TrueQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunil
But I still would not concede he bore hard techno
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TrueQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunil
But I still would not concede he bore hard techno
well ive heard alot of Beltram but again, i dont see where the hard techno tag is coming from.... to me its just Beltram, plain and simple, and i would think there are alot more european based producers who've had more of a hand in shaping the hard techno sound we know today, im not saying i know of them because the history of hard techno is not something that im fussed about, im just saying im sure there were others doing more for the harder sound than JB......
for the record i think location and the music one produces, for me personally anyway, bare no relation to each other... u make what u make, regardless of location... sure friends and ur location influence ur work but for me it doesnt have a hold on what actually comes out of the speakers...
How do you know it’s not due to your social background, your friends, etc that you got into techno in the 1st place? Perhaps had we all be been born somewhere else, brought up in different circumstances then none of it would have ever happened. If we all look externally for influence and location could play a huge part in the identity of your sound or the style of music your intoQuote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
Well perhaps?
In relation to Beltram, I wouldn't agree that he is the sole creator of hard techno either but lets be fair, he has been influential in many ways. He's made tonnes of hard techno, many of them classics. I think it's the fact that he had a different kind of energy and funk to everyone else somehow makes people disassociate him with hard techno or say that it's just the "Beltram sound".. whatever way you look at it though, A LOT of it was hard techno.
And as for hardcore, come on? He was a big name on the hardcore scene.
In terms of European hard techno producers shaping today's sound then sure, that's the way it has gone in many respects. We're going back a bit in time here though, when your Surgeons/Beyers/Liebings hadn't even started out. There's few pioneering or well known hard techno producers of the last number of years that wouldn't have a fond Beltram memory or indeed have been influenced in some way.. it's virtually impossible.
Listen to Game Form by Beltram on Tresor records...I think its Tresor #033.. or something like that... so one of the earlier ones...
this tune is way different than Energy Flash..Its like that Hard banging, almost owerwhelming sound...so perhaps a more clear association will emerge... Dunno... I can't say one way or the other what's what with Beltram and modern Hard Techno... But if I had to place a bet...I would say weather directly or indirectly...he had a huge influence
Not my area of expertise though..
come on, im not clueless u know guys, i have actually hard Game Form :roll:.... il admit im unaware of Beltrams involvement with hardcore, i did note that im not big on the history, they are questions in my posts, not statements....
i know how i got into techno danny, i went to a club called Voodoo nearly 7 years ago with my mates.... its that simple... sure if i had been brought up in the outer reaches of Mongolia, there is a good, well lets say above average, chance that i wouldnt even know what techno was, but thats irrelevant.... my comment meant literaly, it shouldnt, and doesnt for me personally, matter where u come from, u really do make what u make... id hate to be someone like Surgeon or Regis who are just instantly labelled "Birmingham techno"... or anyone who does schranz makes "german techno" etc etc ...
that should read "heard"
Yep, I know plenty of people who make techno who wouldn`t know a any beltram records, nor pull any influence from them.
Me neither.
Musical inflence is way too diverse to pin it down to one person.
ok but say you didnt come from the same background, didnt take drugs, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
It might not have happened, your tastes mite have been different, what makes you tick would be/could be different.
Funny you should say that about Mongolia, I always thought you was a bit of a Mongol
:lol:
Fair enough, although in the bigger scheme of things Beltram has been as influential a figure within techno as you can get..Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Someone making techno that doesn't know any Beltram records? Come on, what rock have they been living under? They don't have to be influenced by him, and i'll take your word that they aren't... but jesus christ, anyone into techno needs to know some Beltram records.. he's one of the kings for **** sake :!: :clap:
Fair enough, although in the bigger scheme of things Beltram has been as influential a figure within techno as you can get
hmmm... very difficult topic this one i think when u take into account the range of tastes on a board like this, so i think the Beltram thing is just gonna go round in circles.... ur comment definately has alot of truth in it, but influential figure wise, well maybe look to the people who came before Beltram techno wise, im not sure of his exact first release but Energy Flash is cited as his first release by alot of people, and who gave him the platform for this release? Derrick May, one of the true innovators... im not going to go into the story as everyone knows the Belleville 3, but that is were, for me personally i add before im jumped on, techno does actually "come" from... not the harder sound of course, but the original sound....
