True, we`ve lost a hell of a lot of record shops in the UK this last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
I just heard that Massive in oxford has now gone.
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True, we`ve lost a hell of a lot of record shops in the UK this last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
I just heard that Massive in oxford has now gone.
No!Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Does that include the one in Birmingham?
I went there once a year or two ago, and it was one of the most pleasant record-buying experiences I've ever had. The guy was falling over himself to be helpful, and clearly really loved the music - knew his way round all the records, and was looking at what I'd picked out and suggesting other stuff. Very cool.
Kept meaning to go back and never did.
yeah they have both gone bust, i thought it was a sucessful shop aswell, it was a big suprise when i heard this,
many of the actual brick-and-mortar stores that remain (anywhere, really) are sad versions of their former selves as well...
Hardwax and Friezeitglauben are definite exceptions to the rule here in Berlin, along with Syntax in Leipzig... it's not all doom and gloom...
yeah, true, but a lot of my favorites in europe and the us are either gone or decimated...
I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producersQuote:
Originally Posted by The Divide
As for high dj fees, as a promoter if we can't afford them i won't book them. Unfortunately if we don't have a low door price people will turn around and walk away and we use a low capacity club (300)
Any profit we make pays for the nights we lose money if there's any left it pays generator fees for parties in the summer (when the club is shut)
On rare occassions we have to put our hands in our pockets to help pay for events and after all the work and effort we put in this can be a bit heartbreaking (especially when you get people wingeing at you on the door about the price) i guess it's the same when people download your tunes for nowt :(
in some cases software is made by megacorporations, but in others it's done by small developers who make their enture living off of a handful of sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by tOM B
i'm not coming down on this as implacably opposed to all use of warez, but it's wrong to assume all software comes from big business...
@ crime: i really do see the down sides of gigging. i may not gig as much as some, but boy do i have some horror stories myself.
i made a promise to myself a long time ago that if it was ever not fun anymore that i would walk away. that's me though. i think you can see my point that there are far worse things in the world one can do for money. really, it's a matter of perspective. and luckily for me i have other passions that keep me fairly balanced (hell, hours and hours on a plane just means more reading time to me...). :)
in that case rip it off from the mega corps and buy it from the small folksQuote:
Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk
Oh god yeah, i'm certainly glad I don't have to work shitty factory or call centre jobs anymore, and am more than happy that I had the oppotunity to leave the country where I was born and experience living in a different country with a different language, just as Mike Humphries said, it's not the "Champange and Cocaine" lifestyle that some people really seem to believe...Quote:
Originally Posted by djshiva
And you are right, if you are not enjoying it, you should get out, but that is not to say, even when you are enjoying it, you have a few shitty gigs and stressfull travelling experiences it can really put you offf for a while no matter how much your heart is into it.... I generally find though as much as I can bitch when I'm touring a lot, take a month off, and your raring to get back on the road... Off to Poland next week for 2 shows after a month off, so I'm raring to go right now ;)
i think quite simply if your naive enough to think your going to get into the scene for the money and charly, then you probably dont deserve to be getting your stuff out ahead of the genuine people anyway....
quite simply put, illegal downloads do take away from the labels and artists, but if anyone is solely relying on music, especially techno right now, as their only source of income, and actually moaning when they arent making as much as they should be, wether this is justified or not i.e illegal download of upcoming ep's etc etc, then they need to open their blinkers a little and maybe join the real world again, GET A PROPER JOB TOO! There must be a shed load of outlets and opportunities for someone with a good experience of music production and would only take a good bit of digging around to find something suitable.
Dont put all your egg's in one basket
or just dont pretend your not doing as well :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeswithoutaface
obviously a techno thing :razz:
Not everyone wants to work a sucky job, to be good at music, you need to have the time to commit to it.
I`m ok, I`m lucky to have found a job that allows me the hours I want, for good money, but it took ages to get something like that.
All these arguments are moot. The point is, it`s all just an attempt to justify theft. If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not
and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...
Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?
well, i dont think ANYONE wants to work a sucky job, ive yet to come across anyone who really WANTS to work in a crummy shop like myself, it's a case of having too, and not being bitter about it, as that will only further antagonise yourself and ultimately end up getting yourself down, depressed, anxious for something else to be happening etc etc
i agree to having to have time to commit to music, that's soley why i went to a part time job last year. But of course as EVERYONE knows, living isnt free, and its about finding a balance. No one's denying that music shouldnt be paid for, i certainly am not i agree 100% that music is like any other product for sale, it should be legally purchased. I dont think anyone is trying to justify theft, any comments that do indicate that in this thread are clearly tongue in cheek, well certainly some are without having to point them out.
