Face the challenge

I hear so many artist I respect, treading water, creatively.
Very few people take risks now. And with sales so low, and people crying out for something different, now is the time to take a risk.
What is there to lose?
I`d like to hear all producers taking more risks with what they put on their labels. You can still have your commercial tunes, but how about really pushing yourselves musically, and making something different?

I`m gonna put my money where my mouth is, and have a new musical project on the go, that I am gonna sink my own cash into.

But how many others will start to poke their heads above the parapet?

It`s starting to happen already with some producers, so their is hope, but how long will it take the main body of techno producers and punters to accept and embrace diversity?

Even with Dj`s I see the same thing happening.
the same type of records played together. Like a drone of constant pitch and volume.
The Dark and experimental DJ`s (not all) who are appearing now, are thinking they are breaking the mould, but they just end up playing the same few Surgeon, Regis, Makaton, Kennedy etc as their peers, so once again you get this niche effect.

Where is the diversity? The genuine courage to stand out from whatever peer group that person is in?

I`m not moaning, I just want to start some kind of discussion, and maybe inspire some people to post some genuinely stunning, memorable mixes or tunes or whatever.

I genuinely agree.
I also believe this will create a need for more musicality in techno and force people to go above what they know(recipes).
Most techno producers are not classicly trained musicians but what if they pushed themselves to be?

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

Most techno producers are not classicly trained musicians but what if they pushed themselves to be?

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Yeah, that would make sense. Y'know when you hear of Joel Mull, Vath, Matthew Herbert etc. who are "classically trained", it kind of creates an impression as if it were born into their blood (well, it's probably easier to learn early in life), but the fact is many of these people have trained and actually learned their trade in many senses, besides being very good at what they do. And before someone tells me Vath has co-producers, ok! I'm just using him as an example ;)

Classical training is one thing, however classical training in particular may not be necessary for all, depends what suits certain people best.. be it learning the drums, guitar, keyboard or whatever.

I don`t even think this is necessary.
You can learn by listening.
You can be musical without being able to play an instrument, that`s the whole point of electronica.
But not enough people listen and learn from any other source other than techno.
It`s very easy to just look at other techno, when producing, and say, "ok, what would normally come next?"

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I don`t even think this is necessary.
You can learn by listening.
You can be musical without being able to play an instrument, that`s the whole point of electronica.
But not enough people listen and learn from any other source other than techno.
It`s very easy to just look at other techno, when producing, and say, "ok, what would normally come next?"

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It may not be necessary, but to give you a better understanding of the notes and scales you are playing on screen, or how to get the best out of your new supa doopa midi keyboard it can do no harm. Likewise for percussion, basic knowledge of drums would surely not be a bad thing. These are all added tasks if you have the time to invest on top of making music too.. at the end of the day creativity and intuition takes over, although a bit of basic training is surely preferable to none if an individual could do with it?

Oh sure, I would encourage anyone to learn anything they can musically.
I myself play the drums to a high standard, and then learned keyboard and guitar to a basic. I wouldn`t say it was absolutely necessary, but it certainly helps to be able to play an instrument, or learn some musical theory.
But even then, I learned mainly by listening.

but then to totally contradict myself, I would say a lot of techno producers could do with learning some musicality.

Err, so, I`ve lost the point now? :doh:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

You can be musical without being able to play an instrument, that`s the whole point of electronica.

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The *whole* point of electronica? How did you work that one out? Are you saying that electronica is based on being able to produce without instruments?

Oops, maybe this topic is turning into a head twister, it's too late for all this :)

ok, maybe not the whole point, but it is the beauty of it.

I make electronic music, not just "techno" and I was classically trained from the age of three, and I can honestly say it has absolutely f*ck all to do with it.

Anyway, I agree with your initial post Dirty Bass, its a shame that a lot of labels think they have to play it "safe" by putting out the same old sh*t, when they could be experimenting with similar sales returns. However, it would be more feasible if people forgot about distribution companies altogether. Sales aren't going to recover, and having "an extra mouth to feed" isn't going to help small labels or distributors to survive.

