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what, that artists can't afford to make music because of mp3's?... riiight. there's a bit more to it than that. how many times can you re-arrange a one bar loop and expect people to want to buy it is a good place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by networker
so are your sayin that the reason that sales of techno has dropped off is because most techno is shit :?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Komplex
Bahahahahahahahahahaha!Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
*GASP*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
"Damn it, Ma! Life was grand. The world was my oyster. I could make all this music and was free to do so. But, MP3 ruined it all and I just can't afford to do it anymore as a result. Curse you Fraunhofer! CUUUURRRRRSSSEEEE YYYYOOOOUUUUU!"
Honestly, anyone who could say with a straight face that they can't "afford" to make music anymore, rather than that they just don't feel like doing it, and blame it on MP3 is not anyone I'd consider a loss if they stopped. I'd consider them a ****ing crybaby who, for supposedly being so into technology, is unbelievably technophobic. **** em. :p
I`m all for MP3.
I`m against theft. Plain and simple.
Many respected people will just plain lose heart and give up. Some already have.
It is tough and disheartening seeing all your hard work get devalued, and it can easily tip you over into defeat.
Despite your words, and your rather callous comments, this is the way it is. The music biz is cold enough as it is. We don`t need it getting any colder.
So I take it then that you have paid for EVERYTHING you've ever used?Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
That's their issue. Piracy has always been around and isn't going anywhere.Quote:
Many respected people will just plain lose heart and give up. Some already have.
For every one artist that can pretend they can't afford to do it anymore, 10 will pop up of which at least 1 will have new innovative ideas. I'm not concerned.Quote:
It is tough and disheartening seeing all your hard work get devalued, and it can easily tip you over into defeat.
Despite your words, and your rather callous comments, this is the way it is. The music biz is cold enough as it is. We don`t need it getting any colder.
theres a bit more to it than this also, all waffle about rearranged 1 bar loops, another philosopher in the accusation department, maybee goes for some but not for all......Quote:
Originally Posted by Komplex
grant ya there are a few people coming through who are making some noise, but look what a cheap pc & cracked software has yeilded, an overkilled 95% bucket of tripe for a scene, and thats the same across all genres, ive lived through the cd age and it was great, but when piracy is so rife its tough to break even on an album tosser sorry "toscin" its pretty hard to stay focussed when ya day gig is an 8 to 10 shift seven days a week, which yeilds no more than a f*****g basic wage of a paperboy if ya lucky "we will se how long you last", were not the money hunters or we would be sold up years ago so the money attack pisses me off big time, you wanna be thankfull were still around recruiting the new blood and at least doing our bit instead of the other rats who are now probably bailed out into house and hip hop because sales are still ok there or better to a degree. i dunno about you but i miss the annual cd album release days of black dog, autechre, lfo, bockhum welt, there gone my freinds and i fear for good. to be replaced with what? a record industry edjucated on little to no forsight for what real digital destrucion will yield, i mean is your choice for a future "close enounters of the 3rd kind" or "pre set production of the disposable mind" . tosser sorry "toscin" its not analog over digital its not vynle over mp3, its about a little respect and contibuting to something you think worths contributing too..and not free riding your collection at the peril of othersQuote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
look at the class of 90 through to 96 the last proper analog years really with very very very little piracy apart from the swap dat thing the goa heads had going for a few years, is it really coomparable today? have we progressed? has digital been a saviour or a slayer? to a point its giving less choice for consumer beause me like many others are tired of going minus on some nice cd albums.
