**format wars** vinyl ? mp3 ? cd ? turntables ? ableton ?

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Originally Posted by JimmySomerville

For the final scratch users.....


Is it possible using v1.6 or v1.5.... or indeed FS 2 to sync it with ableton? To allow you to drop loops over the top of tracks?

It would be easy to play the full lot in ableton but we're looking to do something with 2 decks and ableton running loops over the top.

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Some stuff in that direction can be done via the Ms Pinky Vinyls.

http://www.mspinky.com/jpgs/Pinky_Pluggo_Live.jpg

"Ms Pinky therefore provides a VST/AudioUnit/RTAS plugin version of her vinyl-controlled audio file player/scratcher, which we call "Pinky Pluggo". This exciting little plugin allows users of VST, Audio Unit, and RTAS-compatible host programs running under both OSX and WinXP to seamlessly integrate Ms Pinky into their music production software sessions... for the purposes of studio recording, or for live performance."

Read it up here:

http://www.mspinky.com/WreckedSystem_Pluggo.html

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Originally Posted by Miromiric

exactly! and one other thing, don't you hate all the music that's made with software these days. it all sounds so software. hardware or burst!:;

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I always find this sort of response funny. It's basically, "The new stuff sounds different than the old stuff!".

It's just another sound to get used to. Plus, stuff done in Ableton will sound as good as just about anything if done right. It just opens the door for people who could never afford all the different gear and software. I mean, you could use human-played instrument samples for everything and it would sound more organic than a real 909, no? People who produce the entire track using software intruments are the ones you're on about. I mean shiiit, producers of "real" music constantly slag electronic music using your same argument.

Plus, software production is ever evolving, and I'm confident that it will get to the point where differences vs. will be strictly imagined. It'lll be like the whole WAV vs. 320 rate MP3 argument that has never reached any real conclusion. The oldschoolers will argue that they can hear the difference, while almost no one really can.

well call me a diplomat but all the formats have their place. Live performance is unique, and so is dj'ing.

For me, I think Dj'ing is particularly suited to techno/electronic music, as it really adds the human element to the music, manipulating tunes on the fly and hearing a dj present the tunes in their own way is always interesting.

Personally I love my vinyl collection but have laid off buying much for a couple of years now, it has become a pain to store if nothing else....so it's cd's and computer music for my everyday listening of tunes.

shouldn't be a format wars, formats should compliment each other and offer a variety of ways of playing your music....cd's, mp3's, vinyl....all have their advantages......so all formats can be used together rather than one format becoming defunct.

i use all 3 .

decks awsome why ? you can be more agressive and more or less beat the crap outta your dance floor , love it always will.

cd j awsome agin for acuracy brilliant for effects tricks sampling etc but however you cant be agressive with them you have to treat them like a good women and be gentle and delicate ahhhh! bless.......

abelton great for perfoming your own music in a sort of semi live set anyone playing abelton with a set full of other peoples tracks dont waste my time pack your stuff and piss off outta this club.

there ya go all 3 are quality in there own way but all but 1 have a down side , which leaves me with my answer decks will always rule . but technology moves on and some of us have to bite our bottom tongue and get on with it aye!

this came to me a while back..

see all the 'MP3 is crap.. you can tell with the frequency blah blah...' well, in all the time i played records, not one person ever bitched about the crappy cheap detroit pressings i used to play.. the badly cut Trax records made from recycled vinyl.. never had a punter mention it..

yet everyone has been up in arms bout the quality of digital media... 'thats a laptop.. i can tell the difference..'

aye right ;)

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Originally Posted by module

this came to me a while back..

see all the 'MP3 is crap.. you can tell with the frequency blah blah...' well, in all the time i played records, not one person ever bitched about the crappy cheap detroit pressings i used to play.. the badly cut Trax records made from recycled vinyl.. never had a punter mention it..

yet everyone has been up in arms bout the quality of digital media... 'thats a laptop.. i can tell the difference..'

aye right ;)

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Bang on.

Is there even an issue any more?
Dave Clark made some comment about this in a recent interview that was surprisingly astute.

all i can say is that i can definitely see the difference between a mix recorded from vinyl and one from using some computer program.

your only fooling yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Aratron

all i can say is that i can definitely see the difference between a mix recorded from vinyl and one from using some computer program.

your only fooling yourselves.