I'l never be without a normal job and i genuinely think that anyone who does exist within the scene who had any sense about them would have a regular job or a pretty solid sideline i.e decent temp work when they want it, as you never know whats around the next corner. Either that or ensure your dj/live schedule is seriously, solidly booked up, but of course even then that's not guarenteed until you've done the gig and the money is in your hand
Look....Quote:
Originally Posted by module
A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.
Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.
Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.
The two cases are incomparable
Stop being an arse.
i feel like we've had this conversation before...say maybe 8 or 9 times in the past couple years...?
yeah, i had a certain sense of deja-vu myself
i think that's the critical point ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
i dont think they are. hes talking about stolen music.
look, for the hell of it, lets jus agree to disagree, cos i aint backing down.
Its not an attempt to justify theft at all, not from me anyway. From the outset I said it must suck, and I said that I would be pissed off too. I also said no disrespect intended, and I meant that.
But I also meant it when I said (more or less) get over it. We've all heard about this crap so many times now.
One thing I've noticed though, is that this thread runs in cycles (just with new names), but every time the subject of tinternet and downloading comes up, I'm noticing more and more positive ideas and stories relating to the use of the internet for furthering rather than hindering people in our scene. There are always new sites mentioned that are selling mp3s, or new ideas about how to stay in the game. Crime has come out with alot of interesting information this time around if you ask me. Thing is, alot of it would be common sense to business types - cut overhead and costs, stay close to the source of business, concentrate on the main breadwinner. Still, it helps to hear these things sometimes, especially as musicians very very notoriously are bad at business and usually die penniless - even the very very famous ones - am I the only person here who realises this? Anyway, its always amusing, and I think eventually, through mashing it out like this, we will sort it all out one day (but what will come along and destroy music then?).
And as for people paying for other forms of entertainment - do they really, all the time? You sure people dont just sometimes go to the library and check a book out - for free! Are you telling me you've never watched a pirate DVD? What about borrowing a CD/DVD/video game off a friend, you're listening/watching/playing but not paying! And everyone must have copied a tape or a CD at some point. And what about buying records second hand - the artist isn't getting any money from that, so thats well harsh isent it?
I'm not saying people should just borrow and copy all the time. I definately do not, I'll say it again, I AM NOT A THEIF. Come round to my house and check out my hundreds of CDs and DVDs and books and even a fair few records despite the fact I dont play records. If I bought every single tune I ever listened to, book I've read, film I've watched, and game I've played, I would have to be living in the millenium dome, just so I could store it all. I'm sure its the same for everyone else. I buy as much as I can, and anything that I borrow or check out from the library or hear on the radio - or download - and really like, I buy it, once again, Im sure just the same as most people on here.
I’m hoping the internet is going to start reshaping techno so it not only sounds good out in a club, but is worth listening to at home.
Instead of panicking about record sales going bust why don’t we all just focus on the inevitable, that music is going to be distributed via the web either MP3 or CD. I think that people who believe their tunes aint selling because of file sharing are living in denial of the consumer & social changes facing music and media in general. Way I see it is like this, those who used to buy vinyl have moved on, have responsibilities in their lives and can’t afford to spend £50+ a week on vinyl. Like it or not, it seems that techno isn’t capturing the imagination of younger people so a decline is going to happen until it starts to change. To do that it needs to start thinking outside the box. If it doesn’t, the party scene will end up where it’s already going, zimmer frame central.
Embrace it or die imo
I could be wrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Divide
:lol: :lol:
a funny story: a few years ago after a particularly stressful trip to a particularly disorganized event, i was about ready to throw it all in, at least insofar as really promoting myself as a dj and blah blah blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
on the way home, once i got back into my city, i decided to stop at the video store to get a movie to relax with when i got home. my friend ran the video store, and i walked in to find two drum machines sitting on the chair near the counter (roland tr-505 and 727). i asked him what was up and he said a friend had brought them over cuz he found them in his closet. when the guy came back, i was so into them that he gave them to me. just gave em to me. those were my first drum machines, and i decided the techno gods were giving me a signal that i needed to stick around.
so i did. ;)
Call that means I can release the Voidloss Remix/Rework of Pete Donadlsons WAR on the next Singularity Release, and I don`t have to pay him a penny, sweeeeeeet.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
You tend to find that the people that own the copyright to these things arn't really bothered unless you're selling at least 5000 if not 10000 copies, I know of people who have got away with much worse...Quote:
Originally Posted by module
This is the way that it works, it was never the case that we made loads of money BECAUSE the producer used samples from an old TV show, in fact it was the worst selling release on the label and we never re-couped the production costs, so obviously even if whoever owned the rights to the Streethawk had heard it, they wouldn't bother to sue as there would be no money there to take anyhow...