once again back its the incredible :clap:
Funny. I look at the cracked or cheap software as being responsible for some of my favorite tracks which paved the way for more. If it was for people using Tracker programs, a lot of stuff I enjoyed wouldn't have come to be. And people have pissed and moaned in the same way you have about that program. As music gets more popular, you're bound to hear things you don't like. That's just how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroes
Not my problem. I can work my day job just fine, survive and continue making music, amongst many other things. I'm just so sick of hearing people bitch about "piracy" in the same manner as the RIAA. Not surprising though. As music goes popular, it also tends to go corporate.Quote:
ive lived through the cd age and it was great, but when piracy is so rife its tough to break even on an album tosser sorry "toscin" its pretty hard to stay focussed when ya day gig is an 8 to 10 shift seven days a week, which yeilds no more than a f*****g basic wage of a paperboy if ya lucky
I really don't care. No offense. If piracy is killing someone, it simply tells me they haven't adapted to the times. Or, by chance, their target audience now finds them boring. Such is the nature of pop music.Quote:
"we will se how long you last", were not the money hunters or we would be sold up years ago so the money attack pisses me off big time, you wanna be thankfull were still around recruiting the new blood and at least doing our bit instead of the other rats who are now probably bailed out into house and hip hop because sales are still ok there or better to a degree.
Nope. My expectation for a future is simply some good music I enjoy. I don't really care to get anal over presets and such. If that aspect annoyed me, I'd have stopped listening to music that predominantly used a TR-909 or TB-303 many years ago. But, I'm still listening to it and still hear stuff I enjoy. I care not to over-analize "techno" music to the point of seriously bitching if someused a preset. Seriously, who gives a ****?Quote:
i dunno about you but i miss the annual cd album release days of black dog, autechre, lfo, bockhum welt, there gone my freinds and i fear for good. to be replaced with what? a record industry edjucated on little to no forsight for what real digital destrucion will yield, i mean is your choice for a future "close enounters of the 3rd kind" or "pre set production of the disposable mind"
What's funny is, I don't know too many DJs who are seriously into a label or music that simply pirate everything. Hence, I call bullshit.Quote:
sorry "toscin" its not analog over digital its not vynle over mp3, its about a little respect and contibuting to something you think worths contributing too..and not free riding your collection at the peril of others
Right. Because distributing mixtapes of other peoples' music wasn't piracy? Oh, wait. That was ok, right? It's just not ok now for some reason if it's on a computer rather than a cassette? Come on.Quote:
look at the class of 90 through to 96 the last proper analog years really with very very very little piracy apart from the swap dat thing the goa heads had going for a few years, is it really coomparable today?
Yes.Quote:
have we progressed?
From a creativity and distribution standpoint, it's been a savior for nearly every style of music I enjoy.Quote:
has digital been a saviour or a slayer?
Labels and artists give less choice to the consumer, not a technology that opens doors for people who want to see what's there. Seriously, I'm just getting tired of hearing all the different excuses that bag on technology in an effort to explain why some peoples' records no longer sell. Everybody needs a scapegoat I guess but I just find it incredibly ironic when "techno" artists or labels scapegoat technology.Quote:
to a point its giving less choice for consumer beause me like many others are tired of going minus on some nice cd albums.
quote: I really don't care. No offense. If piracy is killing someone, it simply tells me they haven't adapted to the times. Or, by chance, their target audience now finds them boring. Such is the nature of pop music.
piracy tells me they havnt adapted to the times? woowwwwww what a comment, no i dare say you dont care because your getting stuff for jack, great attitude, well wait and see when your jobs taken by the next technology. or even better still put ya self through college right code for a programme that takes years and then go and see your missed revenue on soulseeker, i think youll have a differnt tune to whistle too...great moral thinking way you have......or should i say its the new modern attitude....
quote: What's funny is, I don't know too many DJs who are seriously into a label or music that simply pirate everything. Hence, I call bullshit.
oh that makes it right then....because you only get 50% piracy
quote: Right. Because distributing mixtapes of other peoples' music wasn't piracy? Oh, wait. That was ok, right? It's just not ok now for some reason if it's on a computer rather than a cassette? Come on.
i would say thats a little bit different, how many people have you seen carving a career of others with a twin cassette player? piracy is yea out there but its been in the % you can write off as promotion or like a overhead, now its insane. its like a cancer, that in the long run will leave us in a sorry state......
quote: I'm just getting tired of hearing all the different excuses that bag on technology in an effort to explain why some peoples' records no longer sell. Everybody needs a scapegoat I guess but I just find it incredibly ironic when "techno" artists or labels scapegoat technology.
hellooooooo no ones records are selling.....
