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I'm afraid I have to disagree! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Hardcore is a offspring of a parralel between the early hard (Belgium) techno sound of Joey Beltram and the Bigbeat sound. (T99, Praga Kahn, ...)
Hardcore comes from Rotterdam. (1991 / Parkzicht sound)
But Joey Beltram invented hard techno.
That's a hard fact. He was the first one with Energy Flash. (the blueprint for all Euro-techno sounds)
i'm gonna have to agree with ritzi to a degree here...beltram (and belgian hardcore producers) were the first ones to inject "hard" into "techno." besides, jungle has its roots in breakbeat hardcore, which itself derives from belgian hardcore and joey beltram, so the roads still lead back to the man (and a small number of others). if someone is into hard techno and joey beltram means nothing to them, that just means they aren't aware of the music's history...Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
but that, of course, doesn't necessarily mean any of these people are directly influenced by beltram...only indirectly...
and i we are now successully on a tangent!
:clap: :clap: :clap:
The act I heard first that sounded closest to any "hardcore" I like now was Ministry. Beltram had **** all to do with that. I've got no problem with people giving credit to certain artists for certain sounds. But, as people accept a subjective history as a greater truth every day, it really seems that a number of people are willing to give certain producers way tooo much credit towards what they influenced.
can't speak for ritzi, but i was not saying that there is one root for hard techno, but that beltram was really the first one to make techno hard (along with the belgians at R&S), which changed techno forever, and that every hard track that comes out afterwards is, as a result, influenced by that tragectory.Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
if beltram hadn't done it, someone else probably would have. but then we'd have different people at different times listening to different records, and the whole tree of accidental or situational influences would be different...
To be creative you've got to take stuff in, it doesn't matter what that influence is, and by this I mean any and all things in life, otherwise jack would be a very dull boy/girl. While it is possible to pinpoint key moments/tracks, but when you actually think what has take place before said event, well it's pretty deep and a massive web.
I've always been influenced by the sound of Sheffield, the drop forge hammers, rattling trains, the pit wheels and whistles. As well as Cabs, B.E.F, Clock DVA, League, The Future etc - you can hear this in the music of System 23, however if you don't know about Sheffield then I guess you are hearing something else as you can't map my influences onto the music and this for me is the beauty of techno - one foot in the present and one foot in the future. With System 23, we live for the dance floor, the double drop, eyes shut, nearly falling over as the filters and pads kick in, in the dark terror that lives in us all. One smiley face, one sweaty hand shake makes it worth it. After all this time we still live for Friday/Saturday night and that isn't down to one person, its down to millions - from the people who pay on the door to those that shake your ass, they are all connected.
Beltrams so called "hard techno" was pussy and girlie compared to many of the eraly industrial electronics. Maybe he took his influence from them and toned it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
I know plenty of producers who`s influence comes more from metal than from beltram in terms of their roots.
All of this pinning things down to one person stuff is lame.
im really confused as to how people think Beltram has any links with hard techno, especially hardcore...
Energy Flash is so far away from either i cant grasp the argument here?
yeah, well, i only agree with ritzi's original statement to the point of accepting joey beltram as one of the first people to make techno hard, and thus a massive and undeniable influence (either directly or indirectly) on what came after.
he's not the only person to have thought of that (the belgians), nor was he working in a vacuum. neither were industrial musicians.
everyone is influenced by what came before them on a given tragectory...
I'll have to concur that Metal & Salsa/merengue brought about the desire to adhere to rhythmic fast paced music.
There's a lot of old Beltram material you haven't heard then :)Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
TrueQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunil
But I still would not concede he bore hard techno
well ive heard alot of Beltram but again, i dont see where the hard techno tag is coming from.... to me its just Beltram, plain and simple, and i would think there are alot more european based producers who've had more of a hand in shaping the hard techno sound we know today, im not saying i know of them because the history of hard techno is not something that im fussed about, im just saying im sure there were others doing more for the harder sound than JB......
for the record i think location and the music one produces, for me personally anyway, bare no relation to each other... u make what u make, regardless of location... sure friends and ur location influence ur work but for me it doesnt have a hold on what actually comes out of the speakers...
How do you know it’s not due to your social background, your friends, etc that you got into techno in the 1st place? Perhaps had we all be been born somewhere else, brought up in different circumstances then none of it would have ever happened. If we all look externally for influence and location could play a huge part in the identity of your sound or the style of music your intoQuote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
Well perhaps?
In relation to Beltram, I wouldn't agree that he is the sole creator of hard techno either but lets be fair, he has been influential in many ways. He's made tonnes of hard techno, many of them classics. I think it's the fact that he had a different kind of energy and funk to everyone else somehow makes people disassociate him with hard techno or say that it's just the "Beltram sound".. whatever way you look at it though, A LOT of it was hard techno.
And as for hardcore, come on? He was a big name on the hardcore scene.
In terms of European hard techno producers shaping today's sound then sure, that's the way it has gone in many respects. We're going back a bit in time here though, when your Surgeons/Beyers/Liebings hadn't even started out. There's few pioneering or well known hard techno producers of the last number of years that wouldn't have a fond Beltram memory or indeed have been influenced in some way.. it's virtually impossible.
Listen to Game Form by Beltram on Tresor records...I think its Tresor #033.. or something like that... so one of the earlier ones...
this tune is way different than Energy Flash..Its like that Hard banging, almost owerwhelming sound...so perhaps a more clear association will emerge... Dunno... I can't say one way or the other what's what with Beltram and modern Hard Techno... But if I had to place a bet...I would say weather directly or indirectly...he had a huge influence
Not my area of expertise though..
come on, im not clueless u know guys, i have actually hard Game Form :roll:.... il admit im unaware of Beltrams involvement with hardcore, i did note that im not big on the history, they are questions in my posts, not statements....
i know how i got into techno danny, i went to a club called Voodoo nearly 7 years ago with my mates.... its that simple... sure if i had been brought up in the outer reaches of Mongolia, there is a good, well lets say above average, chance that i wouldnt even know what techno was, but thats irrelevant.... my comment meant literaly, it shouldnt, and doesnt for me personally, matter where u come from, u really do make what u make... id hate to be someone like Surgeon or Regis who are just instantly labelled "Birmingham techno"... or anyone who does schranz makes "german techno" etc etc ...
that should read "heard"
Yep, I know plenty of people who make techno who wouldn`t know a any beltram records, nor pull any influence from them.
Me neither.
Musical inflence is way too diverse to pin it down to one person.
ok but say you didnt come from the same background, didnt take drugs, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by eyes without a face
It might not have happened, your tastes mite have been different, what makes you tick would be/could be different.
Funny you should say that about Mongolia, I always thought you was a bit of a Mongol
:lol:
Fair enough, although in the bigger scheme of things Beltram has been as influential a figure within techno as you can get..Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Someone making techno that doesn't know any Beltram records? Come on, what rock have they been living under? They don't have to be influenced by him, and i'll take your word that they aren't... but jesus christ, anyone into techno needs to know some Beltram records.. he's one of the kings for **** sake :!: :clap: