music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

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Originally Posted by deafmosaic

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Originally Posted by oldbugger

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Originally Posted by deafmosaic

eyes, if you read what i said: UK and japan may have great connections, but the rest of the world? south america? south asia? africa? they have along way to go, it isnt an issue for ppl in usa japan canada etc, but that aint the whole world.


oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

see you accuse me of being arrogant but after talking down to me in the first place, thats called a HY-PO-CRITE, look it up analwart.

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:lol:

in the first place? **** me!. i think you forget how much shit you spout in the past so you don't even realise if you spoke down to anyone in the first place or not

you head is so far up your own arse to even realise your talking down to ppeople in the first place.

anyway.. off topic.

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dude i will explain one more time, you act like you know lots and talk like you are at the center of it all when you have F uck all to do with this biz, thats why we had problems in the first place. then you bait me and get pissed when you get bit!!!! pffffft

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haha.. ok, if thats what you think.

i certainly do not pretend to have anything to do with this biz apart from having an opinion on something i love on an internet forum.

and that isn't the reason we had the problem in the first place.
i got annoyed at your comments ages ago.,,***********
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deleted coz i dont want to carry on argueing with such a pathetic arsehole..

if you want to argue with me carry on.i wont reply to you on the tread again.

happy to tell you what i think in private but not on forum in full view.

your a legend :lol: i wish i had the right to have an opinion just like you :lol:

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Originally Posted by tocsin

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Originally Posted by DeafMosaic

oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in
this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

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Quick question. When did you come to consider your potential audience as not involved in the industry? They're just as much the industry as you are since, without them, you've got no choice but to share your music for free. See, those who don't run labels or produce are a big part of the industry, if not the biggest, and they have spoken loudly when it comes to digital music. The fact is, the market wants digital music moreso than vinyl. Now, whenever this issue comes up, I don't understand why people feel a need to act like it can only be one or the other. You can sell both MP3s and vinyl if you want. And, let's face it, even in your 2nd/3rd world "no broadband access" argument, techno records aren't exactly getting shipped in their easilly either. It becomes a luxury item or a gift by touring kids. Seriously, anyone fighting digital at this point is already left behind. And that's why you're seeing some of the tantrums. You're witnessing no shortage of artists who are feeling like someone just
walked over their grave. One of the things that got me into techno was the complete lack of rockstar bullshit. That seemed to change down the line somewhere. But, just as techno stuck up it's middlefinger at a lot of the rockstar bullshit in the past, you can expect a rude awakening if you think that element is going to come around and burn you at some point if you start acting the same. Who gives a **** about producers with attitudes when most people can download a ridiculously simplified version of Acid and be 100% happy with the output? Doesn't matter if people think it's crap either. It's just a way for such people to paint themselves into a corner of obscurity while the rest of the world does what it wants to do.

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bingo. and let's face it, embracing digital delivery has to start somewhere. it's only a matter of time before broadband is readily available among people all over the world who have the means and desire to buy electronic music. might take a while, but we'll get there.

http://tprc.org/papers/2003/268/broadbanddivide.htm

I'm going to kill you all.

whatever. this guy gets a big up hiss ass when i breathe wrong f uck it

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Originally Posted by massplanck

I'm going to kill you all.

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you already killed me. i'm posting from purgatory...

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Originally Posted by massplanck

I'm going to kill you all.

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don't be giving us that, we all know the nurse wont let you have sharpe objects anymore

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Originally Posted by eyeswithoutaface

Sunil i think what would of made it clearer is if the people's who say vinyl will be dead within a few years did a bit of research like yourself, because they'd come to the more clear and concise conclusion that Vinyl will become a medium that is not viable for the release of techno, thus rendering it void as a medium within the TECHNO scene. As a feverent buyer of music as a whole on vinyl, i totally see where your example was leading mate, and i personally am seeing more releases by bands and more mainstream artists appearing as vinyl releases, with the 7" single format quite popular at the moment

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Yeah, I guess there's kinda cross wires on the subject on vinyl in some ways: Is it vinyl within the techno market or vinyl within the music scene on a whole? I guess my thinking on the issue is that once vinyl is being manufactured and sold somewhere, then it exists, and is not dead. Once the option is still there, I can still see underground or techno labels pressing it. I guess as a label some people have higher expectations for sales etc. but many artists are still going to want to get a record out if given the choice. There will be a demand of some sort, and 'die-hard' labels (if that's what they'll be viewed as) that will still release records. Also things change, fashions change, maybe digital files won't be as appealing to the post I-Pod generation? Maybe techno will see a resurgence is popularity sales wise? I'm not sure that all the predicted changes in the vinyl/digital markets are going to be as swift and emphatic as some people are saying.