:love: I LOVE VINYL!!! :love:
Sad thing is.....when I move to Spain next year, I wont be able to take all of my vinyl with me, so I have to invest in something-like Final Scratch, so I can at least rip all my tracks to a laptop and take them that way.....otherwise, I'd be screwed :doh:
I am happy that I do have that option available to me though....and even when I do get Final Scratch, I will still support and buy vinyl from the local shops ;)
Yes. If people truly desire your music in digital format, and you aren't selling it in that format, thus losing sales, you haven't adapted to the times. Given the high amount of bitching about MP3 from pseudo-"underground" labels and artists that sound more and more like the lawyers Garth Brooks, if they haven't begun selling MP3s, it's their problem. It shows that they haven't tested the water and, yet, are bitching that it's too cold.Quote:
piracy tells me they havnt adapted to the times?
Actually, I don't pirate music. At least, not in the sense that you'd be bitching about. Like many other techno artists, I'm guilty of "sampling" here and there. But, then again, I'm not the one running around and bitching about the poor performance of my music in the market being directly related to piracy. I'm at least willing to admit that it's a small market that won't pay my rent. If that changes, great. If not, I don't care. The people that truly want it go out and buy it. Seriously, if you personally run a label, you must know quite a few DJs. How many do you know that have converted to only spinning pirated MP3s? I don't know one. And, yet, everyone bitches about sales. Hmmmmm. Is it piracy that hurt you or might it be the fact that you didn't stay interesting enough to keep a pop market from moving on to something different?Quote:
no i dare say you dont care because your
getting stuff for jack
If it is, I'll find a way to swim or drown. That's life.Quote:
well wait and see when your jobs taken by the next technology.
Right. I'm "immoral" because I disagree with you about piracy and digital formats. Get over it.Quote:
.great moral thinking way you have......or
should i say its the new modern attitude....
No. I never said it was "right." I just don't see the threat. Why do you give a **** if people pirate music who were never going to buy it in the first place? Seriously, for all the bitching you do about Soulseek, the general persona I've come across there is similar to a kid who collected bubblegum cards. They fluff their collection like a pair of peacock feathers and do little else with it. They never would have "bought" any of it in the first place and they aren't playing it in public. So, given that, do you get pissed if you come across a mixtape or CD from a DJ that has one of your label's tracks on it with no licensing? Which is worse? I just find it funny that, for as grubby as people have gotten regarding the MP3 issue, which arguably exposes them to more people than mixtapes would, everyone seemed to support the idea of "piracy" with mixtapes because that is how people heard the music. Oh, right, I forgot. It's because all of these people with MP3s have started monopolizing all the paidQuote:
oh that makes it right then....because you only get 50% piracy
bookings that DJs who bought the records might get. :roll:
I remember a lot of people getting very igly about people who had supposedly "stolen" mixtapes and gotten bookings. As for a DJ, you can downplay it if you want, but a mixtape was really the only way to start carving a carreer for yourself if you didn't already know somebody. So, feel free to tell me why it's ok to pirate music on cassette, but not a computer. I'm just trying to understand the logic here. At best, we have an accusation that too many people are DJing with stolen MP3s. Well, so far, I've never seen this happen. I'm not pretending that it doesn't happen. But, I don't see how it's happened enough to hurt any market for underground vinyl. Most DJs are record collectors and prefer more than a file they might lose. Every DJ I know still plays records. Ask them if they are buying the same records they did a couple years ago though. Maybe that's your problem? All I've seen, for the most part, is people trying to find a reason explaining poor sales that ignores changes in taste. ArtistsQuote:
i would say thats a little bit different, how many people have you seen carving a career of others with a twin
cassette player?
and labels "reinvent" themselves for a reason. Techno has shown an incredible propensity to sticking in a rut. And people think sales slump because of piracy? No. It's bigger than that. And if you don't accept that, you'll fade out of the picture and most people won't care.
Have you found a way to measure the piracy versus sales to even make this an educated statement?Quote:
piracy is yea out there but its been in the % you can write off as promotion or like a overhead,
now its insane. its like a cancer, that in the long run will leave us in a sorry state.
