Start The War On Minimal

Thats like your ma, she brings everyone together.

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Originally Posted by Dorian Hunter

But it makes me sad somehow when some of my personal heroes who made me start listening and producing Techno like Adam Beyer, Lars Klein, Marco Carola etc. etc. start to make boring stuff just because of sales figures.

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Why do you assume they did it just because of the sales figures?

Adam Beyer was one of my heroes, and was one of the people who got me hooked on techno. But after a while he was churning out endless chuggy monotonous loopfests. The Mr Sliff records were a definite move away from that, and he's made IMO some of the best "minimal" out there, production that blows you away with a hard edged funk to it.

People progress, move on. Can't expect beyer to want to keep producing chug fests for ever. Same goes for Carola, Klein et all, I can really see an evolution in their output. People's tastes and creative ideas develop and evolve. I don't think they're producing stuff they hate just to make money, I think they like majority of the scene just moved on in terms of what they produced.

If everyone was still making loopy pounders I don't think I'd be that bothered about techno. It would be just another short lived genre that people eventually grew out of. Like happy hardcore.

The main clash I see is between hard techno culture and minimal culture which are at pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. Musically though I don't think there's all that much in it, despite people's objections. Put through a decent rig, there are "minimal" tracks that sound just as brutal, dark, brooding and electrifying as the best hard techno - the same effect is just produced a different way.

The main "problem" I see is that the crowds, atmosphere, clubs and ages of punters is changing, and the old guard, the shaven haired techno army reject the younger "trendified" entrants into their camp, and feel somehow betrayed that the former leaders of the shaven haired army are now performing for a different crowd.

Much as people bitch and moan about the minimal "scene" and culture, most of the bitching is just recogntion that the new "scene" looks and feels different to the old scene. But I don't think blaming the music for the scene is fair. Or particularly productive. If everyone went back to producing loopy pounders tomorrow you wouldn't see a resurgence of 90s techno culture.

I think having loads of genres is a good thing, it makes it easy to spot someone who doesn't operate within them, and does something original or interesting.

Plus you have a small handful of big names, DJs, producers, promoters etc within each little scene. If you replaced that with one big scene, you'd probably end up with a much smaller amount of people making a much better living, fewer labels and parties to choose from, and fewer opportunities for young DJs, producers and nights to try and establish themselves.

It's good that a lot of people try not to pay too much attention to genres here, but they're never going to go away, and they can be handy as a rough guide or to help describe music. It's just a shame so many people take them as gospel, or worse, exploit them for themselves.

to be honest i dont really see adam beyer as mnml at all.. some sounds he uses are pretty obviously from the mnml genre but his latest stuff is just funky techno really.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

to be honest i dont really see adam beyer as mnml at all.. some sounds he uses are pretty obviously from the mnml genre but his latest stuff is just funky techno really.

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swedish techno is a lovely style of tesh! and ur ma is beyer in my bed right now. gotta love the ginger pubes

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

Why do you assume they did it just because of the sales figures?

Adam Beyer was one of my heroes, and was one of the people who got me hooked on techno. But after a while he was churning out endless chuggy monotonous loopfests. The Mr Sliff records were a definite move away from that, and he's made IMO some of the best "minimal" out there, production that blows you away with a hard edged funk to it.

People progress, move on. Can't expect beyer to want to keep producing chug fests for ever. Same goes for Carola, Klein et all, I can really see an evolution in their output. People's tastes and creative ideas develop and evolve. I don't think they're producing stuff they hate just to make money, I think they like majority of the scene just moved on in terms of what they produced.

If everyone was still making loopy pounders I don't think I'd be that bothered about techno. It would be just another short lived genre that people eventually grew out of. Like happy hardcore.

The main clash I see is between hard techno culture and minimal culture which are at pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. Musically though I don't think there's all that much in it, despite people's objections. Put through a decent rig, there are "minimal" tracks that sound just as brutal, dark, brooding and electrifying as the best hard techno - the same effect is just produced a different way.

