music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

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Originally Posted by Miromiric

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

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yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

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its still illegal. we cant have one rule for one ane one rule for another. maybe there artist that are pissed off their tunes are getting heared all over the internet from the latest dave the drummer set thats avaiilable from just about anywhwere online.

personally i would be happy. but its exactly the same.

a lot of artist (like dave the drummer for example) have a lot to be thankful for from the internet making their careers bigger and more profitable IMO.

dave the drummer was just an example by the way.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

I disagree, i think its a reality of people being able to get something for free. Market place means an exchange of goods.

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It is a reality of the market place, because it affects sales, it's exactly the point that money isn't changing hands that makes it a reality of the market place, are we just trying to be pedantic here for the sake of argument?? :eh:

and in regard to mix tapes/Cds, I would say this market has been affected 10 times more by Mp3 downloads, and the reason you don't see so many mix or Live cds, or CD album releases is because it's not so viable in the current climate when it's going to end up on soulseek straight away anyway.. This is why only really big artists are releasing Mix comps, as they're going to have to sell a fair few to cover the licencing costs to all the labels that have trax on the mix.. Still feel ok about downloading sets off SS?

Vinyl sales have decreased for a number of reasons in my opinion, Mp3 downloads have had an effect for sure, but there are other considerations that have to be made, there are many more people having a crack at producing and running the labels, and techno is no-where near as popular as it was 10 years ago, and this is a reality that has to be faced, no matter how much faith you have in the scene..

And legal action is not an option, there is simply not enough money in this scene to make it viable, Lawyers and going to court costs money, probably a damnsite more money that you are going to be awarded if you did win a case....

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. Because I'll tell you now from personal experience, there are very, very few artists that are booked every night, every weekend, and the ones that are probably don't even stop to think about Mp3 downloads as they are most probably earning enough for it not to bother them too much..
This is what makes the difference between selling 1000 records and selling 1200, those 200 records could well be the profit that you are going to miss out on...
And anyone out there who thinks it's their idea of a "Dream job" really has no idea what it entails to live this thing 24/7, and whilst for myself, I would never moan about it, (and count my blessings I don't work a shitty factory job) I would love to see them live their life as a touring Producer/DJ and then come back to me and say the same thing, being away from friends and family, having times when you don't know how you will pay your rent next month, having to travel long distances whilst REALLY tired, not being able to do what YOU want on a weekend, can really be a drag sometimes, and it's only pure love for the music and being lucky enough to do what you do that gets you through it, it ain't all living it up, private jets, fast cars and fast women, I can tell you that now.....

Anyway, Henry, sorry to hear someone pushed this under your nose so much, I had a similar experience once in Leipzig when someone showed me a white label they had pressed themselves of a very rare record of mine, although I was kind of impressed at the dedication that had driven someone to do that, and the original was nigh on impossible to get hold of....

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

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definitely. my point was - let`s not be hypocritical about the whole thing by being righteous about one aspect of the story and conveniently not even thinking about the other.

Good points.

On vinyl sales decreasing....

Newspaper circulation is also decreasing. Titles like the times see a drop year on year. They shrank the paper to make it easier for people to take on the tubes & buses, but circualtion kept dropping. Meanwhile more and more people started using the times website for free.
People like reading the times, they just didn't necessarily want it in print. If you combined online readership with print readership the actual readership base of the newspaper is growing. Same can be said about many other newspapers and magazines.

Its also the reason that the likes of channel 4 now run E4, More 4, Film 4, Channel 4 films etc.
Channel 4 alone didn't cut it and was losing market share, but by creating new channels they were able to grow their base as a whole.

Its just business models changing. People still love music, and are still happy to pay for it. But they want it in different formats through dfferent means.
Artists and djs need to redefine what they do and figure out how they are going to get paid for it. Nowadays it seems you need a fair few strings to your bow to make a good living from music.

