All label owners please read

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Originally Posted by Internal Error Records

that fact is - there is an impenetrable demographic that will not budge from vinyl.

and after all that, i'll say it again - i spin vinyl because i like it. its fun. laptops are not fun.

(of course that last is my opinion. but you get my gest).

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This is the current demographic though. The CD revolution has been heralded for some time but never before has it been as widespread as it is now, and that popularity will continue to increase. Sure, a lot of the people out there now would prefer it all on vinyl, but give it another 3 or 4 years and you've got a whole new load of people into it who won't have been surrounded by the techno scene as a near-total vinyl environment. There's a good chance their expectations won't be to have the tunes they like on vinyl.

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

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Originally Posted by schlongfingers

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

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"Must" and "should" aren't going to hold back the tide mate.

I'm sorry to see it go, but its pretty much inevitable.

Get final scratch. Then you can use vinyl and play digital. Best of both stylee...

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

i think you have a choice. I will always prefer a solid chunk of vinyl to mix over a cd anyday. I think the addition of the cdj is a good thing, but just to play some unreleased stuff or stuff you cant get on vinyl anymore. Also i think the cdj's are far to flimsy to take your anger out and express yourself whilst in the mix. The format for underground music must be mostly vinyl and should stay that way

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"Must" and "should" aren't going to hold back the tide mate.

I'm sorry to see it go, but its pretty much inevitable.

Get final scratch. Then you can use vinyl and play digital. Best of both stylee...

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This is only my opinion, one of many,and dont think this will hold back the tide. Its not entirly gone yet though, and things like final scratch and playing mp3's is not my idea of a good quality sound

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

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Originally Posted by schlongfingers

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

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Sorry that was unclear, I was referencing Mark EG's comment that he feels CDs are the way forward. Personally I think they are fundamentally flawed as they aren't even as durable as vinyl - they are susceptable to scratching and nothing sounds shitter than a skipping CD in a DJ set, hugely offputting both to the listeners and to the DJ.

I love digital as well as vinyl, but feel that hard disk playback of digital files is a much much more reliable method than from a disk that is susceptable to scratching, corrupting, snapping and damage from liquid.

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Originally Posted by schlongfingers

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

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Originally Posted by schlongfingers

Yes definately CDs, the sound of CD's skipping is so very techno.

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Sorry that was unclear, I was referencing Mark EG's comment that he feels CDs are the way forward. Personally I think they are fundamentally flawed as they aren't even as durable as vinyl - they are susceptable to scratching and nothing sounds shitter than a skipping CD in a DJ set, hugely offputting both to the listeners and to the DJ.

I love digital as well as vinyl, but feel that hard disk playback of digital files is a much much more reliable method than from a disk that is susceptable to scratching, corrupting, snapping and damage from liquid.

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totally agree, but still not feeling the 'tinny' sound that digital gives off

In terms of comparison with CDs, the tinny sound can only be down to the soundcard or the bitrate imho

To be honest here I think the point is being missed quite a bit here , the main reason sales are in the toilet compared to just a few years ago is almost exclusively down to the fact the genre is tied so closely to vinyl.

I.E the only people buying Techno (on the whole) is dj's because your average punter just doesn't want turntables etc at home just to play some tunes , hence the popularity of mix cd's etc (and then the subsequent collapse of that market due to the initial rush of downloading), In my opinion the answer to the current problems comes in finding a way to reach your average punter to buy music again instead of just downloading it for free from soulseek or it's equivalent , the tide is turning though in the UK alone in the first six months of 2004 there was 500,000 legal downloads and in the first six months of 2005 there was 10,000,000 and that is still only 2% of the music market in the UK.

I really don't think the format is the issue here as digital is the way forward to tie yourself to another format like CD is a pretty pointless exercise the best way forward is to be distributing digital files (be they mp3,mp4,wav,aiff,flac, whatever) and letting people decide on there own preferred method of playback themselves, the digital times are coming faster than anyone could have predicted now and I will be as sad as anyone when Vinyl finally becomes extinct but to be honest I can't see anything else now.

so is this where being a dj ends? No vinyl no dj's? Or will this change its format to? The new era of Digital DJ's!!! hehehehehe :lol:

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Originally Posted by herman

To be honest here I think the point is being missed quite a bit here , the main reason sales are in the toilet compared to just a few years ago is almost exclusively down to the fact the genre is tied so closely to vinyl.

