The point of live PA

Ok before i even get started , let me just say this does'nt apply to every single live PA act , just about 99.9% of them

Can someone please tell me the purpose of live PA . Can someone tell me what is so appealing about a guy who presses play on a sequencer then turns knobs for 1 hour ? I commend people playing their own stuff people live PA to me just seems like a lame attempt of someone trying to be in a band.

WHat is so live about it anyways ? Most live Pa sets are more choregraphed than djs sets. If i had the choice to decide between which format of delivery is more pre planned and less spontaneous , i would pick live PA

The only real theory i have about live PA is that the individuals that do it have low self esteem and feel that a rack of effects units behind them makes them seem more appealing to the opposite sex.

And although i'm sure you do seem pretty sexy behind all that hardware , Spending the next 2 hours after your set putting everything away kind of steals the magic no ? lol


I can't stand live PA
If i want to see live music , i go see a band. Not some 4 eyed technology nerd pressing play on a computer. And for all the nerds that don't have glasses i apologise.
anyways my thoughts not yours

I disagree with this, a live PA can use a sequencer, but mostly only to sequence a loop, where each track has it's own instrument, and can be muted (turned off) induvidually, thus allowing a whole tune to be remixed and manipulated in real time, meaning a great deal of spontenaity within the performance.

This isn't always the case. Ableton allows audio loops to be muted/unmuted, and therefore doesn't need to run a sequencer (I think I'm right in saying this), but the loops are all presequenced audio from a computer sequencer such as SX (or hardware).

It would be nigh on impossible for the solo artist who has produced the music in the computer to be able to play the music in a traditional sense (ie with keyboards and v-drums etc), and so some sort of sequence must be used, so basically a loop is generally used and remixed on the fly.

Still, with that in mind, each set can differ emmensly between performances, with all the filtering and volume control that a modern setup allows, an awful lot of work can go into a performance, and it gives the performer alot more flexibility over the music compared to djing.

I will actually stick my neck out here and say that I think it could be the future of electronic music in general, but that's just my opinion! :lol:

Jeeeesus seems like U really have a prob with live...

A lot of what U said can b said also about DJs.
So lets set one thing straight, there is good and bad DJs/ lives... what do I mean with bad?... Press play on Cd sort of thing!

A good live can make a track sound very different, can be like a live rework/ remix of the tracks... That's the appeal, hearing something U-Nick!

Just like a DJ, a good one can make music with othe peoples records...

Z

i love live music

the problem with djing and live PA is that it is'nt live
TO me , playing pre made loops is about as stale as a 3 week old bran muffin.

PLaying a drumbeat is way different than pressing play on a drum machine. One is live , on is'nt . ONe is lame , the other is'nt .

Live Pa reminds me of a uk boy band concert where these flakes just sing over pre made pre arranged stuff. IF that is your idea of live well i guess i'l just shut up .

Live PA`s if done properly are just a far more intricated and more manipulated DJ mix, of the artists own music.
How hard is it to mix records together. DJ`s are sooo overrated.
The london squat party scene is FULL of very talented DJ¬s, anyone with time, decks, and commitment, can stick 2 records together.
A live PA is similar to a DJ mix, but with a DJ mix, all you can manipulate, is WHEN you make the mix, how long the mix is, and the eq of each record.
A live PA can do all this, but you can also change the order of each part of each tune, and treat each part separately with FX, filters etc.
I`d rather see someone, playing the sounds from their head, that they have made and are playing them as they think they should be played.
Than some other egotisitical Vinyl Selector, playing SOMEONE ELSES music.

this is an interesting thread.

both the topic and the replies.

i love the whole idea of live performance, even more so live improvisation.
Music created on the spot and influenced by the surroundings, and the reaction of the night.

to compair dj to pa though i think your missing the point, yeah it takes more knowledge and skill/talent to be able to perform live electronic music and do it well but they are both just as valid as each other.