Its pretty harsh though. There seems to be a glut of money in music for a select few, and comparatively little for the rest.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

Its just business models changing. People still love music, and are still happy to pay for it. But they want it in different formats through dfferent means.
Artists and djs need to redefine what they do and figure out how they are going to get paid for it. Nowadays it seems you need a fair few strings to your bow to make a good living from music.

Its pretty harsh though. There seems to be a glut of money in music for a select few, and comparatively little for the rest.

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this is pretty much bang on point..
The illegal download thing is not going to stop, you just have to work out ways around it, I personally make a lot more money out of performance than recordings, so this is what I'm trying to focus on more myself....

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Originally Posted by crime

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. ...

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totally understand..i'm self employed too and sometimes i dont know if i can cover my bills if i only have one job to do in a month.

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

i get the impression that its not as tight as some like to make out though. :razz: :lol:

nobody is saying that its wrong to be pissed off some1 is stealing your work but at a guess i would say the promotion you get from illegal downloads more than likely does you more favours than harm (just a guess)

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Originally Posted by Miromiric

i don`t see where`s the problem. so, someone ripped promos? ****.
now you will sell 1500 instead of 1800 records or whatever.

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:nono: :bash:

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Originally Posted by oldbugger

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

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well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

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Originally Posted by crime

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Originally Posted by oldbugger

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

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well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

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i know..but i sure beats what a lot of folf do ;) :lol:

the typos wre all done on purpose you know :blush:

i meant..it beats what a lot of people on here do ;)

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Originally Posted by crime

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Originally Posted by oldbugger

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

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well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

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Its obviously going to be hard work, I dont think anyone doubts that. Alot of people put in all that hard work though, just as a hobby, and have a job too. If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things. Alot of people have given the solution though, basically the times they are a changin and its time to adapt to the digital age. If people cant be bothered with the change, then get a haircut and get a real job.

I really want to know, who on here can honestly say they've never downloaded something illegally? I'm not talking techno, I'm talking music of any kind, tv shows, movies, cracked software, and of course porn.

All that other stuff is still just the same as music, it might not affect us cause we arent in the film business, but the fact that you can download whole films, or buy pirate dvds at the market or whatever, that is damaging the DVD business way more than soulseek is damaging techno. And its not just hollywood execs that are getting done by that, the whole industry is affected by the dramatic loss of sales, so it affects people all the way down to the person who sells you a DVD in whatever shop you are in or the guy who drives the van that delivers DVDs to the store. Of course the DVD business has responded by bigging up the idea of renting them over the internet, and having them delivered by post. So people in techno need to do the same, find a way to make the internet work as a way to distribute music - at a profit.

I do use filesharing, but I dont consider myself a theif in the slightest. I barely download any techno at all, except for the odd mix that is of interest. I do download all sorts of other music though, just to check things out, see what someone is like. I particlarly like my classic rock and download a lot of that. But most of it gets deleted after like one or two plays, and the stuff that I like enough to let it clog my drive, I go out and buy the album, cause I like to have the real thing. Its just like when I was a kid and taped my favourite radio shows. When I got bored of a particular one I would just tape over it with a new one, but there would ususally be a few tracks that would stand out and then I would save my lunch money to go and buy the single or whatever.

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

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Originally Posted by Miromiric

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

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yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

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acutally what happenes is people hear good stuff, then dl it off of internet and then get bored by the song (possibly a big hit)
and when u play it u get opposite reactions of those expected

ofcourse we cant generalise like that but the point is there are more aspect of that matter.....


@topic i dl shit off the internet the whole time but whatever i like and think of playing it i try and get it on vinyl
i know dling it makes me a bad person but what can i do about it... i enjoy a good tune more then sex :eyes:

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Originally Posted by Francisco Scaramanga

It must really suck to find your stuff getting shared out on the net before its even released. I would definately be pissed off too. But I think people go a bit overboard with it all. As has already been said, nothing can be done about it.

I really have to echo what oldbugger is on about as well. I really really dont mean any disrespect here at all - but - there are a lot of us in this scene who dont make a living from techno. I work all week in a job that I hate, but I still find time to make tunes and promote nights as well. I never expect anything back from any of that really, thats what the day job is for, all the music stuff I do is cause thats what I enjoy doing with my spare time, and thats how I choose to spend my hard earned cash.