I can't imagine anyone making techno to feed the family unless you are djing and paing to go along with, but that is besides the point.
People have forgotten to come with something new and fallen into formulas.

...or is there to many formulars in the first place, instead of techno, house ect we now have a million and one sub catogories. I agree totally with the theme of the thread, but as soon as you come up with something new, someone will pop it into an already exsisting catogory and it no longer becomes new, but more of a variation on a theme.

I don`t really think it matters if people decide to pop it into a category, it only matters when everyone starts emualting that one tune, or sound, all the time.
I mean, everything (so they say) has been done before in some way, but there`s no excuse for blatant and lazy pandering to a particular sound.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I don`t really think it matters if people decide to pop it into a category, it only matters when everyone starts emualting that one tune, or sound, all the time.
I mean, everything (so they say) has been done before in some way, but there`s no excuse for blatant and lazy pandering to a particular sound.

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i see what you are saying. i dont think it is laziness though, well not totally, i think producers make tunes that are likley to sell...i.e. a simular sound to what is big at the time, i think its hard these days to try new things because as you know sales arnt doing well, so i think this makes it a little harder to experiment :?:

lately i have really been thinking of a new way to produce my tunes, well not a new way but a new outlook on how to produce them...my usual style is not bad at all, but its nothing new and this is where i 'm going to start being lots more experimental in the studio and get rid of all my usual methods of producing and try n come with something still pumpin but lots more experimental...i can defintaly see where you are coming from though steve... i have been thinking simular things myself :crackup:

I think techno does need to pay a bit more attention to actual musicality and structure, everyone seems to have beats sussed, but the tunes that really seem to grab my attention have a deeper sense of musicality, instead of just the loopy stuff. This hasn't always been the case tho, so maybe it's just me gettin older. :lol:

Things like chord changes need to explored and exploited more, and not just a basic minor scale structure, but also wierd variations that shouldn't but do work. It doesn't necessarily have to sound cheesy, and imho it makes for a much better listen.

I'm not saying this hasn't already been done, cos it most certainly has, but I mention this because alot of techno that has appealed to a wider audience has had a bit of this sort of musical structure to it.

And I personally am all for walking the line between me being happy with a tune I've made, and making as many other people as possible happy with it as well.

I think it's all about looking for as many possible ways to use and abuse musical theory in order to make a more appealing piece of music

you do get the occassional record that does that...the first conceiled project record adam beyer did for svek is a great example of using musicality and atypical melodic progressions in techno. i do agree we need more of this.

as for training...i played jazz guitar for 7 years in combos...i think learning to improvise and make music on the fly has shaped many of my strengths as a producer, though it's also underscored some of my shortcomings (such as hating the process of arranging music).

so i don't know. maybe "musical" training can be both a good and a bad thing, depending on how it plays out.

I think if u can improvise mate, that has definitely gotta be a feather in u're cap, that sort of stuff is really good to unlock musical creativity and stuff.

That's another point - musicality, the same as production, is an art form, and very few people are gifted with this from birth. It's all about pickin it up and gaining confidence, I learn't classical and contempry theory at a Saturday music workshop that me parent's got me into, but only on a very basic level and at a very early age. At school, I was left on me own to tinkle round on the Juno 106 when everybody else was playing on casio's in groups (because my teacher had been the one to teach me at the Sat workshop).

I think without this background all this equiptment I'm sittin in front of now would have been a hell of a lot more scary when I first bought it, and the learning curve would have been alot steeper.

Now I've got me production sussed(ish), I'm goin back to what I learnt years ago and trying to take that base level of knowledge and expand on it, so's I can make stuff that sounds more interesting/better/like nobody else.

So I'm only startin out really, but I have walked a little way down the path I've chosen, and that does make things much more simple for me.