I was on a short trip to Berlin recently with students from the DJ class I tutor, and one of the days we went for a tour of Dub Plates mastering, where I briefly brought up the subject of "The Future Of Vinyl", and they honestly saw no danger, and that business was still good. Funnily enough the oil issue that some people are concerned with didn't seem to be a worry for them at all... more worrying to them was the prospect of a breakdown and having to acquire parts or components for their aging 1970's machinery, which are not manufactured anymore. He also mentioned a particular chemical (can't remember the name) that they may require for cutting the lacquer in the future.. a chemical which is apparantly outlawed in Germany.

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Originally Posted by eyeswithoutaface

from this thread i can easily make out 2 dividing camps.

One camp genuinely just doesnt care about making money on their music, they are grateful enough they have the talen, skills, resources and opportunities open to them to be releasing music, wether this is via the medium of vinyl or the digital domain. Any monie's due in are seen as a welcome bonus to this camp. The music is certainly without a doubt the main incentive in this camp. The other camp seem's to automatically assume they should be getting paid good whack for everything they do, regardless of sale's, the current market etc etc and whilst maintaining a solid love for the music, its quite clear that there is a greater love for making some money. Which is great if that's what you want, i couldnt care less. I know which camp im in!

People using the fact they have records out or quoting numbers of sale's as a defence in a debate are so misled its untrue, its quite apparent that pretty much any monkey can get a record released these days if they try, i even know people who have records due out who havent tried at all and its still happened, that's how easy it is

but

me, well, im interested in getting my MUSIC out there. That's the big difference. You have to decide wether you want to carry on putting out music, or carry on putting out records. If it's the latter, then really, just stop the constant moaning when someone puts it online or it doesnt sell well, because i think you'd have to be naive not to at least consider these happening anyway, so i think people need to stop acting like there the first person it's happened too

Jay is bang on. Too many link's in the chain

if it carrie's on like this, releasing will become such a minefield both morally and materialistically, that i think alot of people wont bother!

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that`s all a bit black and white really.
Expecting to get fairly paid for your work isn`t greedy.
I know that you Scot, send your stuff to loads of labels for release, and I know that if those labels dissapear, it will afect you directly.
Sure we need digital downloads for techno, our own place that everyone can go to that knows and specialises in digital techno etc.
But vinyl is still the main medium that gets played in the clubs etc.
When I see the attitude "oh **** surgeon/whoever", when talking about illegal downlaods etc, we are looking at a total lack of respect.

I don`t think many, me included, expect to get rich running a label, but as long as it pays for itself, then thats cool. However when people download and then use your stuff to play in ableton or whatever, with no permission, it is just disrespectful.

The fact is this scene is getting smaller, so why can`t we just support each other for ****s sake.
What`s wrong with that?
If we go the other way
the selfish way
then we are just as bad as the other shit eating commercial bollocks, but even worse, we are on a smaller scale, and feeding off each other.
There is no winner in this race, so we need to stop looking at things with the ME outlook.
We should all be helping each other cross the line together, or we will soon find out there is no race, just a bunch of selfish ****ers walking blindly down empty roads.

well u know me Steve, i didnt mean literaly its not right to expect to get fairly paid. but thats the main word. FAIRLY.

there's no denying that some people here expect they should be getting more than they do, or want too, and that was my point really

we've had many discussions on this and we both share the same view point, at the end of the day it needs to boil down to support, and unfortunately we are not getting that from those who we should be

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Originally Posted by deafmosaic

i love the idiot who says vinyl is overpriced!!!!! you know how much an artist makes for one of his own records?!?!?!

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Yes I do.

... and I still say vinyl is overpriced!

Coke is overpriced - doesn't stop proper cokeheads from sniffing it by the bagload week in week out. Likewise, vinyl is overpriced but I'm totally hooked on the stuff, and I'm a DJ so I guess that's my excuse.

All I was saying is that for someone who isn't a DJ, I think buying vinyls at £7 a pop is a bit of a stretch.

Cheers for the "idiot" comment though. ;)

techmouse, how dare you have an opinion! but be careful, massplanck is out killing everyone involved in this thread.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

All I was saying is that for someone who isn't a DJ, I think buying vinyls at £7 a pop is a bit of a stretch.

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But the people that buy techno or whatever records, more often than not are DJs or wannabe DJs. We've all served our time buying records, and we still do... it's basically just love and commitment for what you're into.

Anyway yeah, I agree, records are pricey, no doubt.

they're pricey in part because sales are so low. when i was the record buyer for a store in michigan back in the mid 90s, i quickly realized that we needed to sell 2 records to make up the loss for 1 unsold record. that is, we bought the import records wholesale for about $6.50, and sold them for $9.99. so the markup was $3.49.

a bad week would put us in the whole bigtime, and before i got there, the guy before me had had something like 10 bad weeks in a row...

Records are a bit pricey, but the price is set at the outlet, as the PRoducers and the distributers are still essentially gettting the same rate as for years.
I¬m surprised online outlets aren`t cheaper.
However, if anyone has a record shop and wants DB or Singularity direct, I`m willing to deal that way.