I have many times payed a DJ more for an hour and a half of playing records than I earn in an entire MONTH. So when I hear people moaning about illegal downloads, I feel sorry to a point, but then I think, well at least you arent slaving in a shop serving the cunting public all day for barely over minimum wage.

Seriously - those of you who make a living from this thing we call techno, even if you make what you consider to be a shit living from it, I bet you make a whole shitload more than I do, whether your tunes are getting downloaded illegally or not. Doesent make illegal downloading ok, but how could anyone seriously think that filesharing could destroy underground music?

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I would like to echo everything that has been said here, and also add that life is based on choices and most of us on here are lucky enough to live in a country that allows us to choose how we earn a living. So if someone is seriously unhappy with aspects of their career they should really try and find a way of earning that makes them happy.
Alternatively they can accept the drawbacks, bite their lip and get on with it like everyone else!!

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Originally Posted by crime

and in regard to mix tapes/Cds, I would say this market has been affected 10 times more by Mp3 downloads, and the reason you don't see so many mix or Live cds, or CD album releases is because it's not so viable in the current climate when it's going to end up on soulseek straight away anyway.. This is why only really big artists are releasing Mix comps, as they're going to have to sell a fair few to cover the licencing costs to all the labels that have trax on the mix.. Still feel ok about downloading sets off SS?

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What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

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Originally Posted by crime

Vinyl sales have decreased for a number of reasons in my opinion, Mp3 downloads have had an effect for sure, but there are other considerations that have to be made, there are many more people having a crack at producing and running the labels, and techno is no-where near as popular as it was 10 years ago, and this is a reality that has to be faced, no matter how much faith you have in the scene.. And legal action is not an option, there is simply not enough money in this scene to make it viable, Lawyers and going to court costs money, probably a damnsite more money that you are going to be awarded if you did win a case....

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Yeah, way more people are producing therefore they're busy buying gear and computers, which effects their budget for buying records, and going out to events, etc. Its actually frivolous to think of involving the law in this case.

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Originally Posted by crime

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. Because I'll tell you now from personal experience, there are very, very few artists that are booked every night, every weekend, and the ones that are probably don't even stop to think about Mp3 downloads as they are most probably earning enough for it not to bother them too much..This is what makes the difference between selling 1000 records and selling 1200, those 200 records could well be the profit that you are going to miss out on...

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Excellent point, I know one artist who you'd think would be getting gigs because he's seems to be pretty hot right now but even he's told me that he may have to get a part time job to pay the bills. (Chalk it up to promoters acting funny with the bookings, making empty promises and p & d's going bad or none at all.) And really, why should he? He put his whole body into make this his career, do or die but reality is a b*tch. Same with another artist whom I've literally seen the number of gigs dwindled to zilch this past 7 years and now has to work full time after being able to support himself through this for almost 15 years; just basically having to start all over. Yeah I know, who wants to hear a sob story, "Boo-hoo" but its f'ed up nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by crime

And anyone out there who thinks it's their idea of a "Dream job" really has no idea what it entails to live this thing 24/7, and whilst for myself, I would never moan about it, (and count my blessings I don't work a shitty factory job) I would love to see them live their life as a touring Producer/DJ and then come back to me and say the same thing, being away from friends and family, having times when you don't know how you will pay your rent next month, having to travel long distances whilst REALLY tired, not being able to do what YOU want on a weekend, can really be a drag sometimes, and it's only pure love for the music and being lucky enough to do what you do that gets you through it, it ain't all living it up, private jets, fast cars and fast women, I can tell you that now.....

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Amen. OR have your luggage temporarily lost, or crazy sh*t happening to the promoter and you don't get paid...there's horror stories. You might be in some exotic locale but the gig may not turn out right. But when its good its quite rewarding when you work hard, like any other job.