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that might be more to do with how the set was recorded and what file type the mix is compressed to.

Evrytime i've seen an ableton set at a party or a club, the sound quality is better.

anyway, this belongs in the debate at the top, i'll move it

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

that might be more to do with how the set was recorded and what file type the mix is compressed to.

Evrytime i've seen an ableton set at a party or a club, the sound quality is better.

anyway, this belongs in the debate at the top, i'll move it

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i have heard one decent ableton set and that was by oldbugger at creative culture last christmas
i was full of flu and it still knocked my socks off.

i thought you was on about sound quality

Whenever I play PA`s people are always surprised by the clarity, and the presence, as well as the bass.

But then I have a larger frequency range to play with over vinyls restrictions.
And I`m not having to deal with all the top end distortion and....
blah blah

vinyl is a medium we got used to, and it had many restrictions, but we coped because it was easy to handle.

Most vinyl comes from DAT masters anyway, so it was digital at some stage.
Do we even need to be talking about this in the foul year of our lord 2007?

I thought everyone had all growed up now.

Two Thousand and bloody Seven!!

Where the hell is Judge Dredd, ABC Warriors et al.... eh!!?

The world needs an Excession to kick its bleedin' scientific arse into gear...

Come on, hurry up, I'm not getting any younger here!!:briggin:

The debate rages on all fronts... Still.

I'm another former vinyl addict who used 1200s for 7 years or so, then figured out that I could buy a little iBook, soundcard, and Traktor and things got way easier. I could just plug into the house mixer and manually beatmatch, EQ, chop, etc..

But that got boring, and it came time to evolve. Now I'm in the midst of learning Live and it has already given me the nudge I needed to start producing tunes. It's slow going right now, but every night I crack some new technique that ups the game.

I wonder if hardcore vinyl DJs consider the fact that NOT learning Live is actually holding them and the scene back? The transition from Live DJ to Live producer to Live live act is seamless, and it can only help bring new music into the world.

For the acid fans, try out Audiorealism Bassline 2. Run that thing through a saturator, distortion, reverb, etc. and listen to it wail. I know I wouldn't be trying my hand at Acid if I had to buy a 303. Too expensive and complex for me.

It does hurt, though. I have a heap of really good vinyl that I'm still selling, and it's slow going. I'm of the mind to mark everything down to $10 each and just sell what I can.

Times move on, and we can only choose to keep up with them or fall behind. It's too bad more labels didn't see the MP3 wave coming. The writing had been on the wall for ages.

haha i got one for ya:)

i love records so much and i dont want them to fade away 4 eva:)
and i dont think a lot of you do to!
about 3/4yr ago i got the chance to mix on cd decks i was wel buzZin coz i cud mix a tune iv made at home and bang it out to the ppl in the clubs. all good
i did think thay was made just 4 ppl like me to have that chance and mix ya unreleased tunes out there. it was ace:)

now im gutted records r goin out coz the feal of them and the buzZ you get from mixin records is ace!
cd decks 4 me r 2 ezy to beat match and has took the fun out of beat matching / the hole mixin thing. - do u no what i meen?

love live tho:) only when its your music you make, not in to ppl that buy mp3s then say thay r mixin live but its all matched 4 them on ableton! thats shit:)

Times r moving on, so y not have all things out there:)

hehe - keep records - thats what i say:)

Well I don't think it's one format over and above an other, they all have their place! I like to see a dj tear and it up with vinyl, but adding final scratch or cd's adds versatility eg you play yer own trax etc, but a live set / ableton gives new possibilities for sound manipulation.

Also, mp3's are great for the net, vinyl releases often add an artistic element to a release with the artwork etc....and then there's the subtle differences in sound of the various formats.

The more formats available the better!

The more available formats the better?

Not for the manufacturers thats for sure, for us? Im not so sure either. I love vinyl and i always have - i may not in the future though.

Here is a little report on DRM that has SOME bearing in all of this.

http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/a...in_the_dr.html

Jupiter research are a MAJOR player when it comes to industry analysis BTW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI

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Originally Posted by snooch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI

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What a wanker.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

What a wanker.