The main "problem" I see is that the crowds, atmosphere, clubs and ages of punters is changing, and the old guard, the shaven haired techno army reject the younger "trendified" entrants into their camp, and feel somehow betrayed that the former leaders of the shaven haired army are now performing for a different crowd.

Much as people bitch and moan about the minimal "scene" and culture, most of the bitching is just recogntion that the new "scene" looks and feels different to the old scene. But I don't think blaming the music for the scene is fair. Or particularly productive. If everyone went back to producing loopy pounders tomorrow you wouldn't see a resurgence of 90s techno culture.

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ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT response imho. I was going to the say the same thing about dj's 'selling out'. It's not selling out, it's deeper than that eh. I really do think 90% of the time it's having to 'adapt', feeling you need to do it, even though you're kinda worried about it, then realising a few years later that it was the best thing you ever did and you're 10 times more excited about the music.

The way I feel about it all is once you've been playing to good crowd at the top of your game, really feeling that power of new and exciting music, the last thing you want to be doing is playing to six old-age'd ravers in an empty club. Fine, if you're at home with ya mates, and for the odd old school set here and there, but not really what you want to be doing once you've got the bug. It's a sad fact of music, but you really have to let go once the scene moves on. It's either that or get left behind.

As someone who (very luckily) gets to play in alot of diverse and different clubs here in the UK and abroad, I've seen so many scene's evolve and change over the years, whether it's techno, trance, house, acid, drum n bass, gabba, experimental, electro, happy hardcore (oh that was one point i didnt quite agree with ya jay - have you seen how big the happy hardcore scene is here in the UK, even today???????? it shits all over techno mate, probably most other styles for the 18-21 age range). They change cause they have to. They change cause new younger DJ's come in, with new ideas. They change cause new younger crowds come in with different clothes, a different atmosphere. They change cause new producers are influenced by that. And so it goes on....

It's sooooo obvious this change is all down to generation change. Generations affect the way music is. And you simply can't stop it. It's what keeps the wheel moving and the putters guessing. Embrace it. Force yourself to get into it. It might feel awkward at first, even criminal that you would dare to do such a thing, but you will NOT regret it. Mark my words.

Well it's either that or spending the later half of your life being annoyed with everything and everybody. God, I hope I don't come across someone like this in the OAP home :)

:lol:

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

mate that really struck a chord with me today. i thought about all the shit i ever think about that is techno. and basically, it's every music imaginable that makes me think a certain way. i just can't describe it, but it's stuff that makes me think, makes me challenge myself. i suppose the whole fact that i got into production doesnt help cause i'm constantly thinking about what is wrong with the eq of whatever. damn it drives me nuts. :)

amoungst other things, i'll often flick over to radio 3 in the car on a weekend during gigs on a fri/sat and some experimental jazz shit will often pop up.... chrissi and i are like 'OMG this is soooooo techno'. obviously it isnt 'techno' in the 'genre' sense of the word but it's still techno - a bunch of ppl trying to make music that they class as good.

i think if you take any genre, any style, if you can tune into their frequency, more power to you.

you know what? the sooner ppl get over this genre thing the better. good music is good music. minimal can me really feckin damn good if you listen to the right stuff. it's just finding it amoungst the crap. but that's half the challenge eh?? heheh

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mark man....nail on the head....good music is just good music....you can find good qualities in anything you hear be it music or otherwise....if you work in a factory and over time the clunking of the machines that used to drive you nuts can turn into this industrial orchestra...the trains running over the weld in the tracks turns into a rhythmic pattern...tap into frequency's and your brain manipulates them into patterns and gives you a different out look as to how you percieve them....either that or ive had one too many disco biscuits in the height of the russian dispute ;)

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT response imho. I was going to the say the same thing about dj's 'selling out'. It's not selling out, it's deeper than that eh. I really do think 90% of the time it's having to 'adapt', feeling you need to do it, even though you're kinda worried about it, then realising a few years later that it was the best thing you ever did and you're 10 times more excited about the music.