Joey Beltram "Places" (Tresor)
one of my biggest influences...
hard but funky
Yeah, techno came from Detroit sure. For me though, I got into Beltram, Mills, NY producers and European producers before I took an interest in Derrick May or the original Detroit crew.. I never really related the techno of Beltram to the original sound of Detroit, it sounded much different; in fact I rejected a lot of the Detroit techno that I started to hear as it just didn't move me the way other techno did. Granted I hold records by Juan Atkins or Suburban Knight as some of the best I have, the likes of "Strings Of Life" or other such classics just never did it for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
In 1989 Beltram started releasing some of his early productions on several small New York record labels. A year later he caught the eye of R & S Records in Belgium and by mid 1990 released his first major record with that company titled "Energy Flash". That was even before the hardcore sound of Euromasters / Rotterdam was there... But it was the time that the euro techno sound took over from the populair Bigbeat sound in the late 80's. Suddenly there was the Belgium techno sound (1990), and short after that the hardcore / gabber. (1991)
A funny thing about Energy Flash. Beltram did not even had the intention to call it techno, but just house music. The sound was totally different from the Detroit techno sound, but it definitly wasn't housemusic at all, because the sound was to harsh / hard.
2 DB: Just name 1 record / artist besides Beltram's music that influenced the creation of the hard techno sound in 1990. I mean the acidhouse sound of 1986 / 1987 / 1988 was a totally different thing. And hard metal and stuff was more like a rock thing / scene kinda thing... Nothing to do with house or techno or so..
come on people! we alol know and love energy flash, but maybe some of you are forgetting that it's from 19-f***ing-90!
http://www.discogs.com/release/2084
listen to it again, and then listen to the stuff coming from detroit and europe before it.
hard techno begins with this record. and no, that does not mean that other forms of music that pre-date it (industrial, some metal, avant-garde classical, etc.) did not play HUGE roles in influencing hard techno...
...but the fact is that none of those things took techno and made it considerably harder and darker than what came before it. and energy flash did.
i don't think anyone here is arguing that joey beltram invented TECHNO...Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
i didnt say anyone was did i? No......Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
In 1989 Beltram started releasing some of his early productions on several small New York record labels. A year later he caught the eye of R & S Records in Belgium and by mid 1990 released his first major record with that company titled "Energy Flash". That was even before the hardcore sound of Euromasters / Rotterdam was there... But it was the time that the euro techno sound took over from the populair Bigbeat sound in the late 80's. Suddenly there was the Belgium techno sound (1990), and short after that the hardcore / gabber. (1991)
thanks ritzi this is what i was looking for ;)
im defo not never heard of him, silly name mind :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
Didn't Acardipane write "We Have Arrived" in 1989?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee
okay, i misunderstood what you meant there...Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
:cool:
That was in 1991.Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
Well, still, he was writing music and releasing it through PCP in 1989. I'd say PCP probably had more of an influence on the Rotterdam sound than Beltram.
might have, but energy flash is still year zero for hard techno (in the broadest sense of the term).Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
locutus actually is doing an ep based on this idea actually. since he is from indiana, moved to detroit, then belgium, then st louis, then japan and now back to indiana, his question was how much of his sound is influenced by his surroundings, and can any genre of techno in this information age REALLY be site specific, or is the geography really kind of all in your head?
i for one tend to think that techno has become so international and so border crossing (which i love because i truly do not believe in borders as anything other than political tools), that location only influences the music insofar as it affects you personally, and less on a specific sound or style.
i also think that if you happen to live outside of any of these major urban centers or just in cultural wastelands like indiana (USA), then you are more influenced by the ABSENCE of similar music around you. some of the freshest art, music or poetry i have heard comes from places where there isn't a highly developed scene or style.
rambling tho that was, i hope i got my point across. need caffeine...
yeah indiana sucks! my least favorite state in the north...
