The Means ? Or The Ends ?

theres been the odd comment i would calss as nasty, and it wasnt even my file. like ive said, i see it happening on many forums, not jus here. BOA is prob least guilty of the forums i frequent, and there are very very few nasty rips. think thats maybe the prob with this, i didnt state/ppl assmed it was aimed at BOA & no one else.

ive even heard ppl (friends) sitting in pubs over a beer really rippin on stuff.. ive done it myself.. but usually towards Aphex/Squarepusher fanboys lol but that dont make it right..

it jus seems to me to be a growing culture as the tools are put into more hands via free/stolen s'ware & file sharing via the net.. could be the anonimity of web life that lets ppl be that bit more outspoken with their replies.. i dont know.

i guess its a lot to do with personal ethic/code thing.. ya know, some ppl are big into classing music, others are vinyl purists, some wont play over 135 bpm.. ya know, all types take their whole perspetctive on music different ways.

and what one guy may see as harsh, another may see as kind.. or vice versa.

i do still think its a point.. no matter how small the number or % of it thats happeing, ive never heard so many ppl give opinion on production over the actual musicallity than i have the last while back.

then again, with my backing off production & djing & playing out due to gettin married, maybe ive become detached & more subjective ? who knows.. but i reckon its an alright yarn :)

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Originally Posted by module

i do still think its a point.. no matter how small the number or % of it thats happeing, ive never heard so many ppl give opinion on production over the actual musicallity than i have the last while back.

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Well, in my opinion, that`s because a lot of techno is seriously lacking in musicality.
Bang some uberschall loops together, crappy rap vocal, a few filter sweeps, cliche offbeat rumble, het presto, more Celery techno.

I think some of it needs to be cut down. For an "underground" music, things seem to have got awefully similar to the pop industry.

again, youve misunderstood me or i havent explained fully.. it aint jus techno. i see it all forms of music.

but i do follow you on the 'techno by numbers' blueprint.. there is a formula. like the thing amok said with the 'prepare to die' samples.. ive done it myself. i guess everybody has made that kinda indentikit music at some point, and tbh, i dont think thats bad thing. a quick stage with a style to understand how to make it or use elemnts from it. at the same time, punting the same sound for 5 years of 68 records does show a certain.. limit or apathy.

I dunno, I frequent a few other boards of different music.
Hip hop, drum and bass, dubstep, minimal, and I don`t see it so much.
I see critique, but people seem to be less prone to throwing their toys out the pram when critised in my experience.
They tend to understand critisism more and take it on board.

As for just plain slagging, yeah there`s loads of that.
Trance people slag house.
Dubstep slag jump up.
Drum and bass slag house.
Techno people slag trance.
etc

basic tribalism.
no more or less pathetic than people arguing over teams of men kicking a bag of wind around a large grassy area.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

basic tribalism.
no more or less pathetic than people arguing over teams of men kicking a bag of wind around a large grassy area.

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ha ha :lol:

indeed

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The Means ? Or The Ends ?

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bit of both.

Not being funny, but the only time I've even looked at the production forum, and saw someone trying to "Give advice" about a track, the advice given about dealing with a muddy bottom end and unclear kick drum was to and I quote "eq the **** out of the kick drum"...
I switched off at this point (anyone who knows anything about production knows there is a lot to be said about giving sounds space, using eq sparingly ect..)

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Originally Posted by crime

anyone who knows anything about production knows there is a lot to be said about giving sounds space, using eq sparingly ect.

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I've seen both of those covered too.

There's a lot of talent, and a suprisingly high level of proficiency when it comes to the more technical side of production.

I think the key thing is you can help someone bring a higher standard of production to their tunes, but you can't really help them make better tunes. If you see what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

I think the key thing is you can help someone bring a higher standard of production to their tunes, but you can't really help them make better tunes. If you see what I'm saying.

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well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crime

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...

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Sort of, though I wouldn't necessarily go to that extreme either.

I think you can become better at writing tunes, but it's not necessarily something that you can "learn" from any given source. It comes through expermintation and experience.

Yeah, this is true, you can read and read on the technicality of it, but it really comes down to "Ear learning" as I call it.

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Originally Posted by crime

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..