Good. This scene could use a little shock to its system. I'm more excited to see how people come out of it with new ideas, rather than hearing people bitch about how it ain't like it used to be.Quote:
hellooooooo no ones records are selling.....
I see what you're saying, and to a certain extent I agree. Short of the odd person coming and playing an Ableton set (where I'm pretty damn sure it's been 70/80% original material) I have never once seen someone turn up at Pure Filth and play entirely mp3s off Final Scratch. At most we only ever have one CD deck, and that doesn't get used much.Quote:
Originally Posted by tocsin
That said, however, I understand it's much more of a problem in - say - Spain, where people will play entire sets from mp3's burnt onto CDs.
quote:It's because all of these people with MP3s have started monopolizing all the paid bookings that DJs who bought the records might get.
i dont dj, through choice, so thats not really relevant to me or the argument, my argument or point on this thread is the problem with the piracy, its way out of control and even adopting your so called change through genres aproach isnt a real fix for piracy, "hold on hes made this killah track now lets buy it", i dont think so, change makes no difference what so ever in my honest opinion. Technology for me isnt the problem its attitude of just getting recogintion for the hours you put in...ok well report to work tommorow go staight to the boss and get him to deduct 50% of the rest of the years wages, because that is the scale of the effect. I have no hardened statistics via goverment reports but i can sure tell you by sales that were down to a quarter of what it was 24 months ago, and i think i voice for probably 95% of people in the industry too... All iam saying is the piracy is an issue iam not one who bleats about viynl is a holly grale format over its thin n bitty mp3 cousin. iam merely saying not getting paid will or should i say is having a mammoth effect on things like, software developers, labels, film, art. its all suffering......
i do have one statistic and that is the biggest selling age group for record buying purchases in the uk is 35 to 45 but since almost the dawn of the 1st music media it was 18 to 26. now is that because nothing so called new is being said across every genre in film, music & art or could it be a coincidence because they know where to get it from......?
i think we know the answer to that one
The whole argument that Tocsin is making is a little near sited.
The focus he is making is that it`s the techno "scenes" fault that records aren`t selling, due to stagnation.
The fact is the WHOLE music industry is in crisis due to illegal download.
Never before has priacy been so rife.
Now yeah yeah, I used to have mix tapes and whatever, tapes of CD`s. But if it was of stuff I liked, I bought it on CD.
I mean, I still do, I must be one of the few who still goes out and buys albums on CD.
But the point is, is that it`s much easier to get pirate stuff, anything you want, as quick as you want, and it is affecting everyone.
Why should that be acceptable in music and not in any other area of commerce.
You don`t walk into your local footlocker, and then walk out with your corp sucker Nike trainers on for free do you?
So why should it be so immoral for musicians to want compensation for their hard work?
To even think that the illegal file sharing of music hasn`t affected the whole industry, is not only naeive, but very stupid.
We are in a trnasition period right now, from solid product, to virtual product, but even when a full transition is made I think that the attitude of theft is ok, will still be prevailent.
Tocsin, your attitude sucks, and has no real merit. IT`s the kind of argument a teenager puts across.
OK, for the stats & facts hungry amongst you:
Legal music downloads have tripled worldwide
The British Phonograph Industry said the growth in legal downloads is already outstripping the growth in illegal filesharing
The average music fan spends just £1.27 a month on digital tracks, illegal downloaders spend an average of £5.52 on legal digital music
Ten million tracks have been sold via legal services in the UK during the first half of 2005
Various sources, all reputable.
I feel for the people getting burned over this, but people need to adapt, and fast.
Legal downloads is a booming growth industry. Labels need to get on it asap.
You may not DJ but you do run a label that sells a style of music that, with a token exception here or there, sellspretty much entirely to DJs, correct? You aren't going to fix piracy. And, as I said, I don't see piracy as a problem here. I see lack of adaptation. There is no one universal variable that will define your lack of sales. Tastes have changed in many different ways. You can either fight that or adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroes
Strange because your quote above is exactly how I work. It was the same with mixtapes. If there was a track on it that I wanted, I found it and bought it. Same goes for MP3. And since a good number of entities have offered previews of tracks which you can purchase digitally, Soulseek is not the place where I go looking for the latest released techno. Rather, it's where I get new music from personal friends that isn't released, or songs that are out of print. Neither cuts into any market.Quote:
"hold on hes made this killah track now lets buy it", i dont think so, change
makes no difference what so ever in my honest opinion.