I'm in agreement that sample clearance is a different issue, even when a techno artist has ripped something totally, it's very very rare that they would make a pile of cash out of it...
@ Shiva: That's a cool tale, sometimes signs are sent in the strangest ways, I had one last friday when my homie Bill Youngman totally rocked the Raumklang here in Berlin at his Tresor record release party, you guys here should really pay attention to what he's doing, rocked my world & I was totally straight :)
Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.
I realised a while back that it's something you can't stop, plus you got to be shrewd and realistic at the same time - in reality the people who are really into it will buy the records, it's always better to have a record than an mp3.. I think illegal mp3 downloads probably have more of an affect on Album sales rather than 12"s, so hasn't really affected me.. ok, it's theft, but what you going to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Francisco Scaramanga
but yeah, I think we are going round in circles here, some people making music who are feeling the pinch are shouting "Theft", some people who DL music for free are pulling up issues about sample clearance...
Conclusion: it ain't going to go away, so you have to work around it....
Exactly, bang on....Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
You might think that, but profit margins on small companies aren't that big. And lets face it, most companies that make music software are quite small. i.e. I'd guess 20 people or less.Quote:
Originally Posted by tOM B
Note that the only reason Emagic and Steinberg have survived is they have been bought out by Apple and Yamaha respectively.
Part of the reason for this is the high prices, which are a direct result of pirate software. If everyone bought it, the prices would come down.
Likewise, filesharing is only a problem when the owner of the tunes, yadda yadda yadda...Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
I see what you're saying DB, but the telling phrase that both you and Crime used here is "gets away with it"... you realise yourselves that it's wrong but you're saying since you can "get away with it" without being sued, then it's ok?
Well, here's a newsflash - millions of people are "getting away with" downloading mp3s illegally day in day out. Is that ok?
At the end of the day it's violation of copyright in both cases.
Just out of interest... do any of you producers expect non-DJs to splash out £7 on a vinyl because they like a certain tune?
Well, it`s not that simple.
As the use of samples when recontextualied into a different tune is fine.
However the US legal system pushed changes to essentially get more money for the labels who were very powerful.
I have a mate who has just completed a PHD thesis all about this, called The Greater Wrong of the right.
And it`s all about the morality and grey areas of sample clearance, so to be honest I think the example you site is debatable, as recontextualisation and creativity is being used. Unless it`s a blatant rip.
It`s not really the same argument.
Excellent Point Steve
Shahoul do the paper?
@DB: Oh don't get me wrong - I'm all for letting people sample whatever, it's all creative and (IMHO) it's obvious when someone's just ripping entire sections of someone else's work. I'm just pointing out that you yourself used the phrase "gets away with it", which implies you realise that it's not strictly speaking "right", to the letter of the law.
And its happening not the first time, all my releases were played and were on internet before they hit the stores.
HOW??? :mad:
This is 2 different issues.. it's a completely different thing to use literally under a second of uncleared samples compared to having a harddrive full of unlicenced music... it's going to hurt a musician a lot more if you download an artist's complete back catalogue, compared to if you sample under a second of their work which you then use creatively...Quote:
Originally Posted by TechMouse
Anyhow I reiterate, I'm really past caring about unlicenced mp3 downloads of my own work, it's going to happen, there's nothing I can do to stop it, welcome to the 21st century...
I'm not going to take the moral high ground and go around saying people are bang out of order for doing it, but on the other hand I accept that it is theft..
at the end of the day I find it very hard to believe anyone who is online these days is completely innocent, everyone must have downloaded an mp3 at some point... in the same way that everyone had copied tapes back in the day... Still innocent?
I'm sure everyone is guilty to a certain extent when you stop to think, and it does make me think, ok so those people moaning that they found all their music on soulseek, did you ever have an album on tape? that you taped off your mate? well, that's pretty much the same thing.. not wanting to rattle cages here, but just making the point that you can't have it both ways, you can't download an album or copy a cd off a mate on the one hand, then cry foul when you find all your own stuff on SS...