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indeed.. i like this point very much.. well said.

frequency distribution, audio quality, billion$ hardware this, bloody fantastic PC that, nice balance of frequencies, nice spectrum analyser....blah, blah,blah.

wot about the content, the idea, the concept, the feeling, the emotion, the drive, the gutz, the balls.

If all you listen for is the audio quality of the track then you will miss the point everytime.....

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

That`s like, painting a picture, and the picture being aweful, but the idea is good. Or a good film concept, but employing bad actors, poor editing, and shooting straight to 8mm video with poor lighting.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

That`s like, painting a picture, and the picture being aweful, but the idea is good. Or a good film concept, but employing bad actors, poor editing, and shooting straight to 8mm video with poor lighting.

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I do agree.

On Sunday I cooked a roast, a really nice pork quarter. Served it up by slicing the best cuts with minimal fat and just a bit of crackling....mmm, yummy.

Today, wednesday, I sliced off all the fatty chunky rough bits in all shapes and sizes. Even ripped some of the bits off the bones and stir-fried them in some pad-thai sauce.

Just as yummy coz it had texture and flavours the perfect cut meat didnt have.

Of course the stir-fry had to be set-up just perfect in respect of temp, oil, herbs and even my trusty old stir-fry pan....but it makes a great meal in a different way.

Just thought I would clarify where I was coming from....some of the best stir-fry comes from crusty old woks in dingy old kitchens but prepared in a way as to take advantage of that. In the true zen way.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

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then it obviously isn't that much of a good tune if you're worrying about the production that much surely..
I mean, I think what I'm really trying to say, you han have stuff that sounds raw, and unpolished, and sounds wicked for it (i.e. early dance mania etc), and if you polished it too much it would lose that rawness...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crime

well, it's the "you've either got it or you havn't" thing...
you can't conpensate for crappy ideas with good production.. but if you have a good idea it can shine through a rough production..

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i agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

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just re-read that, sorry, disagree, how can you use that as an excuse, it's down to other people to say whether it's good or not.. that's just people talking up their music which is bullshit anyway...

The best stuff I heard at Sonar was jeff mills hammering the **** out of a 909.

The place was full of glitching, popping audiophile wet dreams.

And the best thing to listen to was a piece of kit made a few decades back, together with some inventive drum programming.

Rawness has its merits, but if you are going to be raw, make sure you have decent ideas.

Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = monster

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = monster

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Raw/badly produced + mediocre idea = rubbish.
Basic idea + sublime production can = rubbish.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/ima...here-45311.jpg

can't polish a turd is what i say

good production values are nice to have, but in the end it's the tune that makes people dance. i had some people go absolutely nuts on some shitty productions and sometimes people stand still to a perfectly produced track.

after a few years (ruffly) and referencing to tunes that 'have made it' it should become second nature to have acceptable mixes at least, imo.

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Originally Posted by crime

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Well, obviously the content needs to be good.
It doesn`t even need to be mentioned.
A crap tune is a crap tune, period.

However a lot of people who can`t produce for toffee simply use the excuse "yeah, but it`s a good tune".

Sure mate it`s a good tune, but it sounds like shit, sort it out.

---

then it obviously isn't that much of a good tune if you're worrying about the production that much surely..
I mean, I think what I'm really trying to say, you han have stuff that sounds raw, and unpolished, and sounds wicked for it (i.e. early dance mania etc), and if you polished it too much it would lose that rawness...

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what does polish have to do with good production.

Raw can still be well produced, and a lot of old "raw" stuff was still done properly.

Sorry

But all this talk is just people trying to justify bad skills and lack of learning.

true. but some of the most genius works out there are by unexperienced producers who just pour their soul into what they do. those are the true jewels and they don't need perfect mastering to be good

A lot of old "raw" stuff wasn't polished or very well mastered - the quality of the finished product in general wasn't as important back then, once it was a good tune. Sure the boss of Trax for instance was a crook, he didn't care if the production matched up or not, he didn't have to, because the stuff was selling anyway. Nowadays different things are expected, especially with the tools that are readily available to anyone that has a computer. In some ways though the average "producer" now has to be an engineer too, which creates an extra learning curve and perhaps acts as something of a distraction from the whole process or making a tune.

