Sven Wittekind - Serious Bitch EP - Tool Terror Records #1

Steve's explained it well enough there

of course its lazy production to just make a record thats meant to be mixed with something else, its like saying "im going to make u a cake to eat, but itl taste like shit until u sprinkle some sugar on top"... whats the point, why not just put the sugar on in the first place... i.e why not just make more effort and produce some hard techno that does, and should, stand on its own even just played end to end

how can u say mills music is music made to stand side by side? he's made absolute stand alone classics such as the bells, step to enchantment, changes of life, Skin deep etc etc... Beyer more so has done the loopy stuff and is more akin to say 3 deck mixing but again, they are still records u cud play at home end to end and still appreciate just as much

this one has been done before, and how people cant see the laziness in saying "oh its meant to be played with something over the top" then that really is beyond me ;)

might i add there's nothing wrong with loopy, as long as its done well!

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

of course its lazy production to just make a record thats meant to be mixed with something else, its like saying "im going to make u a cake to eat, but itl taste like shit until u sprinkle some sugar on top"... whats the point, why not just put the sugar on in the first place

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Like alot of the loopy, tribal stuff which dominated the techno scene for so long ( and still does in some clubs ). These tracks are made for mixing and i'm sure the vast majoiryt of people on this forum have bought it at one time or another

Some people like to put there own suger on tho Scott.
The reason you fail to see "how people cant see the laziness in saying "oh its meant to be played with something over the top" Is possibly because you personaly are not moved by such a thing ;)

But im one of the people who can listen to the same loop for 10 mins and not get board.

Infact what does bore me is somone who lets the records do the work for them and can onley see a record as a a tune to be played before they blend the next tune in I prefer to see sombody messing about with music rather than just playing it.

And on the subject of mills I would say he is one of the pioneers of techno that was meant to be played side by side with other music.

like you said this has been coverd before but so has slagging off distorted hard techno and most other disscusions on this board it doesnt mean the topic is over does it?

yeah of course its there, no said it wasnt, that stuff is there in every genre and i can honestly say ive never bought a record thinking "oh its ok but once i mix it with such and such itl b great", if a record isnt good enough to just be able to drop in a club on its own without having 1 or 2 more records playing underneath/over the top of it then i personally wouldnt be interested in it thats all im saying,

i have friends who lap the whole "made for mixing" thing up and i say the same to them

do u have to play the latest Wunsch offering with 2 of his other records underneath to have the club kicking off? or the latest Ruskin, Itoh, Mulero record in this manner?

no.... ;)

im bored by djs who let the records play out too, which is where creative djing comes into play, the records dont have to be loopy and hard to give enough room for trickery et al.... please dont think im just someone who lets a record play and doesnt actually believe in working out which records go together well and compliment each other, my dj style is very cut up based and there is always something going on in my sets and ud b hard pressed to find me just playing a record out and waiting to mix the next one in....

in this day and age, and techno's current state, its the producers who should be striving to make sure the records have the desired effect, not the Dj... someone said to me once a dj is only as good as the records he/she is playing and i thought "****, thats quite true"... even the hottest dj around wont rock it if the records are, for want of a better word, shite......

re mills, if its one thing his music does its stand alone, and knowing mills' mindset and way of thinking, the implication that he made his music so it was supposed to be played with something else wud probably offend the guy haha, he may not be now but at the time he was as forward thinking as it gets and tracks like "Life Cycle" and "The Extremist" are bona fide pieces of music, not just loop tools man....

ive actually enjoyed this whole thread/discussion quite alot i must say haha :)

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

do u have to play the latest Wunsch offering with 2 of his other records underneath to have the club kicking off? or the latest Ruskin, Itoh, Mulero record in this manner?

no.... ;)

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It all depends on the crowd and what they want, that's what's important for me aswell as my own gratification. My taste in techno does not range on the typical Spanish style you quoted but you wouldn't know seeing as you've never heard me play out ;) I don't stick to formulas or styles when I play out, I like to play whatever takes my fancy OVER tracks by Wunsch, Mulero etc etc :roll:

Come down to darkside next week Scott for the Atkins/Lekebusch night, it'd be nice to see you :cool:

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

do u have to play the latest Wunsch offering with 2 of his other records underneath to have the club kicking off? or the latest Ruskin, Itoh, Mulero record in this manner?

no.... ;)

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Your wright mate you dont but its nice to build up to that sort of stuff somtimes.