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Originally Posted by deafmosaic

left behind in all the shit? how many records do you have out? maybe you talk like that to your little friends but this aint your grandmas house there guy.



anyway are you saying that all music will be downloaded in the future and the physical medias will be lost? what a joke.


full quality, physical releases will never be in danger until the quality of downloads is better than mp3.



i love how folks insist on this, that or the other being "the future" when they have no biz in the industry in the first place.

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trackitdown are doin wav downloads now.
i agree though you cant beat a physical record... u feel like u get some value for money, unlike a mp3 file

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I don`t think many, me included, expect to get rich running a label, but as long as it pays for itself, then thats cool. However when people download and then use your stuff to play in ableton or whatever, with no permission, it is just disrespectful.

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:clap: so true

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

It`s a toss up really.
some people prefer to buy more than data, and it is nice to have some physical product in your hands, but at the same time you can`t ignore the ipod generation (although sometimes I do wanna slap those trendy fashion following white earphone wearing buggers).
What techno needs, as was just discussed, is our own online distribution network, not just all the other download sites, as they are a mash up and don`t recognise the cult/specialist following of techno, some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

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Out of all this huge thread...this is the word. Perfect idea I reckon. Most existing sites have too much stuff and most of the techno is no where near techno.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

It`s a toss up really.
some people prefer to buy more than data, and it is nice to have some physical product in your hands, but at the same time you can`t ignore the ipod generation (although sometimes I do wanna slap those trendy fashion following white earphone wearing buggers).
What techno needs, as was just discussed, is our own online distribution network, not just all the other download sites, as they are a mash up and don`t recognise the cult/specialist following of techno, some kind of online mp3/wav pay portal that represents techno.

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love the idea of people setting up their own distribution on a digital scale. i have been trying to convince some friends with labels to have direct digital downloads available for sale from their label sites.

and as far as the physical medium is concerned, i love my records well and truly, but i can honestly say that, having moved multiple times, i would be happy to never have to move crates and crates of records ever again in my life. vinyl will live on, but if i can get good digital files for a good price, i will do that ALSO.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

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Originally Posted by DeafMosaic

oldbugger: no dumbass i just talk down to ppl who talk like they know everything when they are about as involved in
this industry as a george w bush is involved in the peace process.

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Quick question. When did you come to consider your potential audience as not involved in the industry? They're just as much the industry as you are since, without them, you've got no choice but to share your music for free. See, those who don't run labels or produce are a big part of the industry, if not the biggest, and they have spoken loudly when it comes to digital music. The fact is, the market wants digital music moreso than vinyl. Now, whenever this issue comes up, I don't understand why people feel a need to act like it can only be one or the other. You can sell both MP3s and vinyl if you want. And, let's face it, even in your 2nd/3rd world "no broadband access" argument, techno records aren't exactly getting shipped in their easilly either. It becomes a luxury item or a gift by touring kids. Seriously, anyone fighting digital at this point is already left behind. And that's why you're seeing some of the tantrums. You're witnessing no shortage of artists who are feeling like someone just
walked over their grave. One of the things that got me into techno was the complete lack of rockstar bullshit. That seemed to change down the line somewhere. But, just as techno stuck up it's middlefinger at a lot of the rockstar bullshit in the past, you can expect a rude awakening if you think that element is going to come around and burn you at some point if you start acting the same. Who gives a **** about producers with attitudes when most people can download a ridiculously simplified version of Acid and be 100% happy with the output? Doesn't matter if people think it's crap either. It's just a way for such people to paint themselves into a corner of obscurity while the rest of the world does what it wants to do.

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this is the point that i have been making for some time. the marketing of techno on vinyl was ALWAYS marketed mainly to DJs. but djs are not the only people who listen to techno. therefore we painted ourselves into a corner by releasing on a medium strictly catering to djs. we built a closed loop that is effectively killing itself off in many ways.

why can we not do both? limited runs of vinyl for the DJs and digital releases for digital-based djs AND punters. you have now effectively DOUBLED your market. those who want the joy of breaking the plastic on a new 12" are happy, and those who have never touched a turntable get to rock the new tunes in their car/iPod/workplace CD player.

sure there will be people who download stuff for free, but again we tread the oft proven equation that if people can get high quality downloads for a reasonable price, they will. so let's make it available, cut out the middleman for those who want to buy the downloads, and give artists the ability to expand their market and their profit.

this is not really something that NEEDS to be debated. the reality of it is right in front of us, and we just keep kicking and screaming as we are dragged into the abyss of the very technology that we hyped for years in the very name of the genre we all know and love.

ah, the irony...

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

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Originally Posted by massplanck

I'm going to kill you all.

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you already killed me. i'm posting from purgatory...

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Oh dear.

Sorry to hear that.. where should i send the flowers?