No body has said the genre is Shiiiite. But that the majority of stuff is pretty lame.
There is some very good schranze, but you can tell it has been thought about and stands out way above the rest.
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No body has said the genre is Shiiiite. But that the majority of stuff is pretty lame.
There is some very good schranze, but you can tell it has been thought about and stands out way above the rest.
and the difference would be....??Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
The difference is that schranz can be very good. but as a style it attracks the younger punter (cos it`s brash and aggressive) and a lot of the producers are young, and lack the production experience to put out real quality. Just more imitating each other.
Whereas if eveyone had of said it was outright shiiiite, we wouldn`y have gone into such depth about the over use of compression, unimaginative percussion etc.
We just would have done this
"Schranz is Shite"
Which is ignorant.
the point i'm trying to make is that it's all just so much opinion. just because you or Mark or whoever, thinks most schranz is lame because certain producers tend to sound the same, or it's overcompressed or distorted or whatever, doesn't make it so. anymore than that schranz is "good" just because i might say it is.
personally i think your both right.
i think theres alot to be said for original material and DB has a very valid point. but i think the word 'lame' was perhaps not the wisest choice of words.
at the end of the day this stuff does what it says on the tin and it does it well. so in that respect its not going to be 'lame' to the audience its targeted at
Fair enough, lame may have been a poor choice. But I meant, run of the mill, thoughtless etc, and yes it serves a purpose, but so do boy bands :lol:
I agree with whoever said it doesn’t really sound hard. It doesn’t without contrast, I would rather go back to listening to gabber, at least there’s lots going on in the programming and some nice ideas. Lots of aggression and variation (and sometimes cheesiness).
I think they just need to slow it down and fill in the gaps. Like how techno used to be, it doesn’t have to be fast to be hard. Also techno is much better to dance to when when its in 4 beats and the there’s a wickid groove. There’s more room for the dj to add to it.
Dont get me wrong tho, I love big upfront kicks and warm but nasty dynamics. I personally dont feel its all that bad, if it gets kids into techno then great. Hopefully they will move onto a much more serious and expressive side of techno. Its also not something I feel I am forced to listen to when I am in a club
So it´s basically a quality issue right?
Well we ain´t got anythin comparable to Curved Pressings in Germany, nothing even close. It ain´t really our fault, if the bottom end is messed up on the cuts or the highs are too damp. But don´t worry, I´m lookin into doifferent pressing cutting options atm
And productionwise... well give us a break, it´s our first year and I would say we definately improved our production quality over the course of it.
Don´t believe me? http://www.djamok.net/djamok/DJ%20Am...htmare%202.wav here´s an unmastered wav file. So tell me, is it missing bass? nope. Missing highs? no. Repetitive, boring, loopy 5min production? Not by a long shot. And Arkus P., Wittekind, Seema, Frank and Viper have been very creative lately working hard on making sick techno, that is not repetitive or distorted to hell. Just wait for the new releases coming out this fall, you´ll be pleasantly surprised
My answer is... you can not afford NOT to be on curver pusher. you tunes just sound like shit next to everything else - and punters don't like it. Vertually every recordshop I've been in in london slags off the sound quality of Combat Skill.
Sorry!
his hands are tied,imagine how much itd cost him 2 use curve pusher
Well, Amok mentioned he makes only few hundreds euros from each release on Artillery, that is after selling over 1000 copies, it makes sense if you look at the prices on Web-records, 6 euros for 1 record is laughable.
I too suggested Curve Pusher, but then it would defo increase the cost to elimuate any gross profit, tho I find it hard to believe there isnt a decent German presser, where do Kiddaz get their tuens pressed then? The Suck My Deck album is a chunk of a vinyl. Very nicely pressed.
Eric.
i think that's one of the biggest problems is nobody except for a select few here have produced, mastered and cut vinyl. unless you have money to burn, it costs every cent you have to put that sh*t out. if it wasn't for smaller labels like Combat and producers like Amok, techno would stagnate. if we wank and moan that everyone doesn't sound like Curve Pusher, it'll fade away without ever having a chance to evolve quality-wise. and THAT would be f**kin lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by basslinejunkie
if you like it at all, support it. if you don't, shut the f**k up. simple.