The way I feel about it all is once you've been playing to good crowd at the top of your game, really feeling that power of new and exciting music, the last thing you want to be doing is playing to six old-age'd ravers in an empty club. Fine, if you're at home with ya mates, and for the odd old school set here and there, but not really what you want to be doing once you've got the bug. It's a sad fact of music, but you really have to let go once the scene moves on. It's either that or get left behind.

As someone who (very luckily) gets to play in alot of diverse and different clubs here in the UK and abroad, I've seen so many scene's evolve and change over the years, whether it's techno, trance, house, acid, drum n bass, gabba, experimental, electro, happy hardcore (oh that was one point i didnt quite agree with ya jay - have you seen how big the happy hardcore scene is here in the UK, even today???????? it shits all over techno mate, probably most other styles for the 18-21 age range). They change cause they have to. They change cause new younger DJ's come in, with new ideas. They change cause new younger crowds come in with different clothes, a different atmosphere. They change cause new producers are influenced by that. And so it goes on....

It's sooooo obvious this change is all down to generation change. Generations affect the way music is. And you simply can't stop it. It's what keeps the wheel moving and the putters guessing. Embrace it. Force yourself to get into it. It might feel awkward at first, even criminal that you would dare to do such a thing, but you will NOT regret it. Mark my words.

Well it's either that or spending the later half of your life being annoyed with everything and everybody. God, I hope I don't come across someone like this in the OAP home :)

:lol:

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its a musical evolution!!....animals and humans have been doing this right through the ages....it applies to everything....even music!....especially music!!!!

i think that the plinkus plonkus school of minimal does have limited applications, but it can be really cool for creating a lull in a set, almost like a macro version of a single tune's breakdown/buildup.

i think the closest i got was Extrawelt's output, and their tunes are generally dense enough that i think they avoid the genre.

it is weird to me that the public at large, who generally embraces the cheeziest stuff, would develop a taste for music where "less is more". generally "more is more" with the masses. i think it must be regarded as "cool" or something.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

mate that really struck a chord with me today. i thought about all the shit i ever think about that is techno. and basically, it's every music imaginable that makes me think a certain way. i just can't describe it, but it's stuff that makes me think, makes me challenge myself...

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Well put. At the end of the day, which 'genre' you perceive a certain piece of music falls into depends on your outlook, and what exactly you gain from the music, on a personal level.

For me. it's all goddam techno, it's just nice as a dj not to be restricted to slamming it out every time you get behind the decks. After all, we're not always playing peak-of-night sets to sweaty, heaving dancefloors are we?

With the variety offered by minimal, techno, and everything which lies in between, it's possible to play as your emotions take you, often resulting in a far deeper, more involving performance.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

that was one point i didnt quite agree with ya jay - have you seen how big the happy hardcore scene is here in the UK, even today???????? it shits all over techno mate, probably most other styles for the 18-21 age range

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hehe its still massive, and fair play to everyone involved in that scene. I went to a few nostalgic happy hardcore raves about 2002 and was suprised to find happy hardcore had mutated into this mad bouncey full on gabba sound. But its a "frozen in time" sound. People fall into it in their teens then grow out of it. The older gen grow out of it and either fall out of dance music altogether or use happy hardcore as a stepping stone to something else. Techno for example. Stacks of techno fans came down the well trodden path from hardcore to TEKNO to techno. But whilst techno fans grow old, happy hardcore seems destined to be forever full of teeny boppers.

Happy hardcore is a sort of phase, a "rights of passage" young ravers go through. There's nobody I know now, despite the claims how "hardcore will never die" who still listens to much it. There was a time and a place....

Its what I love about techno. Still does the tingles for me, but no issues with the mind tickle or the good honest stomp. But I've been happy as larry that in recent years there are producers out there who can whip up a full on stomp at 130bpm without trying to burst my eardrums with distorted noises. Credit to all the producers who made the transition and did it with style.

Music is what it is. Doesnt matter what the arrangement is as long as it stirs something inside you. The difference ive found with techno is it isnt instantly accesable. It grows on you. When I first heard some of my favorite tracks, I didn't think they were anything special. But they got under my skin after a while and these are the tracks which still stir me today.