I just dont think that becuause a stand alone track is good that a non stand alone track is pish or lazy.

I agree with most you say and its good that you wont stand for shit techno but to say that a good record should be able to stand on its own is wrong to me,a good record is a good record no matter what it does

We'r off the original subject a little now arnt we oops ;)

i wasnt making any personal reference to ur style dude i was just serving up a few examples of who, to me, make proper hard, dark techno... the point im making is yeah u can put stuff over to make it more interesting, but do u NEED to? no.... thats the point i was getting at, and its how records should be getting made these days imo...

ive been buying up alot more older records simply because they, to me, have more effect and shelf life than alot of the stuff thats coming up these days and i dont mean just in schranz but in general...

re darkside sorry dude im playing the Voodoo afterparty so a trip to Leeds is out the question, im hoping to do Locked the night before but thats lookin less likely now too... by the way cud u tell Jorge i dont have that phone anymore so cud he email me for my address to send some cd's down

;)

But im one of the people who can listen to the same loop for 10 mins and not get board

thats just the point, ive heard loop tracks that have blown my head off and ive had the same loop on for hours literaly at times, but it really just has to be done well!!! there is lazy loop production, and non-lazy.... the original subject was tool terror 1 and come on i think nearly everyones in agreement by now that that is the laziness i speak of

haha copied the wrong quote there shud of been the....

I just dont think that becuause a stand alone track is good that a non stand alone track is pish or lazy.

but still same reply haha ;)

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

by the way cud u tell Jorge i dont have that phone anymore so cud he email me for my address to send some cd's down

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I believe he's in Spain and maybe for good. I've been away for a few weeks and haven't spoken to him for a while but when I do I'll let him know.

With regards to production, off the top of my head I could name several producers who are very succesful which could be classed as lazy but naming names is a rather pointless act but lets say that all genres of music are guilty of this.

yeah totally, ive never once said otherwise, i cud list lazy techno producers all day, just as easy as i could name lazy house, lazy electro producers etc etc... i tend to judge most music i hear on their production values as well as general audible properties, its just a habit and im sure anyone else who produces seriously has noticed themselves picking tracks apart in their head etc without noticing it... its annoying but helps give a better grasp of, well in a technical sense, what is a lazy production and whats not....

ahh i knew Jorge was going to spain but for good? shame if so, he's a good bloke i met him at Voodoo a few weeks back really nice guy

Aye Jorge is a sound bloke and a good dj, he's a bit hard to understand when you're pi5sed but after 5 years you learn to nod in the right places :lol:

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

re mills, if its one thing his music does its stand alone, and knowing mills' mindset and way of thinking, the implication that he made his music so it was supposed to be played with something else wud probably offend the guy....

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erm, purpose maker anybody?????????????

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Originally Posted by darkside

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

re mills, if its one thing his music does its stand alone, and knowing mills' mindset and way of thinking, the implication that he made his music so it was supposed to be played with something else wud probably offend the guy....

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erm, purpose maker anybody?????????????

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exactly was that not the concept behind Pupose maker?

thats irrelevant when its comes to peoples opinions, the examples i gave tracks such as "The Bells" "Changes of Life" "Step to Enchantment" etc are absolute classics and even tho its only my opinion, i think its a widely regarded opinion that these tracks certainly do not lack anything when played on their own, unlike the release in this topic heading....

come on if no one has any more opinions on the actual thread then whats the point in replying to "ohh what about purpose maker"..... some people just wanna flame things up still without something constructive to add to the debate....

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

come on if no one has any more opinions on the actual thread then whats the point in replying to "ohh what about purpose maker"..... some people just wanna flame things up still without something constructive to add to the debate....

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i replied in response to your remarks about "lazy producers" which were all the more hilarious when you came out with this comment.....

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

mills, if its one thing his music does its stand alone, and knowing mills' mindset and way of thinking, the implication that he made his music so it was supposed to be played with something else wud probably offend the guy haha...

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how do you know mills' mindset? you obviously know very little about the guy seeing as he was pretty much the first to utilise locked grooves & minimal loop trax (made for mixing with other records :shock: ) in his sets and on his labels.

this kind of puts a spanner in your whole argument about the schranz tune originally discussed.
a record that was made for mixing but you dismissed it as being lazy..

i'm no fan of schranz by any means and i don't like the tool terror record but this argument is just plain daft.