Hmmm, lets not confuse curve pusher with curved pressings.
Lawrie does a good cut at Curve Pusher, if you get him to do it BUT he cuts to laquer.
You are better off going to one of a number of german companies who do direct to metal mastering, which will end up, if you are based in germany, cheaper and better.
my bad. i was thinking Immersion, and in my zeal to get my thots out i mis-spoke...Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
:doh: i always do that
All music and preferences aside, if a label can't afford to sell the public a decent product they don't belong in business. Curve Pusher isn't terribly expensive (imo) and mastering can make or break a track (take notes chester beatty). Unless you're a decent sized producer or on a good label, you're probably only going to make a few hundred to 1,000 euros/dollars tops. I'd rather just spend the extra money and be respected for a better product rather than making a few bucks off of a shitty product. A label and producer should take pride in their music! The whole product, tracks, mastering, art, etc. all represent the artist and label.
Takin pride in your music is one thing, risiking every penny you every earned in your shitty life to press 400 records at a mediocre german pressing plant, the only profit being selling em on ebay for 10 euro a piece at first is another.
I did the calculatios, even if I pressed my 1500 copies at Curved Pressings and sold every one of em, I´d still be losing money. It´s not the pressing that is expensive (actually the price is very reasonable) it´s the shipping to Germany.
I couldn´t afford it all the time, but now I might even take the blow and have each release pressed at Curved Pressings, limit each to 1000 copies and get em out on good quality vinyl. There´s no real money to be made off it anyways, so who cares about winning or losing a few hundred euros. Everyone loved my Kne Deep which was mastered at Curved Pressings, so I think that´s the way I´ll go.
I'd seriously recommend going to curve pusher for cutting mate. Lawrie just seems to have a way with hard techno. I mean the DIFFERENCE with our stuff is just staggering. When our tracks are cut somewhere else they just seem to loose the attitude. Lawrie has it spot on for hard techno without a doubt.
Actually, Can I just get something straight here. A few ppl seem to have put me in the category of not liking 'Schranz' because of what other ppl said after my initial post. Well if you read it I'm not talking about Schranz. To me Schranz is hard techno. And I'm definitely not talking about hard techno cause I make it ;) I play Sven's stuff everywhere. What's I'm talking about is (well a typical one I mean is the A1 of this new Combat Skill by Frank). It's this one beat looped stuff I mean. Perhaps I should have explained myself better. And yeah, I think I would rather listen to gabba like Fernando said.
You know, it sounds so digital and souless when hard techno is pushed to this extreme. Amok, you know I like some of your stuff but remember when you send me your cd (some of it I really liked) but I said about distortion? I really think some people 'over' distort and they think that's the key to hardness. But surely distorting the shit out of all the parts in the track means you get this 'fuzz' of nothingness? It might sound good on 17 pills and a bag of speed :twisted: but i'm just not getting it.
I think this is a big problem in hard techno right now - especially with more ppl getting access to being able to make music out of their bedrooms. I've always said 'controlled' distortion is the key to techno production. But now we're having brand new producers who've heard the effect of distortion on a downloaded crack plugin and think - wow, I'm making hard techno.
See what I mean?
Right. I guess that's the line every producer needs to find between being an artist and having a hobby, or making money off their work. I went to an art show/post-rave last night where some of the art exhibitions probably cost them a few hundred dollars to make each. While the projects are for sale, quite a few of them probably won't sell. It's all about how much you want to sacrifice. I agree, losing money only to have distro's and record shop make money is a real drag.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
Very weird. A few of us in the U.S. manage our labels over in Europe, despite the shipping costs back and fourth over the pond there is still potential to make $500-1000 on a release if you sell all of it. I'd advise working with Curvepusher and Mpo.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
That's the exact message I was trying to portray in my last post.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
People should take a look at their record collection. Ever notice how some of the most professional looking and sounding vinyls happen to be a bit more successful sales-wise? While this correlation isn't always there, every little bit counts and it really shows when someone picks up a record at the shop. That's just my personal opinion.