...anyways, nice one brining it back to the topic...
big cities can become too scene-y...too much competition and too much in fighting.
but scenes often start as a small number of creative people who hang out and then go make music...look at stockholm in 1996...then it blew up and we have swedish techno as an established sound...
Don't know about that actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
But from the Dutch point of view Hardcore was inspired by the New Beat sound from Belgium. Tapes from Jade4U, Praga Kahn, T99, Trance Trax, 101, Space Opera ...
And before that there was the EBM (Electronic Body Music): Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, etc.
"Rave Alert" of Praga Khan in 1991 is a typical example of a track that inspired people like Paul Elstak, DJ Rob, to create the hardcore / gabber sound.
I dunno. I still look at all the history as kind of a bedtime story. People can credit Beltram with starting hard techno. But, there were other people doing hard techno at the same time. So who's right? Not saying that Praga Khan may not have had an influence in rotterdam. But, that would probably be in the poppier synth work than the dirty kick drums. Dutch/Rave style synths were also noticably absent from a number of hardcore tracks. So what influenced them? Beltram? Elstak? It's not like Elstak was the first to run drums through distortion. ;)
looks like our history argument scared off riotsound...
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
Goldilocks invented techno.
no she didn't, it was the bears!Quote:
Originally Posted by massplanck
....but lets not forget Hansel and Gretel
In that story, I'm just trying to figure out what guy would best fit the role of Pinnochio. ;)
joey beltram? :dance:Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
:lol:
yeah :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
please be 100% sure that you are right about this. ;)
Dude, people distorted drums long before "gabber" existed. Either way, the biggest problem I have with giving people credit with that is because it's a mix of technology, not a signature innovation gained through practice. Someone takes a TR-909 by Roland and hooks it up to a guitar distortion pedal made by another company. It's not a truly personal touch/innovation at that point. Hell, before I was even into techno, I was running a drum machine through distortion for metal stuff I was doing with a roommate. It's not like we credit the first guy to hook up an equalizer on a 4 track when making music. ;) Due to the technology, it's just something that's bound to happen. If anything, the creator of the technology should be getting the credit. Whether Paul was the first to do it in techno, I don't know.
"hard techno...(deep mechanized breathing)...i am your father..."
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
This conversation is fun. Trying to pin down a musical historical influence is like trying to herd fog.
remember history is always written by the victors?
And theres me thinking it was Micheal Jackson who wrote History.
[quote="SlavikSvensk"]yeah indiana sucks! my least favorite state in the north...quote]
hey now! i can say that, but no one else can! ;) it's like i can call my mom a bitch, but no one else is allowed or i will hurt them! ;)
anyhow, the fact that it is generally closed minded and boring has been really lubricating the creativity here since no one wants to leave their studios to go deal with assholes anymore. there is good music being made right here in the heartland due to the sheer boredom factor. :)
and i had to add that the djs from the midwest USA are still some of the best i have heard anywhere...hands down. i know people will hate me for that, but when you are in the middle of nowhere, you have to be better than everyone else to even get a chance to get heard.
let the hip hop regional battle begin... ;p
hey...i have had to drive through indiana WAY too many times...hence my dislike of it! all that corn...all those strip mall towns...dan quayle! ;)
agreed on midwestern djs.
i can only think of one solution to the argument between tocsin and ritzi...Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
...dance off!
*Breakers revenge starts to play*Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by massplanck
Well, unless the judging criteria would be based on comedy, I likely wouldn't stand a chance in hell. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
But, seriously, do we credit the guy who added vinegar to fish and chips as an innovator that completely changed and influenced the course of the culinary experience? ;)
I havent had the old Five Laughing Smilies in a row for while now. I must be doing something right! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgyedgy
thats funny!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
i think joey beltram is more like the first guy to put mustard on a hot dogQuote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
So is the guy who made that sweet onion/tomato mix sauce like the first "intelligent" mixer of hot dog flavor? ;)