Most of the music I apprieciate the most is not techno. I love all music for what it is.

Remember, music is not something that can be created, it can only be found. That is to say it was already here, you cant create a new sound, you just discover it.

A lot of things we hear have been done over again through the course of time, speaking of happy hardcore, check this track out from the 1960's and see the similarities to 1996/1997 happy hardcore - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8_UN1Sz4XM

Thats ace. Strip out the swing, chuck in a few piano rolls, distorted kicks and a few "lets go's" and you're there.

I left that group on facebook as it was full of idiots being negative & bitchy which is a bit childish & immature

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Originally Posted by Darkmode

Yeah I think the whole genre thing annoying I remember the days when it was Electro, Techno, House, Trance & Drum & Bass now there is loads of stupid genre tags for music that is basicly the same

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I got no real problems with genrefication. It's just there to help sales/exposure. If people want to make it something defining of them personally, and get huffy when you say you don't particularly like a certain genre, that's where I laugh. Things would be better in that regard if people grew a little bit of a spine again, allowed their sense of humor to develop as a result, and not take any perceived disliking of a sound or style as an attack on their entire life and person.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

It's sooooo obvious this change is all down to generation change. Generations affect the way music is. And you simply can't stop it. It's what keeps the wheel moving and the putters guessing. Embrace it. Force yourself to get into it. It might feel awkward at first, even criminal that you would dare to do such a thing, but you will NOT regret it. Mark my words.

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One thing that I've found particularly amusing for the better part of the last decade is that what you say above is something that even needs to be pointed out to another into making techno music. I just don't get it. The one thing that absolutely got me hooked on making "techno" music was the ability to create actual sounds I hadn't heard before which don't occur in nature, and arrange them in ways which aren't really possible under any other circumstances. It was a change from the very beginning, and has largely been a journey of chasing after something exciting and unique from there. In my opinion, not changing it up is exactly the same as change for the worse.

I can`t see why it is called innovative when Techno is getting more and more boring but I guess I`m just ignorant :)

I work in a college and get to see a lot of kids coming through who like Happy Hardcore... but they also like RnB and Drum and Bass in equal measure. Usually through the sound of tinny sony ericson speakers.

The hardcore scene is MAHOOSIVE and i get the impression its a well run, commercially viable form of entertainment. But then the people who run it obviously realised YEARS ago that it was entertainment - not really an underground scene, but a way for people to enjoy themselves. They started out doing massive events and stuck with it - pleasure island, doncaster dome, destruxion etc etc. Its the dance music equivalent of stadium rock.

@Jay - dont you think most genres of music are stuck in time, one way or another? I do - but thats why people like them i think.

Minimal? - i like it, it works, people enjoy it, there's crap tunes and great tunes. Good production is what counts, vibe and spirit and you'll always get that when a group of musicians get into a sound.

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Originally Posted by RDR

@Jay - dont you think most genres of music are stuck in time, one way or another? I do - but thats why people like them i think.

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Not explained myself well on this at all. Musically its changed loads, the old school hardcore sound mutuated into the utra fast piano rolling breakbeat sound, followed by 4beat followed by fairly hefty gabber styles. Musically it moved with the times. Quite like all of the different styles tbh, but the crowds at hardcore raves seem destined to be forever young (classic choon) and aged 14-20.

After a while you grow out that sound and that atmosphere, and want something different that hardcore can't really provide. Most people I know are the same, wanted a different atmosphere in a club, got more into the music itself etc. Might be a boring old **** but I've had loads more fun going out since music got slower and less in your face... Sometimes you want a full on stomp, but not all the time.

I liked it a lot more when I could hear everything in one place.

You mean Whistle Parties in Pennsauken?

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Originally Posted by tocsin

I liked it a lot more when I could hear everything in one place.

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A lot of people say that though, but unfortunately most people's open-mindedness is the exact opposite of what they claim.

Not a personal dig at you obviously, haha.