Dance music target = club/event - for the producers to exist the dj has to exist to convey individuals work to an audience in a structured and as individual way as they can. [there so many djs agreed, but from a producers point of view thats so many possibile listeners and outlets]

but a live performance, well that doesnt need anyone else other then the performer and imeadiatly offers something a great deal fresher .

an individual artist/group can showcase there sound and message in an interactive and responsive way and in its entireity as apposed to small amounts of there sound appearing in someone elses set as a part of there individual vision.
I think theres a place for both the dj and the performer and with the amount of dj's around a performer certinly stands out more, agreed though if a performer has an hour of pre planned sequence and has set up all there relative gear for the night only to facilitate as the synth filter operator then its worthless but there is a great possibility to deliver something much deeper by a performer who is using his equipment to express themselves to an audience at that current time.

shawn rudiman.
this man makes the sh-t on the fly.

RichieV, you must have seen some bad livePAs...

would you prfer some dj standing there doing muscle poses and standing like hes on the cruxifix whilst "soaking up the love"?
at least PA's are your own music

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Originally Posted by RichieV

i love live music

the problem with djing and live PA is that it is'nt live
TO me , playing pre made loops is about as stale as a 3 week old bran muffin.

PLaying a drumbeat is way different than pressing play on a drum machine. One is live , on is'nt . ONe is lame , the other is'nt .

Live Pa reminds me of a uk boy band concert where these flakes just sing over pre made pre arranged stuff. IF that is your idea of live well i guess i'l just shut up .

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if something is being done in front of you that is a one off, or being created, then it's live, a dj mixing 2 records together is live imo, that same dj may mix the same 2 records together the following night and do something slightly different, this in my eye's make's it live

how would you feel if you saw a rock band

except that all the drums were triggered from a sequencer , the bass and guitar are actually comming from a sampler again being triggered from a sequencer , and then some guy behind it all making sure everything stays powered and turns the odd knob.

Why don't kids start electronic bands like they do with rock bands ? Is electronic music really that bad that 95% of musicians don't want anything to do with it ?

to be honest with you, anybody here that has been in a band, will tell you, how great it is making music on your own, not having to put up with constant fighting, moaning, arguing and general ego's.
People constantly feeling the need to stand there twiddling away on the guitar or bashing the drum's whilst your trying to explain something to someone :rambo: :doh:

There are 2 kinds of 'Live' performances imo

One is a Live mix - Dj's, Ableton users

The other is a live pa - The studio on the stage, mpc's synths and samplers. NOT PRESSING PLAY ON A DAT AND PRETENDING

Maybe you have only seen a fake Live mix not a live pa?

Some of the best performances I have ever see have been live pa's no shit. How about a live drummer in and amongst.

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Why don't kids start electronic bands like they do with rock bands ? Is electronic music really that bad that 95% of musicians don't want anything to do with it ?

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LOL

iv'e seen some pretty bloody amazing live pa's in my time, and to me, they are up there with the best concert's i have been to

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Originally Posted by RichieV

how would you feel if you saw a rock band

except that all the drums were triggered from a sequencer , the bass and guitar are actually comming from a sampler again being triggered from a sequencer , and then some guy behind it all making sure everything stays powered and turns the odd knob.

Why don't kids start electronic bands like they do with rock bands ? Is electronic music really that bad that 95% of musicians don't want anything to do with it ?

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well radiohead are arguably the best band on the planet. dont they use electronics?

electronic music is misunderstood. thats why most people dont want anything to do with it. i dont listen to electronic music for nothing.

why dont kids start electronic bands like they do with rock bands? i think your missing the point of electronic music.

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Originally Posted by The Divide

The other is a live pa - The studio on the stage, mpc's synths and samplers. NOT PRESSING PLAY ON A DAT AND PRETENDING

?

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but wether the artist pushes play on the sequencer or play on the dat , it still is pre programmed. It sure as hell is'nt any more live than a dj set. Why does'nt every producer do live pa ? They all have the gear , they all know how to do it . I think most have just realised the whole redundancy of it.

Every producer doesn`t do a live PA because it`s damn hard work to programme. Hassle to carry around the equipment, and some just wouldn`t know how to tackle it.
Comparing dance music to a band is ridiculous.
Most "live" bands are following pre programmed patterns. They are called songs. they right them, and practive them, and then play them live. Not really that spontaneous. Maybe they might string out the ending a bit, or the guitarist might change the solo a little bit, but these are a few parts of the whole. A bit like a live PA.
Only freeform live Jazz is truly spontaneous, and sometimes, complete arse.

Of course it`s more live than a DJ set. Do you have any idea what you are on about? or are you just goading?

