be able to download
and store every track as raw pcm's anyway

:lol:

mp3 is crap, but there is a lossless audio compression format available.

:lol:

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Originally Posted by Internal Error Records

within legal terms,

Distro's sell wholesale to shops. Shops sell retail to Consumers.

There is more paperwork/tax stuff to do with retail.

A distro can theoretically get by with a few dozen clients while a shop would need hundreds, if not thousands or clients.

Many consumers arent even aware of many distro's existence.

Just industry talk.

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theres no more paperwork in it, except vat which some shops sort out anyway, and i do see massive benefit selling to individuals. especially, and exactly becuase, when the market is so flooded with similair sounding releases, shops might only take single copies of each title and never restock on a majority.

speaking as a distributor, if some shops dont want to deal with you, in a reaction to a glut of similairity from techno in the market place and dwindling interest from the general public, but other individuals will place several hundred pound orders, and the mark up on individual sales is better for me AND cheaper for the customer, it can only work well.

KNOW YOUR DISTRIBUTORS KIDS ;) :lol: LOL

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Originally Posted by Milesy

as far as mp3 goes i think mp3 is crap and is the next technology to die.
there are loads of lossless encoding techniques coming out :)

and with broadband connections getting bigger and bigger and
storage space getting more and more we should be able to download
and store every track as raw pcm's anyway

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ok mp3 might be old, but its the most widely used format atm. from top of my head i can think of mp3, wma, ogg, atrac-3, flac, aac, mpc & monkeysaudio. these are already out, yet i dont see many people sharing these files online and those new digital players tend to only play the first 3 anyway. also wouldnt giving raw pcm's out just be same as selling original master tapes. high bootlegging maybe???

some really interesting points in this thread (even if it did take an age to trall thru some offtopicness! i really liked this post that ritzi lee found:

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Originally Posted by Paul Edge

Rethinking Music Distribution in an Global Online Marketplace

Ok...So you`re a label..You`ve got your product. You`re happy with it. The DJs are playing it, the dancefloor is dancing to it. Magazines are reviewing it favourably, your website is getting great hits, its getting Radio support, the message boards around the world are praising your release and your artists are getting booked out on the strength of the release. No problem, you`re set... Oh I forgot to mention one thing, you`re a dance label.

Now quite why Dance Labels differ from every other commercially available product out there still remains a mystery to many people, but apparently, the rules of economics, as defined by the economist Adam Smith, and rules that apply to every other business from porn to religious artifact sales, just do not apply to Dance Music. No one can explain why this is the case, no one can counter the argument that these basic economic rules apply to the DJs who play your records, to the promoters who throw events around your music and similar labels, to the magazines who sell their issues on DJ and music etc. But you`re a label, so what do you know?

If, and this is a big if, you are lucky enough (if you can call it lucky) to be deemed important enough to be picked up by a "distributor", you will logically think, hey, I`ll sell some records..I mean look at the actual facts about costs;

To press, promote, pay advances, office expenses we`ll allow 2500.00 GBP. So assuming you get 2.00 a record, you only have to sell 1250 units to break even. Lets break that down further. Assuming your artist is international and playing in the major countries; UK, USA, Germany, Holland, Austria, Australia, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Spain, Eastern Europe (I`m giving distributors a break here), Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Portugal.

1250 units / 17 Countries = 73.52 units per country.

Assuming that each event your artist plays has an average of 600 people in attendance to see him DJ/Perform that is a potential marketplace of 600 - 73.52.. So, the reality is that a minimum of 600 people will pay to see your artist perform, but 73 of them won`t buy his work..Try telling Eminem that of all the people who go to see him perform, one in seven people won`t buy his record.

Starting to get a little pissed off..You should be. As should every label out there.

Here are some of the excuses you will hear when you suddenly realise all your work and that of your artists have produced a paltry 1000 sales;

1) You`re an unknown label, so people don`t want to pick you up.

2) Dance music is suffering.

3) What DJs play isn`t what people want (yes I have heard this one too many times it ceased being ludicrous after the first time.)

4) Radio and press exposure doesn`t matter (Try telling this one to Sony)

5) Noone wants....(insert generic music term here)

6) Noone is buying records when they can download them for free.

7) My dog, bit my neighbours horse, who then talked, and he slagged off (insert generic music term) so noone wants it now...

Time to tear your hair out? Welcome to the bald label owner club, the quickest growing community in the world - no wonder all these DJs have shaved heads..

About this time you will also start to notice a worrying trend. Your artists will start bitching at you that wherever they play out at least 10 people ask them where can they get their records, as noone is carrying stock. Furthermore, the email will start coming from your website confirming this. Irate, you will phone up your distributor and ask him what is going on...He will respond with;

1) Shops only buy 1 or 2 copies...