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Steve's explained it well enough there
of course its lazy production to just make a record thats meant to be mixed with something else, its like saying "im
going to make u a cake to eat, but itl taste like shit until u sprinkle some sugar on top"... whats the point

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First off, I find the concept of lazy production in techno highly amusing. What isn't "lazy production?" We all sit behind machines and push buttons, often without any thought further than "I wonder what it will sound like if I try this?" Regardless, what you mention is all perspective. Ever taste pure unsweetenen chocolate? It's bitter. Add some sugar, everyone loves it. Throw some peanutbutter on it, more people love it. All this talk about music that sounds the same also seems ridiculous to me as you can say that about any style of techno if it's not your thing. If you're into it, you'll hear the differences. If not, you won't care and you'll get bored. Once discussion of techno music turns into a critique of production quality/technique, in most cases, Elvis has left the building.

no ones saying its not daft, i agree it is daft, but again, and il put it in capitals just in case u miss it

OPINIONS WERE WANTED. OPINIONS WERE GIVEN. SOME OPINIONS DIDNT MATCH WITH THE "OOOOHH WE SHUD ALL KISS EACH OTHERS ARSE" MENTALITY THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE ON HERE SEEM TO ADHERE/REQUIRE IN ORDER FOR A NICE HAPPY FORUM. A DEBATE TOOK PLACE.

its that simple... re my comments on mills, i was basing my opinion on the occasions ive met Mills and the image that i have of him personally.... i dont particulary care who was the first to make loop tracks, locked grooves etc... in fact il stick my neck out and say i DONT GIVE A SHIT who invented/started either.... fact is... it can be done well, or not... in the tool terror case it was most definately, undeniably not.... the whole "these tracks were made to be mixed with others specifically i.e a tool" just doesnt wash with me personally and i never view any tracks like that, even the stuff i have on purpose maker... they are just records that someone has done in my eyes nothing more, nothing less... most electronic records are made with the view of being mixed so when someone says "ohhh its meant to be a loop, its just to mix with" then 90% of the time for me personally it means "oh i couldnt be arsed actually making something with a bit of personality and my own artistic presence".... not the case with Mills for me because to me its just good music, plain and simple

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

OPINIONS WERE WANTED. OPINIONS WERE GIVEN. SOME OPINIONS DIDNT MATCH WITH THE "OOOOHH WE SHUD ALL KISS EACH OTHERS ARSE" MENTALITY THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE ON HERE SEEM TO ADHERE/REQUIRE IN ORDER FOR A NICE HAPPY FORUM. A DEBATE TOOK PLACE.

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agree with that totally :)

but this totally contradicts itself...

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

.... the whole "these tracks were made to be mixed with others specifically i.e a tool" just doesnt wash with me personally and i never view any tracks like that, even the stuff i have on purpose maker...

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but that IS why purpose maker records were made. granted they spawned a million shit copyists but that's not the point.

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

they are just records that someone has done in my eyes nothing more, nothing less... most electronic records are made with the view of being mixed so when someone says "ohhh its meant to be a loop, its just to mix with" then 90% of the time for me personally it means "oh i couldnt be arsed actually making something with a bit of personality and my own artistic presence".... not the case with Mills for me because to me its just good music, plain and simple

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on one hand you're calling people shit for making loop records to mix with and on the other you're praising jeff mills. :eh:

ur totally missing my ppint here paul unfortunately.... im speaking from a personal point of view, the fact that purpose maker was made specifically to put out mix tools/loops really is irrelevant to me, il openly admit that i didnt know that was the labels original purpose, and again il be honest i couldnt care less if id never known... it wudnt change my personal feelings/views on the records... they are simply just records i deem as good and wish to play, the fact that they are on a label specifically set up for loops is a mere coincidence, well thats probably not the right word to use as the label was started when i was still in school haha but u get my point surely.....

ive never called people who make loops shit, not in the general sense from which ur describing it, ive got loop records here that blow my head off (no puns please) and will continue to do so for years... but bad tools, no, honestly, i just dont see the point in them at all... if somethings worth doing its worth doing well and this tool terror thing really wasnt... the thing that got me most was the fact that a whole new label was started for such tools, sven has numerous labels i believe already, and in general techno has farrrr too many labels now so any new ones really shud be pushing things more, and certainly not coming up with debut releases of that calibre

all techno is meant to be mixed.
So to say "oh, I meant this record to be mixed" is just a cop out.
Some producers don`t really have that much musical knowledge and talent, and they use the "oh it`s for DJ`s" argument, to justify the lack of ideas.