Each part can be manipulated and changed each time the set is played, therefore each tune can be different each time. As opposed to a record, that is allways the same.

Personally, I don`t wanna play records any more. There are too many DJ`s. A live PA, when well crafted is so much more impressive.
I played at a big part last friday. And loads of people who had never seen a live PA were bundling into the DJ booth throughout my set, cos they had never seen one before. they couldn`t believe it, they didn`t realise electronic music could be played live.

As for forming electronic bands. Well, I can qualify to have a lot to say about this, as my history is the industrial scene, rather than dance music. I have played in a live electronic band before, and to be honest, it`s not any different in terms of output.
For a keyboard player to be able to accurately play a fast synth type bassline, as you would expect in dance music, just isn`t gonna happen. Therefore, Sequencing is necessary.
Same for Drums.

I am actually forming a techno "Band" but the basis will still be a rock solid midi environment, with SOME live elements, ie guitar, percussion and vocals.

As for the how would you feel if you saw a rock band, and their drums were programmed etc.
Well some of the best bands I have ever seen did just this.
Underworld: Amazing Live. they use sequencing.
Depeche Mode: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Front 242: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Orbital: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Prodigy: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
The Young Gods. The most amazing live electronic band I have ever seen. They use sequencing
Ministry, Throbbing Gristle, NIN, Cubanate, Chemical Brothers, PWEI, Sheep On Drugs, Nitzer Ebb, the list goes on and on.

the thousands of people who have seen and danced to this music, didn`t seem to bothered by the use of programmed sequences.

Personally I find it more impressive when music comes from one artist.
because they have to play the roll of drummer, percussionists, lead and rhythm melody, etc. Therefore they are mastering so much more than a Bass player, for example.

who the **** acan diss the chemical brothers live.. ha. step offffffffffff

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It sure as hell is'nt any more live than a dj set.

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Dj = 2/3 channels, mixer and the possibly an fx unit

Pa = Muti channel desk with each device's audio out going into desk enabling mute, solo, eq fx send via the aux, fading assigning. Synths can be played live, samples can be played in at will. Sure patches are usually pre programmed but parameters are not. Patches can be switched in and out at will. Samples can be switched in the middle of the track. Using a midi controller you can tweak parameters on the fx unit at will. You can mix elements of the track out. **** you could even play bits in as I have seen.

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I think most have just realised the whole redundancy of it.

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Why???

It's like Ian says, "You don't make it live so how the **** do you play it live?"

I really don't give a shit what people use or how they do their live pa as long as it sounds good. I will say that the more effort you put into making it spontaneous does make a huge difference on my approval rating, but it's not the only thing I look for. I've seen a bunch of performances where the music is great but there is nothing more than a laptop and a mouse involved. I've also seen or shall I say heard PA's in the same vein that were horrible.

Personally, the reason I like PAs so much is because you hear/play unreleased tracks, remixes, reworks, and much more. At the end of the day, if your live pa is truly impressive good things will come to you but it may take a while. The rest of the fodder will weed itself out.

The point of live pa is:

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unreleased tracks, remixes, reworks, and much more

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Also, not bagging dj's, but how many times do you want to hear the same old tunes over and over again?

Also, it is much more fun, sure its heaps more work but u get more out of it.

A live pa is often unique.

Most live guys actually care about the impact of what they do and the music they create and perhaps they want to convey it in a way they intend it to be heard.

Many guys choose live pa just to get their music heard.

I guess it comes down to the individuals. Its a personal thing. Unlike dj'ing, you don't just go out and buy two decks and a bunch of records. Thats quick and easy gratification.

Live PA is a journey of self discovery and a no bulshit real way to express your own ideas and art to people who choose to hear it.

You may not agree with this Richie but you have the choice don't you. You like rock bands so much? listen to rock. You like putting objects in your ass. Go ahead and do it. You like bacon and eggs for breakfast? thats fine too.

Choice.

DJ's are over rated..

Can i just ask, do you dj?? If you do, are you also a turntablist?? If not, then you cant really say anything about playing "Live" because that is the only way to play "Live" using turntables..

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DJ's are over rated..

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Heh...

I doubt whether, in the entire history of the world, have so many done so little for so much respect and admiration... :lol:

Live pa would be such an expression for me.