Yes, it really is true the one´s sticking out are about 75% curve pusher and maybe 15% german and 10% french.
but like I said... I could be selling 4000, with the shipping costs and the price you get from german distributors and after paying the artists, I´d still lose money. Shipping is 250 pounds per 1000 records, that plus the price of the cutting and pressing is a bit more expensive as well. (I´ve pressed records for as cheap as 1000 Euro / 1000 pieces including the cut!)
Simple as this. I ain't ever gonna but Combat Skill if it continous to be so bad quality. When I was given a copy of #2 by somebody I just laughed and said no thanks - the reply = "I know, it makes my rig sound its ****ed - you mix it people walk off because of the distortion."
Why do you have to use German distributors? You can press and distribute from the same country!Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. I would happily pay £7.50 (UKP) = >10 euro if it was clear and punchy rather than just shit.
well, luckily opinions vary on that....
Why don't you get a UK distributor to help ease the load then? Elektronik or someone?Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
Creative Critic here! Give this man a dallor!Quote:
You can talk euro this, euro that. None of your releases have been worth 1 euro. I would happily pay £7.50 (UKP) = >10 euro if it was clear and punchy rather than just shit.
Eric.[/quote]
Direct to metal is rubbish, know people who have used it, and aparently the bass response is awful..Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
There are good cutting rooms in germany, Dubplates + Mastering in Berlin springs to mind, not sure of the names of others, but I'm sure there's a few about...
And RE: Distribution from the uk, what's the point when you're shipping straight back to mainland europe, and getting less money per unit?... I would have thought if you're German, german distribution with good export contacts would be best. you'll get more money per unit in the territory that you'll sell the most records in (i.e. germany)
Bottom line is, you don't make any money out of records until you've done at least 800 units, possibly even more if you're on a P+D.
Quote:
"crimeBottom line is, you don't make any money out of records until you've done at least 800 units, possibly even more if you're on a P+D.
yup.
A tad bit harsh man. ease up please.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyspeed
was a tad. sorry :oops:
haha....capital...Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAmok
it's class vs. ass right here on the blackout network....stay tuned... :clap:
Erm, direct to metal is the best way you can cut. You lose less quality in the reproduction process, because laquer degrades and is effected by temperature DMM can also be a louder cut due to less restrictions than vinyl with the material.. DMM all the way if the cutters know their job.
And I have just been to my distributers to pick up my promo`s.
I got a ton of this distorted schranz, and got back to the studio and began to go through everything to pick out the playa`s.
Lots of Kremer, wittekind, bittshift, combat skill, LFR, expanded, overdrive etc. It took me an hour to go through this stuff, and it all sounded the same.
Some of the production is admittedly, quite well carried out, but there is more to techno than oompah oompah, boom-tish, boom-tish, rise in dynamic during break aaaaaaand boom-tish boom-tish.
It became a bit obvious as to how things were going when my missus popped her head round the door to say "how many times are you going to play that same record?", when I had played about 12.
I try to understand all music, but really I think the schranz thing needs an injection of something to knock it out of it`s current locked groove
i have this argument with a certain producer i work with all the time.
i reckon distortion does not make things sound hard
i reckon it just makes the mix sound "fuzzy" and the more distortion you use the more fuzzy and unclear things get.
clarity in the mix and ideas and arrangement of your music wll make things sound hard and essentially give it that energy.
i'm not saying i don't ever use distortion but i try to only use it when necessary to create that tough effect
i very rarely use it on kiks or hi hats 'cos that just sounds shit imo.
but i've been thinking all this for a while about hard techno in general.
it's just that a lot of it really isn't doing it for me any more
i just think we need some new ideas and to be honest i'm getting really sick of the know it all attitude everyone seems to have about techno these days and the strong opinions without compromise.
i don't want to paint it all black
but at the moment i'm looking for more musical things and funkier things
so hard banging stuff is just irrelevant to me
the odd one maybe but that's it.
you know as an after thought,
what ever happened to making MUSIC? not just turning out TRAX
i think thats where the difference lies between old and new skool
I just wanted to add a few words, without sounding like I am getting into any arguments or taking anyone's side.....here goes....