Put an old Chicago acid house track against for instance a newer acid track by Jesper Dahlback, and you'll notice the obvious difference - yet they could be both raw in their own way, just one is far more polished and modern sounding than the other, that said I think Dahlback is one of the few who has carried on the acid torch and done it well.

You take early Trax, Dance Mania as Crime mentioned, even 808 State stuff - they sound rough as hell but far more rewarding to listen to. If I play something old that lacks in volume or is a bit rough, I just adjust the eqs or crank it up to fit in smoothly. A few years ago I got records on a label called Robox from Austria - really low recordings, and not too well mastered, but by hell were they records I remembered a lot more than something silky smooth and polished. Likewise, today if I hear something raw or not as pristinely produced I'll still get it if I like the tune - there's still not too many records I hear where the production is rubbish, most stuff is ok.

I think the one thing that differentiates "raw" of yesterday to a lot of tracks of today is the minimum amount of elements used in a track. With muli tracking being more prevalant today, I think it is inevitable that production standards, eq/compression etc. would need to be better.

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Originally Posted by Sunil

Likewise, today if I hear something raw or not as pristinely produced I'll still get it if I like the tune

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Should have said "rough sounding" instead of "raw" ;)

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Sorry

But all this talk is just people trying to justify bad skills and lack of learning.

---

why would a producer need to "justify their lack of skills" if their very raw track was really popular on the dancefloor? I think the idea you have is flawed.

and I constantly despair at the fact when many people hear my new stuff they complain that "it doesn't sound like my old stuff" i.e. v. rough production...
The best selling record I ever did sounds rough as **** (Ctrl.Alt.Delete on djax), but seems to me that there are a lot of people who like it because it's rough, that record has got me more dj and live gigs than any of my better produced releases has yet, how do you explain that? and I cringe when I hear the production values in one way, but in another I love the raw naivity of that sound.. I mean, DB, are you just justifying your lack of a great idea or rocking riff in a track that made the production irrelevent? (This is just a question not a dig)

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****er.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

i think 'these days' have been going on for at least 6 years now. i swear that's why tribally stuff was everywhere a few years ago (still is?)

and apparently the old drumcode stuff had loads of the loops from no-kicks akai 1+2 in them. but at that time not everyone had access to them..

i have lots of cds (more than i could ever use) and samples in general but i never really get into the loopage really. an odd hihat loop - that's about it. the stuff is easily accessable (due to dsl n flatrates and p2p) and work ethics haven't become any better. i think the loudness race issue will come to an end in a while anyhow. it can't go much louder than disrtoted and clipped waveforms, can it?

or they can start taking the volume knobs of the radios and stereos because people don't know what they are there for anymore :eh: :cheese:

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Originally Posted by module

which is more important ?

the actual tune & groove ? or the split frequency of the high end ?

sick to the back teeth of ppl on high horses going on & on about f**king production..

WHO F**KING CARES ????

ppl need to let go of the means & become interested in the ends..

screw pcs.. give everyone a 909 & S2000 see who can cook up a good tune..

can we please get back to makin summat to dance to & forget about who has the most vsti's please ?

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Amen, it's all abt the laugh and the craic. f*ck these high horse techno geeks (you know who the f*ck you are, cunts).

Production is important tho' it aint everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

---

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crime

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

---

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

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:clap: well said.

good is good. there are always gonna be naigh sayers, the type of prat who stands in front of the DJ al night just watching everything he does and at the after session sits there quoting every mistake he made...

good few of 'em lurking around here.

you can polish a turd all day but it will always be a turd

yeah, true. but at least it will shine. nothing worse than a dull turd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crime

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Tune comes first, then the natural process is to produce it.
I don`t understand the black and white opinions you are spouting mark.
You can have both.
If I`m making a tune that does nothing for me, I bin it, I never go through the motions of polishing it just for the sake of it.
Admittedly, with techno these days, there is a lot of, grab some loops, bash em together, polish em up, compress it all so it`s real LOUD, press the ****.

It`s the loudness that a lot of people respond to. Horrible.