I think alot of producers try to be musical, but those that are do stand out, just the same as any other musical genre. Now they maybe trained, or play by ear, or whatever, but I can't help but thinking that most of them, somewhere along the line, have had a bit of help in unlocking what knowledge they've got.

i think probably what's more important than having classical or jazz training is listening to those forms of music, especially avant garde and modern variants. i mean, listen to cecil taylor or steve reich and tons of great ideas that are applicable to techno will become clear.

Very good point, u don't understand anything unless u soak it up a little.

But u gotta remember that knowing things like scales, the difference between a major, minor, basic chord structure etc is definitely gonna help when saying to yourself "how's that riff put together?". Ok, once u've got a feel for the music u wanna make, then it's all down to creativity.

I'm talking more about people wanting to start making music, cos anyone can pull up at a keyboard and, if they're creative, create an absolutely killer bass riff or whatever, but the same person with a bit of theory behind them can say "hey, that sounds f@#*n great, and ahh, that's because of x/y/z", and can carry that info on to other parts of the composition, and other tunes.

i try to add some sort of musical structure to my tracks, i dont even know how to play an instrument, nor do i know the whole music theory..........i just play it where it sounds good haha

i sort of agree and i don't
i think you guys are losing the plot sometimes when you say
techno needs to be more diverse.
it is diverse...it's just that you can't look at one producer to find the full spectrum you have to check out everyone , and think to yourself , do i like it , and can i play it?
for instance does surgeon ever play acid? probably not . but laurent garnier playes breaks , hip hop , rock , elctro , house.............and he's a techno guy.....isn't he?
also , mixing and matching different styles in a dj set is cool , but that can piss people off , some people LIKE it to be a constant drone , that's the bit they are getting into , the hypnotic effect of it.
i think hypnotic music gets a bad press here , i like it when things get heads down and thumping , and i don't like it when some clever trousers dj trys to be all weird and ****s up my buzz by playing electro or somehing that just doesn't "fit"
it's all about taste istn't it? i agree techno parties could be more eclectic and dj's could be more original and choose more unusual records to mix sometimes , but you have to remember peoples livelihoods are at stake.
and steve you are totally wrong about having nothing to lose.
now is the time when we all have everything to lose.
i say concentrate on what you are good at , try to be original in everything you do and at some point your own mind and hard work will show you the way
don't try to force the issue , unless you have a really definate idea of what you are going to acheive.
we are held back by the fact that people on the whole are reluctant to change and you have to take that into account.

also just out of interest
some questions , do we need::

1. better rythms? ( less 4x4)
2. more melody?( no cheese obviously)
3. more stand alone type tracks? ( more of a song type structure, more memorable)

4. darker?
5. harder?
6. more dj friendly type tracks

and also what is the most overused thing in techno in your opinion?

the list goes on for ever
i'm gonna put the cat amongst the pigeons and say that the techno thats around now is great, in fact it's better than it has been for a while
i've got a bagful of records that all really sound interesting and different and are within my style , so what are we actually talking about?
is there a personal thing in there , perhaps , or a more specific genre?

Nothing personal, I`m trying to shake things up a bit, I`m not saying I`m right, at all, I`m a poncey arteeest at heart, so I may look into things a bit too deep.
I`m not saying people should stop doing pure dancefloor trance (and I mean trance inducing, not digga dah music), but it would be nice to here labels with more of a mix from the artists.
A commercial track, and hard one, and something different.
There is a lot of goo dstuff about, but also there is a lot of stuff that sounds the same as it did in 99.
And you can be diverse in your mix sets, without totally killing the buzz, you just have to work the mix that little bit harder, and choose when you do the mix a little more carefully.
Obviously, wacking some henry mancini straight after a hydraulix record might kill the buzz, but you can still keep diversity in a set, with flow.

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Originally Posted by davethedrummer

1. better rythms? ( less 4x4)
Yes but 4/4 is so dope when done right
2. more melody?( no cheese obviously)
Agreed
3. more stand alone type tracks? ( more of a song type structure, more memorable)
Definitely
4. darker?
Objective question
5. harder?
Depending on definition
6. more dj friendly type tracks
The more skill the dj has any track is dj friendly
and also what is the most overused thing in techno in your opinion?
loops tee hee but we love em.