I read what Mark said in the beginning and agree to an extent that some of the Harder Techno (schranz if you will) that is coming out of late is very similar and does not have much "soul" to it. But there must be a market for it otherwise it would not be released.....I think that if you don't like it pass it up and someone else will buy it I am sure.
I also feel that it is better to have a couple of tracks produced on a poorer quality vinyl (like Combat Skill, and some of the other newer labels coming out of Germany) than not have them produced at all due to the cost to the person releasing them. With all the equipment we are able to obtain now, is it not possible to use the EQ's or some other device linked to your mixer to soften the sound slightly ? I think it is, and you could spend a few minutes listening to one of these "poorly cut" tracks, and spend a further few minutes working out how you can play with the EQ to make it more "Listener Friendly" instead of just passing up on the track because you know that it wasn't mastered/cut in a certain place. What about all the dub plates and cuts that were being made back in the day when Curvepusher wasn't around....what was the sound quality like on those ? I'll bet if the sound quality wasn't all that good the DJ would have played around with the EQ to do exactly what I mentioned above - make it more "Listener Friendly".
I personally bought Combat Skill 2 due to the tracks on the B side, which I think are stonking tracks....but the A side doesn't do anything for me and does fall into that category of being hard for the sake of it. (In my eyes anyway, but probably not in the Producers eyes). I am grateful to the producers pushing out these tracks on these so called "poorer cuts", as we have an opportunity to hear some quality tracks which lets face it - would not be available to us if all these guys and gals only had one option to release them. :clap: :clap: :clap: Thank you.
On a final note, I have been playing around with some of the Jungle I used to mix a while back and they are by far nowhere near as well cut as some of the Techno I have in my box.....I still play them though ;) Hope I haven't babbled too much, and made no sense...which I probably have :scratch: :lol:
hey AMOK...i really like the sound of that new track! i heard a lot of your other stuff...didnt like it much...but with this one, you really did something mean...this gives me sorta the same feel as some of the andreas krämer(not kremer) releases, like nachtpsychose and the likes
soundds like youve really experimented a lot on this one, i like it a lot. keep going on, big respect from here...man this is some hard sh"#€""t :)
hard as in the non-fuzzy wuzzy way...i guess since noone has given amok a comment on it is because they didnt feel like downloading a wav file?....well...people check i out thats all i can say, cause its sounding good
:lol:
I'm definitely curious to your take on this situation based on the fact that your label was mentioned more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ OCRAM
Well, that is a opinion not a fact!Quote:
Originally Posted by SummerOfSam
Fact about my Label is that every csk release (including lot of re-presses of them) where sold out after few days,
and i have re-orders for every release, yet! (PS. 800 of CSK002 will be repressed in next weeks again ;))
and Fact about "German Schranz" is, that it booms!
Or why we are so successful?
Facts, If you like it, or not ;)
but i respect your opinion ;)
(hard) techno is about having a pallete of many styles from distortion/bleepy/melodic/just down right bang/whatever you want.
then you mix them with others to create your own sound.
so what if the production is just a loop with the odd filter...if thats what i want to drop at that point of my set to create "that feeling" in the club ill use it, no matter how easy it was to make...all i promise to do is to add my dj sound/mix to it.
its up to me as th dj to flip it in a way that IS unique.
ive nothing against crazy fuked up distortion(altho some is distorted a bit much IMO), i mix it with other non distoted shit to give it melody/groove etc.....
BUT listening to a whole set of distorted techno IS boring as fuk, so would be listening to a whole set of minimal shit.........
Use techno like a painter uses colours in his pallete.
And give these younger producer a little break.....ther young, still learning, and im sure in a few years will be better and discover new techniques.
And amok- that new shit is wicked.....hard but with some good thought...