I.E the only people buying Techno (on the whole) is dj's because your average punter just doesn't want turntables etc at home just to play some tunes , hence the popularity of mix cd's etc (and then the subsequent collapse of that market due to the initial rush of downloading), In my opinion the answer to the current problems comes in finding a way to reach your average punter to buy music again instead of just downloading it for free from soulseek or it's equivalent , the tide is turning though in the UK alone in the first six months of 2004 there was 500,000 legal downloads and in the first six months of 2005 there was 10,000,000 and that is still only 2% of the music market in the UK.

I really don't think the format is the issue here as digital is the way forward to tie yourself to another format like CD is a pretty pointless exercise the best way forward is to be distributing digital files (be they mp3,mp4,wav,aiff,flac, whatever) and letting people decide on there own preferred method of playback themselves, the digital times are coming faster than anyone could have predicted now and I will be as sad as anyone when Vinyl finally becomes extinct but to be honest I can't see anything else now.

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:clap: :clap: Could not agree with this more :clap: :clap:

very good idea.i hate to admit to myself that this CD thing is happening...but it is.
The Psy trance scene(:dontevengothere: ) is 95% CD's only now, and they still make money despite the likes of Kazaa,Soulseek etc

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

I love Vinyl, but I hate paying £8 for a tune that then gets stolen, scratched or lost.

I now love paying 80p for new tracks. And I buy sooo much more music...

Its all about music. Format is nothing.

vinyl is not making any cash, mp3's arnt, whats the point in doing cd's? one eprson will buy it and post it on the web so everyone else can download it for free

vinyl is not making any cash, mp3's arnt, whats the point in doing cd's? one eprson will buy it and post it on the web so everyone else can download it for free

if you love vinyl then stick by it, and the thing is not all titles are available on cd. The most i pay for a vinyl when i purchase is around £5-7, and i dont mind paying this, thats if it is all about the music anyway

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Originally Posted by Internal Error Records

Im happy to see the enthusiasm and comradery of Black Out Audio. But another reality besides cds, is that the 1000 or so performing dj's on this forum can not force the sales-base into converting to cdj's.

although djs maybe lo0king at cd's, the vast majority (all of the) promoters i have seen, dont even book cd-djs' because its just another technical hastle that has gotten easy to avoid by booking a vinyl dj instead.

the hidden control of the dj industry is the event promoter.

you might get a club to buy cd-decks. good luck getting the little fish to invest in more gear.

(all respect due, the little fish are where most of my gigs come from)

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well, here's two ideas.

1) i am not worried about becoming a "cd-dj" cuz the bulk of my collection is always gonna be vinyl. but i am more than willing to pay for cds for one reason: vinyl is less bang for the buck (2-4 tracks for a ten dollar import) than a cd (potentially 8-12 tracks for about the same price).

and frankly, gigs aren't paying enough these days to justify the cost of keeping in new tunes. no more shelling out 200 bucks a week on records for me. i just can't afford it.

2) put the cd dj in your booking contract. if someone wants you to play, then frankly, they can look around and find at least one cd player. you can rent them, you can borrow them...and they're easy as hell to learn on the fly.

i have been supplementing with cds for some time now, both albums on cd and cd demos of tracks from friends and fellow techno geeks. to me, it's easier to do that and request a cd player at gigs than it is to afford a new laptop and final scratch. since my income is riding the poverty line and dj gigs aren't paying much, it's more cost effective to supplement with digital media. i looooove my vinyl, and will buy it when i have the dough, but frankly, cds are a nifty way to bring along some good old school and brand spankin' new tracks.

PLUS, quite honestly, the majority of people who buy vinyl are djs, and it would be nice if labels could survive and thrive by expanding their listening audience. might result in some more adventurous projects as well...

i have always liked the fact that if you buy tunes from itunes or beatport, you can skip the filler too. so many times i shell out 10 or more USD for a record that really only has one track i like and one or two fillers that go nowhere. be nice to skip the filler and just get the tunes i dig.

forgive the rambling. sill caffeinating...

yeah cheers for all your thoughts on this guys. some very interesting stuff.

my conclusion is i'm going to try to go for this. even if it's only a few of my fave labels and more of our own product. the new site has the facility for it so why the hell not give it a go. if it's messes up, well it messes up - you live and learn. thanks for everyone who's replied via pm. i'm still building up that list of interested labels, so if you havent told me you're interested, please let me know!!!

now all i have to do is work my ass of and try to get this site up as quick as possible. then you really will see the potential ;)

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

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There is only one thing I prefer about vinyl. And it's an "old dog" thing. Simply, I find it easier to mix with records than CDs. That's it. There is nothing else about the medium that I find appealing. Thankfully, Final Scratch bridged the gap for me. I can spin my own tracks in digital format, pan and reverb out the kicks as much as I want, and it poses no problems. While cost is definitely a factor to take into consideration, I'd be a liar if I said that was my primary concern. But, yeah, I also like the ability of getting 12 to 15 songs for just slightly more than I pay for an import vinyl with 2-4 tracks.