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Originally Posted by crime

Anyway, Henry, sorry to hear someone pushed this under your nose so much, I had a similar experience once in Leipzig when someone showed me a white label they had pressed themselves of a very rare record of mine, although I was kind of impressed at the dedication that had driven someone to do that, and the original was nigh on impossible to get hold of....

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Wow. And plus you didn't have to pay for the pressing of it. It may help keep your name out there. Should've hit them up for pressing your new stuff. JK. ;)

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Originally Posted by Francisco Scaramanga

If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things.

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Well, quite, you either have to cut your overheads, or find other sources of income, and yes, bitching about file-sharing doesn't change anything, you know, it doesn't matter how many threads on however many forums there are, it's not going to stop, and that is just a fact of life. I can however understand Henry's initial exclamation here though to an extent, it's like pissing on your chips then making you eat them..
I personally cut my overheads by moving to a place where the cost of living was cheaper and most of my gigs were, and basically tried to get as much work performing as possible, but there is only so long you can go on doing it, as it starts to kill you in the end, and this is why you find a lot of acts who don't drink, play their gig and go straight back to the hotel, as it really takes it's toll doing 2 gigs every weekend of a month.. I'm thinking now about what other angles I could go for work wise in the end as I don't want to gig forever, and doing it all the time means that is some ways you can lose the love you had for the whole thing, and in many ways, I look forward to the day when I have a job that I enjoy as much as I have this over the years, and get a lot more love and appreciation back from doing musically related activities, that's one thing that sucks, when your job becomes your hobby, what do you do for a hobby?
I might like to add also that you have to bear in mind before a lot of people started gigging, getting releases etc., this was after doing 5 or 10 years slogging it out whilst doing a shit job, but the points here about having to supplement your income are very true, it's not like 10 years ago where you were selling 3000 + units, and getting four figure sums for gigs. You either have to be gigging one hell of a lot or really on top of the game, or do something else.. I mean I know a lot of people who do sound design (Like Jingles for TV & Radio) or rent out their studios, or have some other kind of job either music or non music related, it's tough out there..

sorry if this rambled on a bit, but just clearing out a few thoughts that have been going round in my head for a while.. ;)

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Originally Posted by webassassin

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

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well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

BTW: if I looked like I contradicted myself there before regarding DJ mixes being downloaded, I didn't mean to, after some thought here, my point is basically: I don't think it's really any better or worse to be downloading mixes as appose to tracks as illegal MP3s but this is the way the world has changed, and as far as the law stands it's still illegal reproduction, but it's that whole Promotion vs loss of sales thing, which I really don't have the answers to and wouldn't claim to...
I will say living for over a year in Berlin has made me more easy come easy go, and ass a result a lot less heated and opinionated especially in regard to mp3s and the morals of it, whether it is doing me out of pocket, as I can have a meal in a restaraunt here for less than a fiver :cheese: so that given it certainly makes you more chilled out where money is concerned...

I've worked it out!!! It's thie internet, that's the problem, everyone turn off your computers now, it's making everything suck, turn it off and cancell your internet subscription, it's turning the creative world into a pile of "Grey Goo" :cheese::cheese:

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

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Originally Posted by koma

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

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spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

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Originally Posted by oldbugger

spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

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Damn, we've been finally found out :blush:

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Originally Posted by crime

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Originally Posted by webassassin

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

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well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

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I hear ya. I think more djs/live pa's should do that. In fact, my big thing is radio shows on mp3 which I think people should pay close attention to. They play snippets of stuff and tell you what it is, all edited into one fun, but professional show and it gets you in the mood for heading to the store. Now, I'm not recommending that everyone and their grandmother should do a radio show. Moderation, can go a long way, folks. But the radio shows that are already around now, like Split and the Black Audio ones are very important. They filter out alot of bad stuff and I think electronic music needs that big time.

Cheers.

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy

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couldn't agree with you more


support undergound artists!

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Originally Posted by fresh_an_funky_design

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support undergound artists!

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Thats what the dole is for.