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Originally Posted by davethedrummer

do we need

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1. better rythms? ( less 4x4)

i really don't know. with techno it seems to be either 4/4, electro or stuttered style. a breakbeat style track just doesn't make good techno. so what other kick combinations are out there? hmmm... perhaps it's the fact the 4/4 kick needs to be further forward in the mix or set further back. what i DO think though, and i get this from my detroit roots, are that the hi-hats need to be alot more intricate than just offbeats..... the bass needs to say more.

2. more melody?( no cheese obviously)

wow, another great great question. i think melody was brought into the clubby techno thing most with the swedish bassline elements and then it's developed. then the electro thing brought it in too. melody to me was never techno, but short musical notes such as Model 500's 'No UFO's' or 'Interference', was a way of using melody in a 'spacey' type of way that really worked. really now, we've had melody for years. i can't see us coming up with new melody combinations. i really cant.

3. more stand alone type tracks? ( more of a song type structure, more memorable)

but that's what techno never was - song structure. start doing that and you get dj hell electro. or a really cheesy techno track???

4. darker?

it's been done.

5. harder?

its been done.

6. more dj friendly type tracks

how many of these have we got?? :)

and also what is the most overused thing in techno in your opinion?

techno is the most overused thing in techno ;)

but we still love it :lol:

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

but we still love it :lol:

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well said mark, bring it all down to this "WE STILL LOVE IT"

no matter how its made

1. better rythms? ( less 4x4)

Yep, look at any way to improve the experience (shuffle, broken etc).

2. more melody?( no cheese obviously)

Definitely more melody, it can be done as euphoric (for this don't read cheesy, I've heard it done properly many times), or as dark and nasty as u like, sugar to taste. Check Dustins opener to his live set Evolv, Belgium, 2003, and then tell me we haven't got a bit to do with melody yet. And look at what Fernando does.

3. more stand alone type tracks? ( more of a song type structure, more memorable)

If by this you mean with an intro and outro, carrying the listener from one lower plateu to a higher one via various levels of energy and even mood, then yes. If you mean verse/chorus/bridge/vocals type traditional structure, I'm even hearin that done within the techno fraternity. Check Slam's new album, Year Zero, done to good effect in a few tracks (and the album's sellin as well), although some of u might not class this as techno :lol: .

4. darker?

If u like..

5. harder?

If u like..

6. more dj friendly type tracks?

Well alot of none techno dj's will not buy techno cos the bass comes in straight away, and the tracks are not very easy to read (as in when things are gonna happen). I personally put an intro into all tracks I do now. The techno dj's may find all this loop techno great for three deck mixin and such, but I remember when I bought my first Purpose Maker (when I used to dj Chi house), it's sounded great but also seemed a very scary prospect.

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Originally Posted by davethedrummer

i sort of agree and i don't
i think you guys are losing the plot sometimes when you say
techno needs to be more diverse.
it is diverse...it's just that you can't look at one producer to find the full spectrum you have to check out everyone , and think to yourself , do i like it , and can i play it?

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i think you make some good points but also miss the essence of what a lot of people here are griping about. techno has a lot of subgenres which are different from each other, but few really go out and touch upon outside music and the outside world. or even other subgenres of techno!

this is what i think, boiled down...

techno needs to:

a) become less fragmented
b) incorporate a more diverse set of musical and emotional influences

hearing someone spin a lot of different types of tracks is a good start, and i'd love to hear more of that when i go out...