If you feel that you aren't getting enough attention, it's likely due to the type of music you are putting out, not because people are pirating it.Quote:
Technology for me isnt the problem its attitude of just
getting recogintion for the hours you put in..
Specific entities are suffering. But they are merely variables in a greater whole. Others have found a way to make mp3 work for them. But, honestly, most of the bitching I see about piracy just seems like people in techno who can't get over the fact that they aren't popular anymore. Newsflash: For the most part, I don't buy any music coming out on the labels which I used to buy 8 years ago. The same goes for a number of artists who's work I used to buy. The same people that bitch about piracy also tend to bitch about how there is too much crap coming out. Like there is more garbage being released today than there was years ago that is significant enough to keep people away from record stores. Yet, somehow, I've still managed to find tracks by new and old artists that I enjoy and, when I do, if they are available for purchase, like most other DJs, I go and buy them. Losing popularity is not a crisis for the whole. It's a crisis for the entity.Quote:
have no hardened statistics
via goverment reports but i can sure tell you by sales that were down to a quarter of what it was 24 months ago, and
i think i voice for probably 95% of people in the industry too... All iam saying is the piracy is an issue iam not
one who bleats about viynl is a holly grale format over its thin n bitty mp3 cousin. iam merely saying not getting
paid will or should i say is having a mammoth effect on things like, software developers, labels, film, art. its all
suffering......
I couldn't tell you as I'm not that demographic. Being 30 and not purchasing significant quantities of music anymore, however, I can tell you that it doesn't have to do with piracy. Rather, it stems from the fact that I got bored with scene politics, over-inflated import prices, etc. Digital distribution via the internet has pulled me back more into the market in the last year than any record store with "save our scene" slogans did. To be honest, I look forward to vinyl's eventual death if things stay the same as they are now.Quote:
i do have one statistic and that is the biggest selling age group for record buying purchases in the uk is 35 to 45
but since almost the dawn of the 1st music media it was 18 to 26. now is that because nothing so called new is being
said across every genre in film, music & art or could it be a coincidence because they know where to get it
from......?
i think we know the answer to that one
Not exactly. I think there is plenty of good music coming out. But, the nature of the game has made it pricier and harder to distribute. I have no loyalty to any record company. In addition, I find some inherent hypocrissy in the messages being given out by people who used every single illegal shortcut they could to produce music in the first place, bitching about lack of sales which they blame on piracy. It's not a "scene" problem. It's an entity problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtybass
**** the industry. The WHOLE music industry is not vinyl or CD.Quote:
The fact is the WHOLE music industry is in crisis due to illegal download.
Again, proof? I see a lot of speculation. And Jay Pace just posted some stats that suggest otherwise.Quote:
But the point is, is that it`s much easier to get pirate stuff, anything you want, as quick as you want, and it is
affecting everyone.
Nope. Given their price and what they offer, I just choose not to buy them. The "industry" is merely to egotistical to believe for a second that they are offering something which a number of their earlier market just doesn't want anymore.Quote:
You don`t walk into your local footlocker, and then walk out with your corp sucker Nike trainers on for free do you?
Until someone can demonstrate to me otherwise, I don't believe it here. The "pirated" copies of my music have made it further than the pressed copies regionally. So, if I really cared to play off that with people I talked to and start selling mp3s online, it's only helped. People who wouldn't have otherwise known the music exists now do. If they don't hear it, there's no sale. If they pirate it, there still might not be any sale but it's no loss. The DJs who actually do play tracks of mine still buy the music. So, I don't see the problem. If less people buy, that's a sign of a failure on my part if I view merit through sales. Fortunately, I don't.Quote:
To even think that the illegal file sharing of music hasn`t affected the whole industry, is not only naeive, but
very stupid.