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Originally Posted by massplanck

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Originally Posted by fresh_an_funky_design

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support undergound artists!

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Thats what the dole is for.

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:coffee:

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Originally Posted by massplanck

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Originally Posted by fresh_an_funky_design

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support undergound artists!

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Thats what the dole is for.

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Hahahahahahahaha

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Originally Posted by massplanck

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Originally Posted by fresh_an_funky_design

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support undergound artists!

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Thats what the dole is for.

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hahaha classic :lol:

me personally, i refuse to sit back and start talking about the legality of downloading, because we have all seen what happens when people like the RIAA get involved. they start prosecuting kids and taking money from the little people (which we all are compared to that kind of power). i can see the problems involved for working artists, and i have seen my own sets and tracks on sites like slsk, but to say that i would like to see people run through the legal system because of it? well, you are never gonna see me say that.

downloading will continue (at least until the huge telecom companies start making us pay for EVERYTHING we access on the net), and we either evolve or die. i would rather get creative and find new ways of marketing my music and my djing, than say that i want to see the authorities busting down doors and taking harddrives.

i mean really. i DO see the validity of dave and others' frustrations, but the alternatives are even more disgusting to me.

oh. and you will never get the slightest sympathy from me about the "trials and tribulations" of being a travelling, gigging musician. sure there are parts of it that suck: missing flights, missing luggage, sleep deprivation, hotel issues, being away from loved ones, sore back from running through the airport with your record bag, missing your cat, etc. been through it myself. but if it's not fun anymore...don't do it. there are a gerbajillion people on this planet that would give their right arm to be in the position to take the bad with the good without a gripe. it's not a factory job, for pete's sake. so don't expect much sympathy on that one. it just does not fly.

****, if you gave that sob story to some of the cats i know in touring bands, they would laugh their asses off. most people in bands tour in shitty vans, all stuck in the van for hours at a time IF the van doesn't break down, only to play the gig and either end up ripped off, or with just enough to buy lunch for each band member (in fact, if my old band made enough to put gas in our vehicles, we were pretty happy). when a friend in a touring band asked me a few years ago how much i made for dj gigs (which at the time was a lot more than i get now), i was actually EMBARRASSED to tell him, cuz i knew that most of the time his WHOLE BAND made less than that for a gig.

and if anyone here got into techno with the aims of making a living off it...i have news for you: you were misled. the odds of being able to do that are small and the market fluctuates. that's the way things work, and if you are not prepared for that reality, then you should do something else. i have a job i love with a non-profit, and while it would be lovely to make a living off music, i am not gonna slit my wrists if it never happens. the majority of people making music will never make a living off it, never be well known and are mostly just happy that they have something they love to keep em busy.

it all comes down to priorities and an understanding of reality, i guess. not trying to be an ass with this post, but it needs to be said.

I use warezed software to make music (I'm coming clean), I do it for the love of it therefore I wont be loosing any sleep if anyone downloads my music. I’m in this game of the love of it and people hearing my music (and liking it lol) matters more. I totally disagree with those who believe the internet, the mp3s or anything else has stopped people from going out, caused clubs to close, the end of the word, etc, etc.

To be honest I think dj's who charge beyond £2,000 for a couple of hours on the decks are the real scene rapists, well more than some kids who file share.

*disappears to avoid angry mob*

P.S if I think some music is worth buying, I buy it. Same goes for software, I do plan on buy lots of the NI range when I am working full time

Im also a registered cubase user, paid 300 for v3.2 when I was 18. To have it updated to the current version would probably cost something around £200 hence why I have NO plans on buying SX

So sue me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Divide

To be honest I think dj's who charge beyond £2,000 for a couple of hours on the decks are the real scene rapists, well more than some kids who file share.