I really want to get into this. I really would like this hands on approach in being creative. It pushes music.

Making music in such an atmosphere, surrounded by equipment waiting to be manipulated...... utter bliss if you ask me

I think richieV is just mess'n with us. devil's advocate. gotta be...

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Every producer doesn`t do a live PA because it`s damn hard work to programme. Hassle to carry around the equipment, and some just wouldn`t know how to tackle it.
Comparing dance music to a band is ridiculous.
Most "live" bands are following pre programmed patterns. They are called songs. they right them, and practive them, and then play them live. Not really that spontaneous. Maybe they might string out the ending a bit, or the guitarist might change the solo a little bit, but these are a few parts of the whole. A bit like a live PA.
Only freeform live Jazz is truly spontaneous, and sometimes, complete arse.

Of course it`s more live than a DJ set. Do you have any idea what you are on about? or are you just goading?

Each part can be manipulated and changed each time the set is played, therefore each tune can be different each time. As opposed to a record, that is allways the same.

Personally, I don`t wanna play records any more. There are too many DJ`s. A live PA, when well crafted is so much more impressive.
I played at a big part last friday. And loads of people who had never seen a live PA were bundling into the DJ booth throughout my set, cos they had never seen one before. they couldn`t believe it, they didn`t realise electronic music could be played live.

As for forming electronic bands. Well, I can qualify to have a lot to say about this, as my history is the industrial scene, rather than dance music. I have played in a live electronic band before, and to be honest, it`s not any different in terms of output.
For a keyboard player to be able to accurately play a fast synth type bassline, as you would expect in dance music, just isn`t gonna happen. Therefore, Sequencing is necessary.
Same for Drums.

I am actually forming a techno "Band" but the basis will still be a rock solid midi environment, with SOME live elements, ie guitar, percussion and vocals.

As for the how would you feel if you saw a rock band, and their drums were programmed etc.
Well some of the best bands I have ever seen did just this.
Underworld: Amazing Live. they use sequencing.
Depeche Mode: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Front 242: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Orbital: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
Prodigy: Amazing Live. they use sequencing
The Young Gods. The most amazing live electronic band I have ever seen. They use sequencing
Ministry, Throbbing Gristle, NIN, Cubanate, Chemical Brothers, PWEI, Sheep On Drugs, Nitzer Ebb, the list goes on and on.

the thousands of people who have seen and danced to this music, didn`t seem to bothered by the use of programmed sequences.

Personally I find it more impressive when music comes from one artist.
because they have to play the roll of drummer, percussionists, lead and rhythm melody, etc. Therefore they are mastering so much more than a Bass player, for example.

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here here , talking sense again :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Camon' let's not all slag the djs... sure a lot have they're atitude and little work but the same can b seen in any craft!

A good dj can really "play Live" ... now I will agree there ain't that many of those...


Like said b4, and I do agree even a rock band is playing a pre-determined chord sequenced, with little variations here and there... so I doesn't look so much more that a good live PA!


Z

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

, I don`t wanna play records any more. There are too many DJ`s.

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I agree with a lot of what you said but I don't get this bit really. The fact is there are, indeed, too many djs - but most of them are shit. When you see a really good dj they stand out so far from the bad ones. That was one of the things that got me into mixing in the first place. That feeling of seeing a dj who is in complete control and the contrast between them and the run-of-the mill shit djs who are everywhere. The good ones really do stand out.

In regard to live PAs, the problem I usually have with them is that I tend to get bored of hearing an hour or more of the same producer's music. There's very few that I've heard who have the ability to hold my attention for that length of time.

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Originally Posted by Sam_Horam

In regard to live PAs, the problem I usually have with them is that I tend to get bored of hearing an hour or more of the same producer's music. There's very few that I've heard who have the ability to hold my attention for that length of time.

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Yes, this is a problem with the guys who stick to the one style throughout the whole set. I like to think there needs to be a direction and progression of themes.

When its the same thing over and over it does get boring.

as a producer, with live pa i think you can take more risks than you can making records. if you produce only with the intention of pressing records, you have to worry about whether or not a long line of sober people (record co, distributor, djs...) are going to be willing to spend money on it after listening to it over and over. but if you have only the dancefloor to worry about, where you have a captive audience listening for the first/only time, you can do almost anything you want.