Now far be it from me to point out the obvious, (but having worked in retail for 6 years), as a shop, if a product sells, you get as much stock as you possibly can...This is what shops rely on..Big selling products...Its how they make their money. Go to any retail outlet, ask the manager what their big sellers are, and they will point out shelves and shelves of the stuff..

So where do you go from here? Consumers want the product, but they aren`t getting it. As a result you have your staff, artists, bank manager etc on your back. Shops are bitching that they aren`t making any money so they are closing down. The clubbers and wannabee djs are moaning they can`t find any original music..There is only one common thread here, the middleman, the distributor. The technic 1210 for the last 10 years has outsold the guitar in retail sales. What are people playing on these? Pancakes...??.

For the last few years distributors have blamed everything from the gulf war to 911 as an excuse for not selling records..The reality is that record labels have allowed a bunch of untrained salesmen to sell their product and sold every label short. I will give you a personal example. When we released Metamorphosis Of Narcotics in 1996, it was rejected by every distributor known to man. Why, noone wanted trance apparently. What did we do, we hired a van and drove around Europe visiting every shop we could find with 4500 records in the back. We sold out within 3 weeks. 6 months later, Nitric licensed the track and ended up selling over 30,000 through the very same distributors who had rejected the record only 6 months earlier.

The sales process is a complicated thing. Every sales orientated industry spends thousands of pounds training their salesforce. They don`t allow their product to be sold by amateurs. They would go out of business. Ask your distributor what sales training their employees go through...I will guarantee you, that no distributor invests in the people that your livelihood relies on. You as a label don`t stand a chance in hell of succeeding..The law of averages states that put an infinite amount of monkeys in front of an infinite amount of computers, in time one will write war and peace. Of course the sheer talent out there will result in successful labels selling 4000 units, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the distributors.

Instead they make excuses, and more excuses, whilst driving surprisingly nice cars, being in surprisingly nice offices. Then again they make their money no matter how many the sell or don`t sell. They have no risk. They don`t need to sell 5000 units of your records, they just need to sell 5000 units..If it takes them 500 labels, they still make their money. Interesting point to note, compare your sales with the inhouse labels sales, when they do actually have some financial risk. You`ll probably get even angrier then.

So, you`re a label..What options do you have? Well you have to realise that in fact distributors are unnecessary. You have been blagged. Control of sales has to be assumed by the labels. Now this may seem somewhat daunting, and I understand why, being a label owner myself.

The benefits of controlling sales;

1) You control the market price

2) You get paid more money, bringing your break even point down.

3) You deal directly with the retailers, so you can see how the demand is going.

4) You control supply, and can divert it to where is necessary.

PHX Distribution - Rethinking Music Distribution in an Online Marketplace

Imagaine an global multilingual online community, all with their own personal state of the art personal flash websites. Imagine this community being based around dance music. Imagine being a label and being able to access this community, directly, with a 30 second flash movie promoting your product, with sound samples, straight onto their home pages. Imagine being able to sell your vinyl for 3.00, in either a digital/cd/vinyl medium. Imagine being able to deal directly with the shops, allowing them to hear your whole record online instead of hearing snippets down a telephone line? Imagine monthly generating valuable extra income through customisable cd sales. Imagine getting your money with 7 days of someone buying the record. And all this can be controlled from one central computer, eliminating 90% of all overheads for you as a business

The internet is becoming the most important marketplace for music distribution. The generation prepared to spend money online is now in a position to do so. The sociological changes that were always going to take 10 - 15 years to implement are now starting to happen.

Regards

Paul Edge
http://www.djpauledge.com

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:cool:

PHX Distribution - Rethinking Music Distribution in an Online Marketplace

a global (but only internet based) community could be the answer or at least a good start. im up for it!! is there a website out there which is doing this, if so we should all sign up and help them out, otherwise we should work together and create something. i suppose discogs has the biggest database at the moment. it would be cool, if this global resource allowed any user to add info on techno and even make a way for people to sell their own releases if they want.

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

I'm in need for (and maybe you to) a registration system where we can see:
- Who are the labels?
- What releases are planned in the next view months?
- Who are the distributions, and what do they have to offer?
- Who are the recordshops? What do they have to offer?
- Are all releases covered / filled in / homogeniously covered worldwide?

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another good idea, could tie these two together. so where do we take it from here?

many people have said techno vinyl sales are down, but at our shop total vinyl sales are up. maybe there's too many techno releases that sound alike, thru too many distributers. dirty bass raised a good point about bedroom producers, & if people are mixing digitally the vinyl itself serves no function other than a pain to rip to digital frmat - maybe people find it easier to download (legally or not). maybe more techno followers are needed, but i remember when a techno dj played on judge jules or fergie show and people were complaining, so maybe those same people dont want more people into techno...

also, it'd be nice to think anyone making money from producing music buys the software they use to make it. otherwise anotehr industry could be down the pothole.