*disappears to avoid angry mob*

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:clap:

agree wholeheartedly.

and what kills me is that when the economy has gone south, there are still djs charging what they did a few years ago when things were hopping. THAT is really missing the boat.

here in the states, especially in the midwest, there is just NOT that kind of money to give to the djs, because there is not that big an audience. the hardcore people will come out for a good dj, but they still don't have the kind of money it takes to pay someone those kind of fees. and so many djs price themselves out of a good time because they are unwilling to budge on their fees. are you in it for the money or are you in it to make/play music and have a good time?

i always had a sliding fee scale. the less money people charged at the door, the less i charged. to me, that was a way to keep door prices low for the audiences.

me personally, i think the money mixed up with the music is what's killing everything. there's a topic for ya...discuss amongst yourselves. ;)

I think the ridiculous fees some DJ`s charge is a whole other subject.
But in my opinion, it`s not helping the scene.
And things are finally small enough for it to be a scene again.

Sounds good to me

:dance:

Fair play if people wanna earn cash I don’t hold a grudge, but some people really take the piss

I actually do buy music, occasionally. Not much techno tho, I dont dj so I have no use for the singles or ep's. I do sometimes buy compilation CD's and occasionally I will buy the odd mp3 off beatport (what a site that is) out of respect for the tune. More oftern than not Im listening to MP3 dj mixes.

fernando for president.

****ing spot on dan.

Well, at the end of the day, people are worth what promoters are willing to pay, and whilst not wanting to ruffle feathers here, complaining about how much certain djs get paid to me just stinks of bitterness, because I'm sure anyone here who was offered that kind of money, I'm sure they wouldn't turn it down.... (I don't get anywhere near that kind of money for a show BTW)
And @ Shiva: with the greatest respect, in regard to having no sympathy to the fact it is very tireing work to be playing every weekend, I'm sure you would see things differently if you lived that life for a few years.. it's very facile to just say "well if you don't like it, do something different", but if that's all you've ever done in your life since being 16 years old, and have no qualifications really to get another job, what are you going to do? I get mentally deranged sometimes from playing 2 nights a weekend for a month, travelling a lot, having bullshit from promoters trying to rip you off, dealing with the whole business side of things, not that I'm complaining because I made my bed, I'll lie in it, but it's difficult for me to "Just do something else", especially when you have already become established somewhat on the gigging scene..
It's also important to remember that the scene is different on mainland Europe to the US or even UK, where there IS the money to pay djs that kind of amount.. Big name DJs set their price, what a night's work is worth to them, and promoters pay it, if they didn't they wouldn't get so much, simple as.. so I don't really see how it's "Killing the scene", a lot of the time these big names do attract a lot of people to events, and if the DJs wern't taking these fees, it would just translate as more profits for the promotors... which they probably wouldn't have if they didn't have the big namess drawing a lot of people to their events... it isn't just parties attracting 50 or so people to clubs these days worldwide, in Holland for example there are parties attracting 5000+people, so I would say techno is hardly dead there...

@ Shiva: You are right though in the sense of trying to charge the fee you would normally charge for a 1000 cap. club isn't going to work, but for a lot of DJs/acts, they have probably done their time playing small clubs years ago, and feel it's not worth their while doing it, maybe because they already did 5 gigs that month, and the travelling is too much in relation to the money, also the way gigging a lot eats into time in the studio... because I know from experience after a 6 gig month you don't want to be hearing any loud music...
as I say, people are worth what promoters are prepared to pay....

i'm sorry but..

how many times have u stolen the loops or samples for your trax & not payed up DAVE ??? did u pay for all those Bananarama snippets ???


sorry, this jus smacks of hipocrocy & bitterness.

;)

;)

truth is, ive heard from quite a number of established djs that there is noi money in vinyl releases anymore. they jus keep the dj/live shows coming in which is where real money is.

and ya know what ? i have NEVER playeda d'loaded tune & got payed for it.

every tune i played, i either bought or borrowed ot wrote myself. d'load quality is shite ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djshiva

i have a job i love with a non-profit, and while it would be lovely to make a living off music, i am not gonna slit my wrists if it never happens.