---

Fair enough, but what you were saying yourself was pretty black and white don't you think? and I don't quite get how it could be used as an excuse, if I hear a track and I think it's shit, I'm still going to think it's shit even if the producer says "yeah, but it's supposed to sound like that, it's raw production values", sometimes raw works, sometimes it doesn't.. the record buying public will vote with their wallet anyway, and that's if it makes it that far..

as for compressing the hell out of something making something sound good, that goes to show the lack of any kind of dynamics or musicality. bottom line is a good tune is a good tune whether it has the high production values or not, and I completely agree that high production values can really make a good tune sparkle, but as sunil was saying, there are some absolute classics out there that don't have the high production values..

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I agree with you.

but what I`m saying is, high production values and good production values are different things.

I still say most of the old "Raw" stuff was still well produced.
It was raw and unpolished as such, but there was still basic good production going on. not high production values, but good production.

Even the early beltram era stuff, recorded straight to 8 track etc, was then mastered to an extent, but back then people kinda did it the old skool way.
you used an engineer etc.

Nowadays, people get a few plugins, spend a year banging loops together, and think they don`t need to learn any more, hence the steady slip into amateurism that techno has suffered from.

Sure, we don`t need to argue over wether turds can be polished, and that the tune itself is paramount to the production.

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

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Yeah true, you're right... but aside from this, a good tune (regardless of being expertly polished or not) should tend to just shine through. I think part of the problem though is the lack of adventure on a lot of labels' parts, and indeed the desire to seek out new talent. If a new producer has made a good tune then they should be encouraged to get their music out there and not feel they will be snubbed by a label for not having great mastering. Maybe also the bigger guys and labels aren't in a position to nurture new talent as much these days? These days many people are not getting it their music out there because they think it's not "sounding right" or polished enough yet.

You mentioned earler Steve about people saying "Yeah, but it's a great tune" even if the production wasn't too polished... to be honest I hear the opposite a lot more i.e "Yeah, it's alright, but the production is great"... and *that's* the difference in where a record is bought or skipped these days.

Ok, we all know that a lot of bad stuff makes it to vinyl, and there needs to be a control... but I genuinely feel this is only the smaller picture and that the bigger issue in the hands of the guys who are in a position to be regularly putting out records and who might have a name... and a lot of them (while sounding polished) simply aren't delivering. This is the bigger problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

but holding some kind of ehtic of professionalism and improvement in a world where any chimp with a pc can make music is surely a good thing right?

---

Yeah true, you're right... but aside from this, a good tune (regardless of being expertly polished or not) should tend to just shine through. I think part of the problem though is the lack of adventure on a lot of labels' parts, and indeed the desire to seek out new talent. If a new producer has made a good tune then they should be encouraged to get their music out there and not feel they will be snubbed by a label for not having great mastering. Maybe also the bigger guys and labels aren't in a position to nurture new talent as much these days? These days many people are not getting it their music out there because they think it's not "sounding right" or polished enough yet.

You mentioned earler Steve about people saying "Yeah, but it's a great tune" even if the production wasn't too polished... to be honest I hear the opposite a lot more i.e "Yeah, it's alright, but the production is great"... and *that's* the difference in where a record is bought or skipped these days.

Ok, we all know that a lot of bad stuff makes it to vinyl, and there needs to be a control... but I genuinely feel this is only the smaller picture and that the bigger issue in the hands of the guys who are in a position to be regularly putting out records and who might have a name... and a lot of them (while sounding polished) simply aren't delivering. This is the bigger problem.

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WHAMMY!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, the problem here lies in the state of the industry.
Labels (even so called "bigger" ones are reluctant to take risks on different music, and new producers, due to the downright shakey climate in the industry.
Distributers are also reluctant to even consider carrying new names or newer fresh music because it isn`t tried and tested.
So there`s this loop of samey-ness and playing safe, that is exactly the reason the pop industry is the way it is.

and until digital distribution takes over, I can only see this getting worse, especially after some news I`ve been told about the state of play.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

especially after some news I`ve been told about the state of play.

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Which is?

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Originally Posted by crime

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?

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That's ****ed up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crime

funny how I can type shit but not **** eh?

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That's ****ed up.

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nobody likes a ****ing show off :cheese:

Athough I'm a bit partial to a show of ****ing... :eyes:

haha :lol:

I heard some people like to **** the odd show off.