Oh, and Herman is right on the ****ing money.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

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Originally Posted by Scott Kemix

what do we all prefer honestly though, vinyl or cds? Maybe cds will be cheaper, but is this the main reason for it becoming alot more popular as a format in the dance music scene.

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There is only one thing I prefer about vinyl. And it's an "old dog" thing. Simply, I find it easier to mix with records than CDs. That's it. There is nothing else about the medium that I find appealing. Thankfully, Final Scratch bridged the gap for me. I can spin my own tracks in digital format, pan and reverb out the kicks as much as I want, and it poses no problems. While cost is definitely a factor to take into consideration, I'd be a liar if I said that was my primary concern. But, yeah, I also like the ability of getting 12 to 15 songs for just slightly more than I pay for an import vinyl with 2-4 tracks.

maybe you find it easier to mix with vinyl than cds, but its just not the same is it? Pushing the tiny platter of a cdj with your forefinger does not do nowt for me at all, as opposed to putting a brand new vinyl on a solid plate of steel. Also i have witnessed on many occasions in clubs and parties Final Scratch tends to trip out and become very unreliable, especially if you are paying to enter the club and you are having a buzz this is the last thing you want to happen. My main point is, why are labels going to cross over to pressing cd's if they are already established and sell enough units in vinyl format?

Oh, and Herman is right on the **** money.

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If all the vinyl labels were selling out all their runs in a manner that earns them profit, why all the bitching? If that's not the case, they can find a new means of distribution or die. Personally, I rarely buy vinyl anymore. However, I'm at a somewhat lucky point where, if I really felt like playing the game, all my "dated" records are now sounds that people have gotten into again and missed the first time around. I am a vinyl DJ that doesn't buy vinyl. And it's got nothing to do with P2P piracy. As for the feel of vinyl over CD, I really couldn't care less. I've never used a CD deck with a virtual platter. The only decks I've used are the + and - push button models with the pitch bar. As for Final Scratch, the buzz is usually related to the laptop. On my Mac, I don't get a buzz. I only get a buzz from vinyl if I hook it up to a Dell. That is effectively cancelled by plugging my Dell into a groundless adaptor when I use Final Scratch. Labels that may want to get people like myself back into
their market again would be wise to release tracks in compressed digital format. For everyone else who isn't a DJ, they're better off selling CDs. If they choose not to and notice a huge slump in sales, it's their damn fault.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

If all the vinyl labels were selling out all their runs in a manner that earns them profit, why all the bitching? If that's not the case, they can find a new means of distribution or die. Personally, I rarely buy vinyl anymore. However, I'm at a somewhat lucky point where, if I really felt like playing the game, all my "dated" records are now sounds that people have gotten into again and missed the first time around. I am a vinyl DJ that doesn't buy vinyl. And it's got nothing to do with P2P piracy. As for the feel of vinyl over CD, I really couldn't care less. I've never used a CD deck with a virtual platter. The only decks I've used are the + and - push button models with the pitch bar. As for Final Scratch, the buzz is usually related to the laptop. On my Mac, I don't get a buzz. I only get a buzz from vinyl if I hook it up to a Dell. That is effectively cancelled by plugging my Dell into a groundless adaptor when I use Final Scratch. Labels that may want to get people like myself back into
their market again would be wise to release tracks in compressed digital format. For everyone else who isn't a DJ, they're better off selling CDs. If they choose not to and notice a huge slump in sales, it's their damn fault.

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course they do, if you sell 500 you make profit if you sell 1000 you make more of a profit. I dont see any bitching anywhere tbh. Try using cdj1000, its a good model like, but nowhere near as controllable and solid as a 1210. If you start pressing cds then thats cool, but how much bigger is your profit margin gonna be compared to vinyl, not much i suspect.