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If you are happy with your job, seriously, count yourself lucky... because when music becomes too much like a job, it can really suck sometimes.... in many ways, I would much prefer to have a job I like and do the music for fun, but you know how you just kind of "fall into" these things sometimes.... :)

welcome to the real world dave the drummer. where have you been for the last few years?
its not the only reason that vinyl sales have dropped off in recent years (ask the guys who run the shops where you buy your tunes about the numbers they sell these days), but it is a contributing factor.

i dont think many people realise how much (or little) money the artists make from the tunes that you buy in the shops
lets keep it simple here (to the nearest 50p) for those who dont know.
lets say you see a record in a shop and it cost around £7
that shop has bought it from a distributor for about £3.50
that distibutor has bought it from the label for £2
that label has also had to manufacture their product for about £1
so the label makes about £1 for each record sold
most labels do a 50% of profit deal with the artist
so the label and the artist will receive about 50p each for every unit sold.
vinyl does not do big numbers these days.(right across the board, techno, house, drum and bass etc) the sale are down by up to seventy percent.
in the good old days, the average label would do abouut 1000 copies of each release, so it has never really been a champagne and cocain life style for most of the underground artists. do the maths yourselves.
they are doing it because it is what they do and love, and when people do download their shit for free, they are really just making it even more difficult for that artist or label to come back with their next release.
maybe one day underground artists will be selling directly to their fans via digital d/ls from their sites and they will cut out all the middle men, provideing cheaper music for the fans who dig them and still be able to supply them with the tunes they dig.
anyway dave i think i've left the hoover on and my dealer should be here soon. hope this puts things into perspective for you download boys who never really gave it a second thought. if you wanna see another release from you favourite artist or label, maybe you should give them a bit more support. peace on earth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davethedrummer

sorry to come up so angry about this earlier
but it really did my head in
and to top it off i was with a guy who had downloaded my trax
in spain this weekend, and he didn't seem to think it was wrong.
i really couldn't get into it with him
as he was playing for the guys i was working for and it would've got heated if i had.
the guy did apologise in the end after i kind of gave him a
" you are stealing my music " kind of look.
and he turned out to be nice enough
but the point is
how many other guys are doing it?
especially in countries where vinyl is dissapearing
and what can be done about it ?

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I understand this is a massive problem in Spain.

I was talking to Tom from The Autobots, and apparently Breaks is really huge in Spain but they hardly get any vinyl there, so they tend to download a lot.

Even worse: You get people downloading DJ mixes, cutting out the track they like, re-editing an intro and outro and then burning it to a CD.

It's awful.

You can't knock the technology though, it's the cretins that abuse it.

I use P2P stuff / BitTorrent etc. for lots of perfectly legal things. Like downloading source code, sharing my music with others.

its all about the money innit ?

sad

i guess people have to pay their bills and buy food and other things to that are essential in life. i did not realise before how little money that the guys who make this music are really making. i have did the math from the post above it it does appear that these guys are making the music because they love it. it must be so hard . respect to all of you music makers. i have thought before that you all have a lifestyle like the rockstars :blush: good luck to you all and keeps those tunes coming please. it is lighting up my student world :clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikehumphries

so the label and the artist will receive about 50p each for every unit sold.

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it's worth adding also that for a record to go into profit it really has to sell at least 5-600 copies.. so if it doesn't sell more than that neither label nor artist will get anything...

Just out of interest...

A record costs £7, and the record shop buys it from the distributor for £3.50?

Then why don't labels sell the records over the web for much less money?

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason... but please do enlighten me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

Just out of interest...

A record costs £7, and the record shop buys it from the distributor for £3.50?

Then why don't labels sell the records over the web for much less money?

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason... but please do enlighten me.

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If you want to buy records, what would you rather do, go to one place and buy all the records you want and pay postage and packing once or trawl around every record label's website to buy every record you want and have to pay postage on every single one? I know what the majority of people do (go to the shop or online store), and this is why you don't really get that happening so much... AND whilst it may look like record shops get one hell of a markup you have to also take into account the overheads they have e.g. cost of renting premisis and paying staff's wages.. record shops are also struggling to survive even when it can look like they have seemingly high profit margins....