...but i really like hearing new tracks come out that challenge my sense of what techno is and what it can achieve musically. i love secret cinema's revenge of a nerd because it does that. ditto some of the more daring swedish records coming out around 1998...particularly adam beyer's conceiled project on svek and cari's mr. barth records.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

techno is the most overused thing in techno ;)

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:clap: :clap: :clap:

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

techno is the most overused thing in techno ;)

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True Story
http://957jamz.com/images/jocks/lilhomie.jpg
Word

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it is diverse...it's just that you can't look at one producer to find the full spectrum

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hmm, so it`s ok to be a one trick pony?
As soon as you step out of techno and look at other artists in other music, they have the ability to be diverse within their field.
For a weird example The Streets, or Bjork.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I hear so many artist I respect, treading water, creatively.
Very few people take risks now. And with sales so low, and people crying out for something different, now is the time to take a risk.
What is there to lose?
I`d like to hear all producers taking more risks with what they put on their labels. You can still have your commercial tunes, but how about really pushing yourselves musically, and making something different?

I`m gonna put my money where my mouth is, and have a new musical project on the go, that I am gonna sink my own cash into.

But how many others will start to poke their heads above the parapet?

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what about truesoul steve? beyer put out that album and it got licks. i didn't love it but i bought it cause it wasn't your everyday shit doubt i even ever played it.. are their consumers like that out there? **** no. no matter what.. there is an political art economy here that cannot be ignored (in regards to producers taking the risks) and the consumers want what is not artistic; they want what boring, past their prime and lazy producers and co do. drug kick recycle. the nature of productive culture must change.

this is such an old rant laid out so many times before.. i bow with sincere respect to you to let people know that you are brave and that you are accountable for your emotions through music. bravo mate.

Thanks Steve you've just given me some spark to try something I normally wouldn't on my next project...

:clap: :dance:

-John Vella

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3. more stand alone type tracks? ( more of a song type structure, more memorable)

but that's what techno never was - song structure. start doing that and you get dj hell electro. or a really cheesy techno track???

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Or something like Underworld or Orbital (though the latter generally lacked TEETH imo).

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Originally Posted by Adverse

what about truesoul steve?

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good call. just about everything they've put out is interesting in my book...

I think underworld are a good example.
They were never cheesy, some of their stuff got caned, like born slippy, but it was very different to what was around at the time, and they were never affraid to experiment.
And they generally just did what they felt like.
Also they were part of the artistic collective Tomato, so they had a lot of creative people around them.

Marz make great genre-busting music, though it's more influenced by techno than actually being techno...

A couple of thing have stood out to me in this discussion -

Less 4/4 - I often think that, but then when I'm lost on the dancefloor it's the hypnotic stuff that really does it for me - and like Dave the Drummer said it's annoying when someone starts to be all weird and **** up my buzz.

The melody Idea is something I've tried - or rather chord changes - putting tension in with subtle pads and stuff bringing in 7th and sus4 type chords like you would in a guitar piece - sometimes works, sometimes goes cheesy.

For me techno's always dancefloor music and certainly in a club the simplicity and drive is what does it. I think you can still get that with a complex rhythm and really thinking on how the different parts interact, which sometimes seems to be done in a simplistic way - I'm not quite sure how I'm trying to explain this, but imagine classical music where you may have a fairly simple chord progression, but different parts of the chord are played by different instruments at different times.

Having said some of this I went to a psy-trance night on saturday and one DJ - don't know who - was playing quite hard kind of psy stuff with lots of wierd rhytms, messing around -what would have, had it been the night before, when I was out dancing to techno would have "**** up my buzz." And I loved it. I think it's a mood thing - for a saturday night when I'd had a friday of hard nasty stuff and was just wanting to launch into a full on weekend of sillyness with my Girlfriend it worked - Would that kind of wierdness work in techno??? Don't know...

I think there's always room to push boundaries and always room for innovation, but I also think theres space to stay at least some of the time with what we know. I do like a mix though that starts off with more obvious stuff and then slowly introduces more different things...

4X4 will always be perfect for techno when you learn to work around the kick. The beat itself is just the foundation. It's whats between the beats that makes the tune. Take Herbert for example (sorry, non techno). He sticks to the 4x4 formula but works with it and finds ways to emphasise everything else while the 4x4 structure remains in place.