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Originally Posted by Dorian Hunter

I can`t see why it is called innovative when Techno is getting more and more boring but I guess I`m just ignorant :)

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techno is NOT getting more and more boring
sorry but that is not true.

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Originally Posted by Overfiend

... Whistle...

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Sure, or anything else like that. Perhaps I've got rose tinted glasses on, but music lineups in a lot of the venues/parties around NYC until about the end of the 90s just seemed to incorporate more.

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Originally Posted by Smear

A lot of people say that though, but unfortunately most people's open-mindedness is the exact opposite of what they claim.

Not a personal dig at you obviously, haha.

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Yeah. I'm not sure how much it is about open-mindedness vs. being in the know for some though. At least, around NYC, clubs pretty much cater to one sound on a given night. Most of the other parties promoted at them are also one sound events. The more diverse stuff can be harder to find if you're looking in the obvious spots, which is kinda backward.

At first, when I saw this group I thought it was just your basic, i hate this shit, my shit is better type of group. But then i read what they were actually saying about minimal music and how it's completly taken over every club and even with prime time slots in clubs and events; it made sense. i'm sorry but for prime time, i'd like to let my hair down and thrash about a bit harder than 130bpm. not to say there isn't a place for minimal, there is. i actually enjoy it, but i enjoy the ability to choose more.

I miss being able to choose what type of music i'd like to listen to when i go out. rather than which minimal or electro house artist i'd like to listen to (again).

So for me, start the war against minimal? damn right i singed up! do i want it to go away all together? hell no! Variety is the spice of life. But, do i want bandwagon dj's to stop trying to cash in on fads? ****ing hell yes.

Why does everyone assume every punter, dj and producer is "bandwaggoning"

Why aren't people allowed to genuinely like going out, playing and making the stuff?

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Originally Posted by davethedrummer

techno is NOT getting more and more boring
sorry but that is not true.

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too right henry....what is that lad on about...is even on the right forum to be saying such comments?!?!?!

just got me a download of sparks to rinse @ S.L.U.T on saturday ;)

crackin track!...not boring ATALL!....inovative to sat the least

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Originally Posted by Patrick DSP

At first, when I saw this group I thought it was just your basic, i hate this shit, my shit is better type of group. But then i read what they were actually saying about minimal music and how it's completly taken over every club and even with prime time slots in clubs and events; it made sense. i'm sorry but for prime time, i'd like to let my hair down and thrash about a bit harder than 130bpm. not to say there isn't a place for minimal, there is. i actually enjoy it, but i enjoy the ability to choose more.

I miss being able to choose what type of music i'd like to listen to when i go out. rather than which minimal or electro house artist i'd like to listen to (again).

So for me, start the war against minimal? damn right i singed up! do i want it to go away all together? hell no! Variety is the spice of life. But, do i want bandwagon dj's to stop trying to cash in on fads? ****ing hell yes.

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i agree patrick...i play minimal as well as harder stuff...i play a variety of styles (hard/industrial/minimal/electro/dub etc..)because i like to mix it up..im playing minimal and down tempo techno at my event on saturday but the time slot for this is early (2nd set) because it has a place there to build the night up to a peak time style (cue mr mooy)....minimal is not a peak time music (imo)....only for a minimal orientated night (of course).....these bandwagon dj's need to to wake up...there selling themselves short...in the wise words of bill hicks "play from your ****ing heart!"....R.I.P bill hicks

Well yeah, you could argue that this kind of group is a form of bandwagoning, since it's directly and deliberately opposed to another supposed bandwagon.

It's almost impossible to be completely unaffected by changes in the world around you. Some people will adapt, others will refuse to for the sake of it, and others will make what they think are minimal and reasonable concessions to get by with what they do, be that releasing records, putting on nights or just going out and enjoying themselves.

Situations like the current climate in techno are a lot more complex than a lot of people would like to think, and there are much more than just two stances available.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

Why does everyone assume every punter, dj and producer is "bandwaggoning"

Why aren't people allowed to genuinely like going out, playing and making the stuff?