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No, a Guru.








i jest. but vinyl is better than everything else. Ableton=cop-out


*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

No, a Guru.








i jest. but vinyl is better than everything else. Ableton=cop-out


*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

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Where do you work?

Ableotn cop out?

Right im calling your boss at work and telling him you're naffing around on the net

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear:

Waterford in ireland!


Your for it now fella!:cheese: :cheese: :cheese: :cheese: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

:laughing: im buggered now!

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

Ableton=cop-out

*now stand back and watch the fireworks*

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Because it makes it so much easier, I think you've got to justify the technology.
If you use it to do something that would be impossible to do with vinyl, or even CD's, then I think that totally validates its use.

im not an ableton user myself, tell the truth i had my first real go this weekend, twas a giggle. i think, fair f**ks to anyone that takes a technologie and makes it their own. no one thing is better than the other, its about the artist that uses it.

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

im not an ableton user myself, tell the truth i had my first real go this weekend, twas a giggle. i think, fair f**ks to anyone that takes a technologie and makes it their own. no one thing is better than the other, its about the artist that uses it.

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Hoo-fucking-ray. Got there in the end. Kudos to Danny.

Can we close this thread now?

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

Hoo-fucking-ray. Got there in the end. Kudos to Danny.

Can we close this thread now?

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no. :laughing: silly moderator :mrmyagi:

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

no. :laughing: silly moderator :mrmyagi:

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i know what you're upto, trying to get the last word innit. so stop it!

personally I'm going mac book pro and serrato scratch - cos I live in OZ now and just can't get the vinyl I want.....I still want the randomness of mixing records but I need to be able to download tunes......does anybody know what is the best final scratch type software around now?

Serato is the best.

Made more for turntablists than final scratch etc but it depends if that's what you're after I guess.

It's also by far the tightest and I've never had a crash - seen people nosedive on final scratch though.

Buy it.

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Originally Posted by JamieBall

Serato is the best.

Made more for turntablists than final scratch etc but it depends if that's what you're after I guess.

It's also by far the tightest and I've never had a crash - seen people nosedive on final scratch though.

Buy it.

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Aye, its great for low speed motion.. FS falls on its arse when scratching compared to serato.

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Originally Posted by Dj-Richie-Parker

does anyone have any concrete figures on the sale of vinyl etc, or anything concrete to suggest mp3 will take over vinyl...

i know it would be hard to nail down evidence like that but mabey someone here has some deeper insight into sales etc..???

I know people are gona say "stop worrying" just enjoy your vinyl etc, but id like to quench some fears :paranoid:

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vinyl sales have dropped over 50% in the last 3 years or so.

Check out this from Gerd Leonhard

http://www.futureofmusicbook.com/mus...ing/index.html

its a big read, but well worth it. I dont guarantee you'll agree with it, but this is a speech he made at the recent AIM conference.

Keeping my eye on the ball here :;

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Originally Posted by Microdot

vinyl sales have dropped over 50% in the last 3 years or so.

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I think you need to qualify that a bit more jon. Do you mean Dance Vinyl sales?

From the BPI's site. It doesnt say about genre but clearly its about something other than techno... playing out with 7" records? :laughing: ive done it, but it wasnt much fun. lol:laughing:

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Label support for physical singles

Sales of CD singles fell, but there was a further revival in seven inch vinyl; annual sales have increased from just over 200,000 units in 2000, to more than 1m units in 2006. 7” vinyl sales were up by 12.9% in the first half, with the White Stripes' Icky Thump the best seller.

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Originally Posted by RDR

I think you need to qualify that a bit more jon. Do you mean Dance Vinyl sales?