I've seen no shortage of bitching here and elsewhere from "label owners" regarding lack of distro, sales, etc. Particularly if you are selling harder music, if you are experiencing such problems, I think it's silly to not sell digital, whether CD or MP3. While everyone likes to point at factors such as piracy, too many crap releases, etc. as being the issue, the main issue that most people don't like to talk about is that, in most regions, the number of DJs who spin hard music has shrank. Sell music in a DJ only format and your sales will hurt. Sell it in a format that the average Joe who likes hard music can bump in their car, keep your ahead above water. Just once, I'd love to see some of those who repeatedly bitch admit that they are going to do that, rather than posting some boring and childish "I'm quitting techno" rant.

As far as using a CD deck, what's "better" has never been an issue for me with anything really. There is a plateau where "better" becomes a technicality. If I found a CD deck that I was comfortable mixing with, I'd use it. But, this is never going to be the case due to the fact that a.) I got very capable with using Traktor when the first version came out, which is pretty much the same as using old CD decks without a virtual platter, and b.) I have Final Scratch. So, in that sense, I just really have no need to invest the money in good CD decks right now. However, I do have a need for digital music. I genuinely look forward to the day when I can show up to a gig with a pocket size USB harddrive and nothing else. It's a matter of personal preference really, not what's better.

Thats cool man, i think we all have a choice what we like to use. But as for the vinyl thing dying out, this was said a few years ago, but never seems to happen. ;)

cds are awful, they've been around long enough to have finally killed off vinyl if that s the way it was going to go.
let the psytrance heads use cd's they have no soul imo.
the symbiotic realtionship between dj and vinyl is special and magic, its not the same buzz doing it with vinyl.
and as for vinyl not making money that is so much bullshit, if it wasnt making money then who would make them in the first place.
what you actually mean to say is , not making me enough money to keep me in the lifestyle im becoming accustomed too.

Whatever it is, Aratron. I'm not pretending to know as I don't run a vinyl label for a living. But, there's been no shortage of threats from various labels and artists of giving up lately due to lack of sales. On a side note, I do know that, for at least the tracks that I've worked on, the most units that were moved were on CD, not vinyl. Over twice as much movement if my memory serves correct. For a label that doesn't deal in digital, I can see a problem. But, that's their prob.

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

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Originally Posted by Aratron

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

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What you've just come up there is format independent music.
Something for everyone.

Otherwise known as digital.

Burn it onto a cd. Cut it as a dub. Play it on tape. Buy final scratch. Its all the same.

Vinyl sales are dropping off towards the deeply unprofitable end of the scale. Legal downloads are skyrocketing.

CDs are a much better format than vinyl. Much better sound quality, and there will always be a demand for a physical format. Vinyl is rapidly becoming a kitsch niche market for people who love it more than the music thats on it.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

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Originally Posted by Aratron

well Tocsin i havent really got a clue as to the state of the vinyl industry.
its all about the law of supply and demand in the end.
why can't things be marketed more intelligently.
like vinyl, and cd being packaged together , that represents the best of both worlds. multi-format items. with a code so you can download the MP3 off the website. i dont know im blue sky thinking

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What you've just come up there is format independent music.
Something for everyone.

Otherwise known as digital.

Burn it onto a cd. Cut it as a dub. Play it on tape. Buy final scratch. Its all the same.

Vinyl sales are dropping off towards the deeply unprofitable end of the scale. Legal downloads are skyrocketing.

CDs are a much better format than vinyl. Much better sound quality, and there will always be a demand for a physical format. Vinyl is rapidly becoming a kitsch niche market for people who love it more than the music thats on it.

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well you seem to have pasion for vinyl. but i feel its unfair to say that people who buy vinyl are a kitsch niche market.
i have a pair of record decks, i dont have the money to buy top quality pioneer cd decks. i do enjoy the aspect of using vinyl and mixing with it.
why can't we have both formats, it doesn't have to be one or the other it should and can be both.
i don't think the argument is about whether people would buy more cds than they would vinyl, i think the issue is changing tastes as a whole.
The way the vinyl industry is marketed and supplied. i don't know i really think there should be both so there can be genuine choice and then the market can take it from there.

passion for cds i mean

i think thats the idea here, not getting rid of vinyl just yet for the labels who want to sell cd's, but having an avenue to be able to sell cd's through the new site, and also continue to sell vinyl in the record shops

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

i think thats the idea here, not getting rid of vinyl just yet for the labels who want to sell cd's, but having an avenue to be able to sell cd's through the new site, and also continue to sell vinyl in the record shops

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spot on. Vinyl sales might be alot smaller than they were, but i have just started a new techno label and have managed to shift all the units and even if we didnt, i would not go moaning and complaining etc.