I luv most forms of techno but i AM LUVIN the good shranz at the mo..
Take the "clubby baby" remixes(shranz)....now that is quality fuked up nonsence that send the tek heads BALLISTIK....more of that please..
Yeah, Amok, I enjoyed that wav, the production was a little clearer, and some interesting breaks and stuff occurred. Nice Bassline.
But I still think, with this stuff you have so little room in the mix, you can`t really alter the swing of the beat. Cos if a sound gets too close to the kick within the pattern structure, it is over compressed.
So you end up locked to the oompah oompah boom-tish boomtish
Hard House does the same thing, oompah oompah.
Your production has come on in leaps and bounds sisnce your first release, and I hope it doesn`t seem like everyone is a having a dig, but I like a bit of this type of music, but in the same way that hard house trapped itself in a sound and died, this may happen to schranz. Maybe you could lead the way??? try breaking up the beat a bit, and changing the emphasis away from the marching on and off beat thing.
In my personal opinion, techno tracks by Adam Beyer, Liebing, Umek, Chris McCormack, Ben Sims etc. are overdone. It's too old now, it became boring over the years. :roll: Now, Schranz is a style which is a lot more dynamic - it's got more punch, more drive... I just love it! :love: Okay, so we are all young producers but we don't lack experience. I am producing techno music since 7 years now - it's my passion. I've listened to Glenn Wilson, Chris Liebing, Umek etc. before and the music's not bad (okay, except for Liebing 'cause he sucks) but now I need something new. In Germany, there's a split in the techno scene between those who like Schranz and those who don't but fortunately the Schranz scene is still growing (not only in Germany).
Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...
And there lies the problem. People are blinkered and there are too many tunnel vision DJ`s.Quote:
Oh yeah, I forgot: a whole set of crazy distorted techno isn't as boring as a set of looped percussive techno tracks...
Yes a set of looped percussion is boring, as is a set of schranz (crazy?), the secret to a good mix surely is a mix of styles, embracing the best elements from all the sub genre`s of techno.
And couple breaks and electro tuneage wouldnt hurt either ;)Quote:
Yes a set of looped percussion is boring, as is a set of schranz (crazy?), the secret to a good mix surely is a mix of styles, embracing the best elements from all the sub genre`s of techno.
Eric.
yup...i just saw paul langley the at the weekend......just played hard techno all the way through with no breaks or flava/meldoy added..... was just boomboom all the way through, was boring me at times even tho i did like most of the tunes he was playing.....i was just thinking--"will you switch it up a little, please"........afterall when i go for a chinese i like to have a taste of everything not just a big bowl of lemon chicken....Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
have a techno banquette not just one dish. ;)
exactly what i was trying to say.....just an intelligent, lucid version.... :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
[/quote]have a techno banquette not just one dish.what ever happened to making MUSIC? not just turning out TRAXQuote:
haha, spot on.
i think thats where the difference lies between old and new skoolQuote:
Now that is what I`m talkin about.
Wisdom from the man himself.
oops
shranz is something special ;) and in germany and all over the europe is very listened ;) or you love it or you don't, or you have the feeling for it or you don't, you like it hard and pumping or melodic and easy....
it's nice that you express your opinnion about the producers and the music which is beeing sold very good ;)
you have to have respect for other hard techno/techno/schranz.. and know how to criticize them and why you criticize them. they make their music just like you do, with soul and lots of feelings.some of the saying here like 'schranz is shit' and so on.....where do you want to get with this??!!
have respect and you will be respected ;)
CSK,artilery,friendly fire, insane rec. and so on.... have great productions out ;) :lol:
greets from germany :lol:
If you slow some down to 135 there's a four four beat a hat and static.
Real Creative guys. :dontevengothere:
it`s not that black and white. I tend to embrace all music types. I like it both hard and pumping AND melodic and easy. I also like a bit of schranze (fast and distorted). But c`mon fellas mix it up a bit.Quote:
or you love it or you don't, or you have the feeling for it or you don't, you like it hard and pumping or melodic and easy