Again,
I think we're splitting hairs here and going round in circles.. there is nothing you can do to stop it... get over it... ;)
had an argument on nuskoolbreaks with someone yday regarding this. this was coming from someone starting his own label, and he's saying he wouldn't mind people selling his tunes on, and keeping a copy for themselves! he also said he was thinking of going digital and ripping his entire collection and then selling it on.
like you say, the end of underground music. people don't seem to be able to look more than a week ahead these days
I think new producers are going to have a very different attitude.
Its not the end of uderground music, its just the end of the way things were done.
Artists who have been selling vinyl through exclusive channels which had a monopoly on distribution are finding the change to digital distribution hard.
Some artists like crime are emracing it - after all, its here. Deal with it.
But the new-breed of producers who are just coming into there own now will have grown up with filesharing and regard it as natural. They will have different expectations from their music being released.
A lof of this is just the old way of doing things clashing with the new way of doing things. For the people just starting out - the new way is the only way that they've experienced.
I wish people would stop insisting that filesharing is sounding the bloody death knell for techno and underground music.
Its not going to happen.
So long as people love the music, love going out to it and people still love making it the scene will continue.
I wouldn't say I was embacing it as such, just more accepting that this is the reality of the industry these days... as I said before, if you can do a cracking live act, this is something that can never be stolen, as you had to be there to experience it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
I think a lot of people have blamed the download thing for a fall in vinyl sales when the fact is it's just changing times, there is a lot more choice in media these days, I mean in general, you think of what kids spend their money on now, DVDs, Computer games etc. The whole thing, not just music, has diversified so much that other things are attracting peoples money giving them less disposable income for music.. And there's not as much interest in techno music as there was 10 years ago when it was a really new fresh thing..
Techno is getting on for being 20 years old, and whilst I think it will always maintain a certain amount of popularity, it isn't going to have the buzz of the original early nineties explosion when we all thought it was going to take over the world and change everything... It has had a big influence on pop music production, and music on TV, Computergames etc, but the point is, it's very easy to scapegoat illegal downloads as the problem, when the problem actually is we have more choice than ever, and the demographic is no bigger. Obviously everone is going to feel the pinch when the market becomes bigger and bigger but there is in general only the same amount of disposable income, it's going to end up spread more thinly... And when illegal downloads are so easily available, people are less likely to spend their money on music, so that they can buy that new X-Box game..
It's just the way it's gone now, and why I think Live performance as an artist is even more important than ever... this is something you can never fully capture down the DL pipe..
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/5898/alive1le.jpg
Loads of the really big hardcore labels have got this printed on the labels. ^
Ok, so this may not be a direct OPINION to Henry's original topic and maybe more suited in a new thread but it has to be mentioned. UNFORTUNATELY this is just the tip of the iceberg. And deep down everyone on this debate, regardless of opinion, knows it, like it or not. Whether you benefit or loose out from filesharing and digital downloads, the fact of the matter is that its not going to go away. In fact its gonna get a whole lot more complicated. For starters, as technology improves, mp3's will be replaced with better quality and smaller files. In "X" amount of years the GENERAL populations need for "physical" formats will be obselete. We all love our music on here but you have to remember we are a tiny percentage of the global consumer market. Your AVERAGE person who pops into HMV to buy a CD once a month will not give a shit whether their music now comes in an invisible format. In fact, they'd probably want to rush out and buy the latest 10th Generation iPod to play it on and impress their mates and lo and behold, another convertee. Well, we dont need to look to the future to see this going on. How many pairs of white headphones do you see on the tube or trains and busses compared to just 1 year ago? Legal music or not playing through those headphones, its an invisible, digital format! Where will this leave the Underground artists, label owners, record companies and distributers? As Im writing this it makes me very anxious indeed. I don't like it, but what can WE do to adapt to it?
A French minister is under the spotlight at the moment for his comments on wanting to legalize flie sharing. http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=172512
IF this becomes legal, all the Soulseek, Limewire etc... servers will re-locate to France and trade legally! It probably won't happen but the fact that there is a proposal is scary enough. In the statement it mentions a flat, monthly subscription fee. Yes, a percentage of the cash will go to the artists (I hope) but you can guarantee it will be distributed amongst the Robbies and Kylies of the music scene and very little will get filtered down to the small fish. Even with a publisher/manager to collect this cash on your behalf, it will generate peanuts.