From the BPI's site. It doesnt say about genre but clearly its about something other than techno... playing out with 7" records? :laughing: ive done it, but it wasnt much fun. lol:laughing:

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sorry.
I meant House, Techno, Electro and Hip Hop vinyl sales have dropped by at least 50% over the last 3 or 4 years.
couldn't really say about the other genres, don't really know any producers who do DnB, Hardhouse etc

I've mixed with 7" singles before, not much fun and the sound quality is usually shite too.
nowdays I don't use vinyl at all.
for no other reason than I like to pick fights with arrogant cocks who shoot off at the mouth but don't know what the fcuk they're talking about (as tocsin can no doubt confirm). i.e. vinyl purists.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

for no other reason than I like to pick fights with arrogant cocks who shoot off at the mouth but don't know what the fcuk they're talking about

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:lol: :lol: :lol: nice one jon!

well i used to say vinal (bit of a purist) i love my 1210,s and my vinal collection - they are a 90's icon and until 6 months ago i would have beaten any one up who said anything was better than vinal. however i have discovered djing on ableton with wav file from beatport. apart from the fact that the waves seem to have the tops cut off (damn limiters) it has freed me up to do so much more in the way of creative mixing.
so in short vinal is way cooler ableton free's me up to be more creative - i think the croud would prefer the latter x

At the end of the day it dosen't matter what format you use as long as the tunes you are playing are good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

very true darkmode very true. good mixing doesn't hurt either

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Originally Posted by josephjobling

apart from the fact that the waves seem to have the tops cut off (damn limiters) it has freed me up to do so much more in the way of creative mixing.
so in short vinal is way cooler ableton free's me up to be more creative - i think the croud would prefer the latter x

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they're exactly the same waves that are used to make the vinyl release.

vinyl purists are full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

vinyl purists are full of shit.

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Why? Theres no such thing as a vinyl purist, just people with a preference. Some folks just like the fact that you can touch, smell, see & hear the product. 4 senses involved for me.

I stopped buying records for ages there. Pricked around with mp3s in abelton etc but didnt enjoy it. Now im back buying again. Not a purist but I just love it. Nowt wrong with digital mixing & creativity but there is room for both. Thats why serato is great (but i dont own it or use it)

"Somebody was trying to tell me that CDs are better than vinyl because they don't have any surface noise. I said, "Listen, mate, life has surface noise."

John Peel

anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

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Originally Posted by massplanck

"Somebody was trying to tell me that CDs are better than vinyl because they don't have any surface noise. I said, "Listen, mate, life has surface noise."

John Peel

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Life has lots of things that I wouldn't like on my records.

Poo for example.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

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Thats true. But they do sound different.. not better or worse (unless its low q mp3). I just love the warmth of vinyl.. surely thats ok?

I have really bad tinnitus and digital usually has lots of highs which hurt my already ****ed ears.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

vinyl purists

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How about vinyl lovers? That's what I am anyway.
I dunno, the vinyl purist thing makes any of us that support and play vinyl, sound like religious freaks or hardline vegans or something (no offence to either by the way).
For me I have had no reason to change - if it ain't broke, don't fix it etc.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

anyone who thinks format is more important than music is basically wrong.

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Well, that might be true of a miniscule proportion of people that buy music - and I don't think you would find many of them populating techno forums like BOA or the likes.

vinyl lovers are not a problem. nothing wrong with loving something so beautiful.

vinyl purists on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

vinyl lovers are not a problem. nothing wrong with loving something so beautiful.

vinyl purists on the other hand...

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word.

anyone who tries to tell other people how to play or perform their music is basically a dick. same as anyone who tags the word "cheating" to anything to do with music.

about 20 years or so ago, a brand new type of music no one had ever heard before came along that most people referred to as "acid house".
there were alot of dicks back then that said that house producers were cheating cause they didn't know how to play an instrument but could still make a record.
times change, people don't.

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Originally Posted by Microdot

word.

anyone who tries to tell other people how to play or perform their music is basically a dick.

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I don't fully agree.
If I see someone play off Ableton and it's not half as good as that person when they were playing decks, why shouldn't I be honest and tell them the vinyl sets were better?

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Originally Posted by Sunil

I don't fully agree.
If I see someone play off Ableton and it's not half as good as that person when they were playing decks, why shouldn't I be honest and tell them the vinyl sets were better?

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but thats not the same thing at all. thats just giving your opinion on their perticular sets..

same goes the opposite way - if someones digital sets are better than their vinyl then say it to them..

but its a world of differance telling someone that what they play isnt valid because of the format.