Lets face it, your average techno loop track can be knocked together in a couple of hours.
So to put in the extra work to make it a bit different, or a bit more interesting, isn`t some huge task.

Lazy production indeed.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

all techno is meant to be mixed.

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no it's not

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

So to say "oh, I meant this record to be mixed" is just a cop out.

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no it's not.

exactly....

its just music to me, good or bad, pretty simple..... the word "tool" is such a horrible word to describe something that should be full of the very essence of the person who made it... a bit deep yes but in production it is ur personal thoughts and views that mould ur music... this just sounds so cold, unoriginal and pretty devoid of anything close to emotion

anyways, a good debate still haha i do enjoy it all i must say lol

god that sounds ****in sad haha :lol:

yes it is ;)

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

blah blah blah...

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:lol:

i think we should just agree to disagree then although that tool terror is a bit poor, i agree with that bit.

again, missed point... i love viewing peoples opinions and havent said anything against that... it was the fact that id already explained mine several times in the thread and was a bit tired of typing it out again, so caps it was...

again tho, that bits over with so lets move on, which we were just about to i think....

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no ones saying its not daft, i agree it is daft, but again, and il put it in capitals just in case u miss it
OPINIONS WERE WANTED. OPINIONS WERE GIVEN. SOME OPINIONS DIDNT MATCH WITH THE "OOOOHH WE SHUD ALL KISS EACH OTHERS
ARSE" MENTALITY THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE ON HERE SEEM TO ADHERE/REQUIRE IN ORDER FOR A NICE HAPPY FORUM. A DEBATE TOOK
PLACE.

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Dude, if you're going to post your opinion, you don't need to get huffy and respond in all caps when people post their's. Nobody's asking for an ass kissing session. I'll still chuckle at the idea that one loop record is better than another. Whether it's Mills or some kid from Europe, it wouldn't be my thing. But, given that people do and have made records specifically empty for DJ mixing purposes, I don't see how the "good track stands out on it's own" logic would apply to a record that is more or less advertised as a stripped down DJ "tool." If someone asked for your opinion on a Gremlin, would you criticize it for not being a Ferrari? If someone did a pencil sketch, would you criticize it for not being oil on canvas? You could always make the statement that the sketch artist was just lazy for not going the route of creating a beautiful full color oil canvas painting. But, that ignores the very real fact that the artist just may have wanted to draw something rather simplistic with a pencil.

what happened there??? i posted that as a reply but its swapped things round now but it should make sense still... haha...

haha yeah Paul thats a good halfway house as it were, we'l just agree that this is a bad record :lol: ;)

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Originally Posted by tocsin

If someone asked for your opinion on a Gremlin, would you criticize it for not being a Ferrari? If someone did a pencil sketch, would you criticize it for not being oil on canvas? You could always make the statement that the sketch artist was just lazy for not going the route of creating a beautiful full color oil canvas painting. But, that ignores the very real fact that the artist just may have wanted to draw something rather simplistic with a pencil.

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you are jeff mills and i claim my limited edition axis willy warmer.

hahahahaha

they have willy warmers too?

neat, if ur into that sort of thing ;)

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

hahahahaha

they have willy warmers too?

neat, if ur into that sort of thing ;)

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yeah but not your size, the americans never do size small.

i remember falling for an april fools via ideal distribution years ago.
they listed some axis toothbrushes in their mailout.

guess who ordered some :oops:

haha really? lol

hilarious.... hahahaha

im sure others did too tho lol

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Originally Posted by darkside

i remember falling for an april fools via ideal distribution years ago.
they listed some axis toothbrushes in their mailout.

guess who ordered some :oops:

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HAHAHA !!!!! Classic :clap:

that explains the piece of cabbage that's been stuck in your teeth then :lol:

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Originally Posted by Stella Boy

that explains the piece of cabbage that's been stuck in your teeth then :lol:

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that's not cabbage. ask your lass...

I got a roasting off your lass last time this sh1t was discussed so don't go there :dontevengothere:

it was a good spitroast though

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Originally Posted by darkside

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

all techno is meant to be mixed.

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no it's not

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

So to say "oh, I meant this record to be mixed" is just a cop out.