That attitude was the foundation of techno. Something that a number of thieves seemed to forget once the mainstream industry they supposedly rebelled against offered them a blow job. When you catch more people spinning pirated versions of your music, or can even count more copies of your tracks on Soulseek than have been sold, get back to me.Quote:
We are in a trnasition period right now, from solid product, to virtual product, but even when a full transition is
made I think that the attitude of theft is ok, will still be prevailent.
No. My attitude is merely honest. Honest in the way that "techno" once used to be. It places blame for lack of sales where it belongs, on the person producing and selling the goods. I hate to break it to you guys, but none of you are so popular as to have more people pirating your music than buying it. Most of the world hasn't even heard of you. Get over it and adapt. Live with the fact that a number of people really don't think you offer anything of any worth at all and, yes, they might even steal it and listen to it a couple times. It sucks, but that's life. Unlike a number of other egotisical industry hacks and whores, however, my head isn't so blown up as to view that type pirate as the majority and the reason why my niche market music didn't do so hot in a time period. If you think my attitude sucks, get used to it. It's the attitude of the general public and you are selling to them, not vice versa.Quote:
Tocsin, your attitude sucks, and has no real merit. IT`s the kind of argument a teenager puts across.
Jay Pace, nice stats, and you are right, its happening, so either embrace it, or die by the hand of mp3!
And I think Tocsin has some good points as well, and its not at all a teenagers approach, just a different opinion, but every bit as valid as the "digital music will destroy music" opinion, which I personally find laughable.
I mean come on - kill music? As if. The music biz has been through alot, and this change we are in the middle of is probably going to be the biggest one yet, but as always, those who have the love will keep doing what they want to do.
Also, I think Heroes said something along the lines of techno record sales being only a quarter of what they were 2 years ago. Well, as you said you dont DJ, so maybe you havent been spending much time in clubs, but I reckon average club attendance for techno nights has probably dropped by nearly the same factor. The only conclusion I can draw from those two factors are that techno simply isn't as popular as it once was.
Finally, I hate to say this, but anyone who has decided to make a living out of music is a bit on the foolish side. And if you take it one step further and try to make a living out of only making and releasing music you like, and never performing, then you are really living on the edge. Speak to most musicians who have made a living out of it, and they will have all sorts of horror stories about doing sessions for some shit pop band, chopping out a verse or repeating a chorus or otherwise changing their artistic creation to fit what a record company wants, having to wear certain clothes, etc, etc, etc. Not because they wanted to - because generally speaking that is what is necessary to make a living from music. And then there is the performing side, seriously now, how many successful musicians can anyone think of that dont do live gigs? Gigging is an essential part of music - in fact, its the most essential I reckon. You can guarantee that any famous band got where they are by busting their ass in pubs and clubs for peanuts. If the Rolling Stones decided they didn't like the spotlight and never did any gigs, would they be the mega rock star dinosars they are today? Absolutely not. And I dont see why techno should be any different from any of that.
History has told us the tale of the broke and bitter musican and repeated it over and over and over and over and over and over, the amount of truly great muscians that have died penniless is uncountable, because the answer is almost every single one of them! And I'm talking about GREAT musicans here, the beethovens and mozarts of the world, and lets be honest with ourselves, if people of that caliber failed to make it big off music, how can anyone else expect to?
I think the whole dance music thing probably made alot of people rich, but I just hope all those who made the bucks put them in a bank account rather than the usual rock star style piss it up the wall and bang lots of sluts, cause just like every other kind of music, eventually the boom ends, and then the backlash comes, and then those who reckoned things would be like the goodtimes forever end up like all the others who crashed and burned when disco went dead, or glam rock, or jazz fusion, or any other trend that came and went - they end up broke and bitter.
quote: No. My attitude is merely honest. Honest in the way that "techno" once used to be. It places blame for lack of sales where it belongs, on the person producing and selling the goods.
what a crock of ****
quote: I hate to break it to you guys, but none of you are so popular as to have more people pirating your music than buying it. Most of the world hasn't even heard of you.
you sound bitter to a point, have you been burnt by or had a record label go down or a shop get repossed.
quote: Get over it and adapt.
piracy allows no adaption, its there festering everything.....
Ok, my mistake, everything is peachy.