As things stand, SELLING mp3's online isn't proving very profitable for underground artists or labels (yet? - who knows!) Actually, nor is selling vinyl! (We are going round in a loop!) And its a bitter pill to swallow Im sure because its something that needs to be done to keep up with the market place more than something that is done through love. In fact, creating and maintaining digital catalogues takes up manpower and time. This dosen't come free.
And finally, Online digital sales opens up other questions for underground dance music. Would the mp3's be selling online if the original vinyl labels didn't exist? How quickly will we see the rise of "internet-only" artists? If the demand for digital sales makes it so that it would be a financial disaster to produce/sell vinyl anymore, what format will DJs choose to be the INDUSTRY STANDARD and could the artists survive on digital royalties? Could this create backlash to the club industry with all the djs trying to survive by means of a DJ pay packet, fighting for gigs, essentially diluting clubland more than it is already?
As I said at the top of this post, maybe this needs to be a new thread or 3.
Not sure if it really needs a new thread seeing as it's been discussed to death over and over again...
and personally I can't see real formats totally dying out because it's nice coming back from a record schop with a cd with a cool little book inside, or a record.. I for one will still buy records and cds if I like something enough as I'm sure other people will...
Why another thread or 3? Seems like just another excuse to repeat yourself over and over again with ill informed drivel til it's home time.. (This is not directed at anyone personally)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbugger
mate
i'm 36 , when i was a kid all you had was a record player
a radio and a tape deck.
casettes sounded hissy ( and shitty ) and flat in comparison to your records
and the ultimte choice was to go buy the record if you wanted crystal sound.
then along came cds.....
cds sounded wonderful and you could still tape them
but you couldn't record them onto anything other than a casette tape
and the difference of quality became more apparent than ever before.
then dats came around , but they were expensive and soon became the professionals choice but were dropped from most major hi fi's manufacturers ranges shortly after their arrival onto the market place.. cos no one wanted them and mosst people had just replaced their entire record collection with cds.
then the internet appeared , people began to get faster computers and cd roms came alone , then the cd burner and finally the software for ripping and reburning audio to get round the scms
( serial copy management system ) encoded onto commercial cds.
what we have now
is FAR more sophisticated than just taping your favourite album so you can listen to it on your walkman.
you can make digital copies , exact replicas of audio art , sell them , give them to your mates , do whatever the f@ck you want with them.
it is not the same era as the phrase " home taping is killing music "
you know why home taping didn't kill music?
'cos it was crap that's why
take it seriously , 'cos it's in your backyard too.
thing is though, there's nothing that can really be done about it... I know it's annoying, it's annoying that techno doesn't sell as much as it used to, but the pandoras box has been opened now and there is no going back... I mean look at what happened to Metallica when they started berating Napster.. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people lost respect for them, I'm not saying it's right that musicians feel they are being ripped off, but this is a sad fact of our times, sad in the same way that you don't have 5+ regular techno nights in London any more, in the same way that you have to wade through so much shite in the record store to find something good, and sad in the way that things are much tougher than they used to be..Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
you just have to work around it and try your best to keep your chin up....
i have to hold my hands up hereQuote:
Originally Posted by module
i don't clint eastwood would 've guested on our record if we'd asked him though.
i cant help think if everyone had of seen this coming they would have banded together & done something.
where as it happens to ppl one by one & they get pissed off as & when it happens to them.
point in case. i know a guy d'loaded Closer by Hawtin a month before it came out. he jus laughed & pretty much said '**** richie' but now its happened to one of his IDM heros he's gona ll anti-d'load. now, the same guy also cut part of a BMB live set to bits & played trax at a payed gig. when i pulled him about that, he jus laughed & said '**** regis & surgeon' but was still miffed about whatever IDM artist it was..
it seems ppl only having a passing interest UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.
which i understand, but c'mon.. this has been on the cards for sooo long.
ya either got to cut your promo list to only those you REALLY trust or jus accept its gonna happen. as handy as MP3 are, and as wide as Ableton & Traktor & cdj's are used, i dont think its gonna kill the sales of an established artist like Drummer.
Even though Mr. Established is saying here it is?
It never ceases to amaze me how people who embraced technology to make their sound are so frightened by where technology is moving. Sad indeed. Let's all throw the baby out with the bath water as we try to unrealistically force the world to conform to our comfort zone.
i stand corrected - i don't use any software yet and will seriously consider buying it when i need some :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TechMouse