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no it's not.

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Ok, if we are going down the pedantic road.
MOST techno that gets discussed on this forum, is meant to be mixed.
ie 4x4 stuff.
There IS plenty of techno that is just knocked out in a few hours, and is purely loops processed of of loop CD`s.
It sucks, it`s lazy, and in my opinion, no better than the latest churned out cover by a boy band. Except the churned out cover by a boy band will have better production.

westlife make me proud to be Irish!!! :oops:


and the whiskey :cry:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Ok, if we are going down the pedantic road.
MOST techno that gets discussed on this forum, is meant to be mixed.
ie 4x4 stuff.
There IS plenty of techno that is just knocked out in a few hours, and is purely loops processed of of loop CD`s.
It sucks, it`s lazy, and in my opinion, no better than the latest churned out cover by a boy band. Except the churned out cover by a boy band will have better production.

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nothing pedantic at all. you said ALL techno is made to be mixed which is total rubbish. i pulled you on it and now you've changed it to MOST techno that's discussed on this small forum...

i totally agree there's ****ing loads of techno banged out in a few hours made for mixing and you're right, alot of it sucks. but that's not what you said and there's a big difference.

Where do your opinions come from anyways, Dirty_Bass. You make factual assertions but do you have anything other than a gut feeling to back them up? How do you know one of the most boring loops you've ever heard only took a few hours to make? What's the relevance? If it sounds good, but only took a few hours to make, it's less glamorous? I just find this attitude to be snooty. It's like that dumb rocker attitude I referenced in another thread. See, it would be one thing if people just said they didn't like something. It's when trash-talking is passed off as fact, like you were there looking over the shoulder of a producer as they wrote the thing, that it feels more like a personal grudge. I'd honestly rather just hear someone say they think the music sucks at that point rather than bring up unfounded pseudo-facts to make it look like their is more to their opinion.

On a side note, the name of this label might be the most amusing one I've come across in awhile.

oh **** off.

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Originally Posted by Adverse

oh **** off.

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sorry but i have to 2nd that :lol:

Ok, my bad.
Loopy, lazilly produced techno loops are great.
And not at all the techno version of a boy band churning out drivel after drivel.

Yay, endless loops forever :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

listen...fellas...loop-based techno can be fantastic...i'm sure everyone on this forum agrees with that...if we didn't, we'd be on an IDM forum or somewhere else...

i think what dirty_bass is trying to say is that a lot of producers don't push themselves. they can write decent-sounding loops very easily, and this leads them to rest on their laurels, and keep releasing decent but unchallenging loop records. this also isn't just 1 or 2 guys, it's a lot of guys, including many of the biggest and most respected producers. and it isn't just 1 or 2 records, it's the bulk majority of them.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Ok, my bad.
Loopy, lazilly produced techno loops are great.
And not at all the techno version of a boy band churning out drivel after drivel.

Yay, endless loops forever :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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No need to go the opposite extreme now. Just try answering the question instead. How do you know how much effort was put into the record? It gets old hearing this crap especially since you're own of the people who has brought up this "no negativity" stance before. Making unfounded statements to back up an opinion, in the end, is just trash talking. I've got more respect for someone who is just willing to admit they think something sucks at that point.

IT`s easy to hear.
I`ve heard plenty of techno tracks (I`m not refferring to wittekind here) that are just a collection of loops from various commercial techno loops CDs
No real thought there. If you honestly can`t see that in a lot of the loop techno that has been churned out over the last five years, then you must be deaf.

just the last 5? ;)

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

IT`s easy to hear.
I`ve heard plenty of techno tracks (I`m not refferring to wittekind here) that are just a collection of loops from various commercial techno loops CDs
No real thought there. If you honestly can`t see that in a lot of the loop techno that has been churned out over the last five years, then you must be deaf.

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I don't own many loop CDs so I wouldn't know. As a consumer who doesn't like wasting time or cash on what I find boring, I don't listen to loopy music, hard techno, "techno" and a number of the genres that are probably most popular here. But, I'm not about to sit back and accuse producers of rushing work through using pre-made loops unless I could specifically trainspot those loops.

Well, I`m not gonna name any names, as I`m not gonna start a shit storm by pointing fingers. But it happens.
Even worse is when techno people sample other techno records and steal each others beats. That`s sooo wrong.
Like a washing machine screwing itself