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dirty_bass wrote:
, I don`t wanna play records any more. There are too many DJ`s.


I agree with a lot of what you said but I don't get this bit really. The fact is there are, indeed, too many djs - but most of them are shit. When you see a really good dj they stand out so far from the bad ones. That was one of the things that got me into mixing in the first place. That feeling of seeing a dj who is in complete control and the contrast between them and the run-of-the mill shit djs who are everywhere. The good ones really do stand out.

In regard to live PAs, the problem I usually have with them is that I tend to get bored of hearing an hour or more of the same producer's music. There's very few that I've heard who have the ability to hold my attention for that length of time.

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I`ve been playing for years and years, to a lot of people. I consider myself pretty good, I generally never cock up, and the crowd always seems to love it.
However, there is no challenge anymore. Playing records and blending in as just another DJ is not for me anymore.
I have seen sooooo many unbelievably good DJ`s on my years in the free party scene. Many of them are so much more talented than a lot of the Big names in techno. But it`s not the point, everyone wants to be a DJ these days, and I think there are enough already, and I think people have got a little bored with it, and maybe this is one (of many) of the causes of downturns in Dance music numbers.

More live music, I feel, could revitalise the scene.

I came at the whole techno thing a different way , i never wanted to be a dj , i started producing and making tunes 5 years before i bought a pair of decks, allthough i have decks at home there is no way i would consider myself a dj. I dont know what to call myself really (no not cunt) as i only really do live pa`s and dont dj at all , not in public anyway. If there is a dj on and i am in the crowd i am never interested in who is playing , it just doesnt bother me , i dont care (as long as they dont clatter it all over the place a good dj should be seen and not heard) but if its a live pa i am allways interested to see whats up . A friend of mine and i have started to
mix the two together with him cutting beats and mixing the odd bits into my tunes from decks and a mixer and sometimes playing a tune off vinyl while i add some percussion or whatever over that. Its great fun and seems to be working well. i am playing whatever i would play and then he is taking it through his mixer and ****ing around with filters eq and stuff and mixing it with another tune doing cuts and stuff .

A good Dj is exciting just as a good live!!

Saying u don't wanna b cause there is 2 many does not make much sense 2 me... I Dj because I luv it and I need it like a drug, can b 2 my 4 wall bedroom or in front of 15000 people, I get lost in music ( :doh: ) that's the only thing that matters 2 me... Luckily I feel that in the studio and also in front of decks... but I believe In taking loads of risks 2 make it unick and personal!

Z

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Originally Posted by DJ Ze Mig L

A good Dj is exciting just as a good live!!

Saying u don't wanna b cause there is 2 many does not make much sense 2 me... I Dj because I luv it and I need it like a drug, can b 2 my 4 wall bedroom or in front of 15000 people, I get lost in music ( :doh: ) that's the only thing that matters 2 me... Luckily I feel that in the studio and also in front of decks... but I believe In taking loads of risks 2 make it unick and personal!

Z

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yer right of course , as long as its good its all good :lol:
i didnt mean to diss dj`s in my last post , im just jealous coz i cant mix a drink let alone two records together :shock: ;) :lol:

lol no prob... just setting the record straight... I luv mixing on 3 decks (sure I fuc* up a lot) but it makes me feel that I can build and shape trackz!!!


:oops:


Z

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Originally Posted by professor

shawn rudiman.
this man makes the sh-t on the fly.

RichieV, you must have seen some bad livePAs...

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True I've heard some wicked shit from this man

and

someone told me he can do the most interesting and appealing PA for about 5 hours!!!

I saw Shawn Rudiman do livePA along with Claude Young at a pre-party for this last DEMF (movement2004). quite an exciting set by both, and I was amazed to see him tap the beats in on the fly and then just jam it in...

my sets are 100% live. there is a sequencer, but all it does is clock everything.

i have about 70-80 assorted loops over 6 machines which i have to change & mute & eq manually. its live...

how do u feel about laptops then ?

laptops is cool...maybe not as spontaneous as reaching and twisting a knob live? i dunno, never used a laptop live.
I have both. hardware and a G4. I prefer the hardware for jamming and writing a song, and the laptop for actually tracking everything out and applying fx, bouncing a song to audio, etc.