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Probably depends what region you are in. Around NYC, I've definitely grown a bit sick of it. Over a decade ago, the friends I had who were into minimal would make fun of other people for dancing because they "wouldn't be able to dissect the music." No joke. This wasn't just one douchebag either and they thoroughly believed that, to dissect (aka. appreciate) a track that is "minimal," moving to it would kill that. They considered it the same as adding ketchup to a gourmet meal. Now, in more recent times, add a fair amount of cocaine to that kind of silly snobbery, and the minimal "scene" just gets really dull very quickly.

As for bandwagoning, look into "Minitek" and make your call. You'll find just about any and every complaint made about a style of music or a festival in a number of those review threads, many of which were well earned.

I read an interview with Dave Clarke a few month ago & he said that Minimal does not work at big dance music festvials

you dont need to hear that from clarke
i would tell you the same

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Originally Posted by Darkmode

I read an interview with Dave Clarke a few month ago & he said that Minimal does not work at big dance music festvials

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I saw him at Sonar 2007

He was awesome, liveset from that is kicking about on the interweb and is full on balls to the wall techno, recommend it highly.

But the rest of the night more or less was minimal. It worked. People were happy. Same with Exit festival last year. Just a different vibe, thats all.

tbh, i heard from most people they were bored to death in dance arena...

Yeah, some of it was a bit dull. Green Velvet was dead good. But generally, everyone I was with and everyone I met was having fun. Drinking beers, having a laugh with mates, having a bit of a stomp. Was mostly fairly low key stuff with a very different vibe. But people were having fun.

If you only went to listen to the music you'd be bored, but I always felt festivals were more about atmosphere and having a larf than going specifically to listen intently to whoever was playing.

I have respect for Dave Clarke as he is keeping it real & sticking to his guns

i like abit of minimal but going through the weeks techno releases is minimal torture

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Originally Posted by BDC

I dont know, to me, I like the fact that minimal :

1. tends to make great use of open space with good use of the frequency spectrum, particularly low-end.

2. there is a loose feel to the sequencing, and hence has a laid back effect on the dancefloor.

3. with the more innovative minimal out there, the better producers tend to use simple ideas in creative ways that you often find yourself saying "damn, its so simple, but so ****ing sick...why didnt I think of that"... this of course is dependent on the quality of the production....

4. most importantly, its easier for a wider "hip" audience to digest. This wider audience, isn't as sophisticated of a listener to the music, but just wants some nice grooves to get down to...i.e. chicks can tolerate it.



Now those who know me well know me for playin harder stuff, and I still primarily do, but like to balance things out by playin minimal-ish type stuff....but it depends on the situation I'm in.


just my 2 cents.

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good post dude. pretty much sums up what i think about minimal as well :)

Kill Mini And Listen To Mal
!!!!!!!!! Latest Direction !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

wow all of ermmm 190 members...

you know what,

i really don't see the point of hating on a style of music. i used to do it myself, and i put it down to insecurity and boredom. if you believe your music is best, why waste your energy? put it into your own music and bring something positive to the table instead of stroking yourself under your computer desk.

maaaan some people must be spending a fooooooortune on tissues ;)

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Did you read the anything of group before coming to that conclusion? It's actually pretty silly...Sven Vath as the Cocoon Lord riding a giant elephant into war with the loop techno headz in his spangly hotpants? Whatever next!

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

wow all of ermmm 190 members...

you know what,

i really don't see the point of hating on a style of music. i used to do it myself, and i put it down to insecurity and boredom. if you believe your music is best, why waste your energy? put it into your own music and bring something positive to the table instead of stroking yourself under your computer desk.

maaaan some people must be spending a fooooooortune on tissues ;)

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Perfectly put.

Minimal es no me bag of tea, I said it!

People as a whole are resistant to change.

is this post still going?
jesus
anyone would think this is a drum and bass forum or something

can we slag somehing else off please?

no , not me, before you all get started.

I'm startin the war on slaggin minimal by closin this negative arseed thread