Vinyl is its days numbered?

So what does everyone think - digital music has been around for probably almost a decade now - but has only really taken off in the last half of that. During that time we've seen hybrid technologies like Final Scratch rear their heads.

But will the next few years see the end of vinyl? I think so, the machinery needed to make it is expensive, the process and materials are expensive and as much are people are casting around as to how to distribute digital music, the cost savings are massive. One downside some people will say is quality, and I think there is a noticable quality difference between say vinyl and mp3 - but you don't have mix mp3s - there's various lossless compression formats out there.

I reckon vinyl might still be around in ten years, but it'll be specialist market. I think most people will be using laptops and or standalone digital music mixing systems. Anyone?

The cool thing is we have more choice to do what we want now. Its no longer a monopoly. You can buy and play your vinyl or go all digital or combine both and go nuts.

personally, i'm glad ive let go of vinyl.

still love it for the tactileness of it... but 'you cant stop progress'

They said it was on the way out when CDs came onto the market too. It'll be around in some shape or form alright, but like you said.. the appeal of digital music mixing set ups can only grow, particularly when mp3 is overtaken in quality as the commonly available and used digital format.

somehow i have the feeling this is an old discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

somehow i have the feeling this is an old discussion.

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Somehow I think you're right!

im sick of these posts but hummmmmmmmm! ive been dabling with final scratch latley and it kinda turned me on :shock: still djaying the old way but in a new form , i no many of you on here prob use final scratch but this s.h.i.t is new to me but good fun. ;)

ok im off ive put me vote in, these post always rattle me coz i do love my vynyl they my treasure :love:

Was discussing this the other day with my mate.

Im no expert but i think its days are numbered. How can it be any other way? I dont like admitting it. I love vinyl, i love the smell of vinyl.

However it does have one major advantage over CD and MP3.

It cant be copied.

I'll go over to CD totally when we get decent vinyl emulation. Spinning platters that feel ,like vinyl, and i dont mean the toss that's currently on offer from major manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

It cant be copied.

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Except for on to CD, presumably?

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

I'll go over to CD totally when we get decent vinyl emulation. Spinning platters that feel ,like vinyl, and i dont mean the toss that's currently on offer from major manufacturers.

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Personally, I think the demand that CD players should behave exactly like vinyl is what's holding the technology back.

You don't see people asking for "real VHS emulation" when they buy a DVD player... they want the new features.

http://www.tweakers.net/ext/i.dsp/1122206335.jpg

well, i do like this digital thing where you dont have to worry about the actual vinyl cutting. bass freq's n all that.

and its easier to burn a new cd than get a new piece of vinyl.

i'm glad its changing. took me a while to get my head round the change, but i'm glad its coming.



vinyl WILL die. the vital by-product from oil processing that is needed for vinyl will not be finacially viable to sell to vinyl pressers by 2008/9, so if its not gonna be produced, its not gonna be played. or so i read in the Guardian some time ago.

thank you Mr Bush. you have secured the death of a medium

All love slowly fades, while we refuse change.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

It cant be copied.

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Except for on to CD, presumably?

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

I'll go over to CD totally when we get decent vinyl emulation. Spinning platters that feel ,like vinyl, and i dont mean the toss that's currently on offer from major manufacturers.

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Personally, I think the demand that CD players should behave exactly like vinyl is what's holding the technology back.

You don't see people asking for "real VHS emulation" when they buy a DVD player... they want the new features.

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Except for on to CD - lordy! what a concept! I hadnt considered that...

You know what point i was making. Its the slowest way to copy somthing in the age we now live in., unless you can recommend a slower way?

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

All love slowly fades, while we refuse change.

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You feeling a bit EMO today steve?

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

Its the slowest way to copy somthing in the age we now live in., unless you can recommend a slower way?

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Meticulously re-creating the music sound for sound.

Much as I love Vinyl it is expensive, fragile and space consuming.

Nothing more annoying than paying well over the odds for something rare and deleted only to get it scratched.

I suspect the main drive will be when shops stop supporting it as a format.
Prices will rise, and legitimate digital media will be made available for less. There will always be a market for vinyl, but it will be a niche market.

All the technology is all here, but there isn't a business model to take advantage of it. Producers and labels can pretty much eradicate production and distribution costs. Look at the success of itunes, napster and all the other legit download sites. Imagine your favourite label having a portal where you can buy there entire back catalogue and all their new releases for a price you think is fair.

Piracy tends to thrive is where the consumer perceives that goods and services are not convenient and price is out of whack

Plus...

I love the idea of being able to dj anywhere, and only needing to take a laptop with me.

Beats lugging heavy great big boxes of records round muddy fields at ungodly hours in the morning.

Personally I don't mind either way. However I am leaning more toward digital in my future considerations because there's bugger all choice in the record shops lately and I resent paying the better part of a tenner for only one track that I like. Mind you, the better I get at making music the more up my own arse I go so I'm going to end up playing mostly my own stuff more than anything and I can make my preferred sound with any technology if I set my mind to it. I think the sound quality debate is largely bollocks these days. I used to think that vinyl was king but I'm more concerned with what the music does than the media it's on.

this is interesting, if anyone mentioned digital music/mp3's on this site a year ago, they would get slammed. whats going on?

bankruptcy, evolution.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

Its the slowest way to copy somthing in the age we now live in., unless you can recommend a slower way?

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Meticulously re-creating the music sound for sound.

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Ahh good old MIDI files!!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

sorry to be a grump, but i think digitial music is ruining techno. it sounds too digital and it doesn;t have the impact on a big system that vinyl does. after all its a square wave being played back over the system so elements of the analogue source are lost, assuming it was created in analogue. which brings me to another point; people want it a bit TOO easy. all these copy cat producers rinsing out mediocre techno week in week out, all seem to embrace this new CD/mp3 distribution, cos its cheap and accesible. don;t you worry about the end result and how it sounds on a big system? thats why i was so shocked that dave clarke, who clearly has a deep understanding of music tech, chose to move to CD. his sets just don;t have that umph anymore if you get what i mean. rant over :cool:

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Originally Posted by mattboyslim

sorry to be a grump, but i think digitial music is ruining techno. it sounds too digital and it doesn;t have the impact on a big system that vinyl does.

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Mmm, don't most people record masters digitally these days?

Hence vinyl is merely an analog reproduction of a digital original?

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by mattboyslim

after all its a square wave being played back over the system so elements of the analogue source are lost, assuming it was created in analogue.

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Wrong.

Using the right sample rate you can capture all the information.

Digital has everything Vinyl has. Its a fundamentel misunderstanding that you "lose" something when you record it in digital.

You can capture all the analogue nuances of your analogue machines more accurately on digital than you can using analogue recording methods. You just need to use the right sample rates.

Mp3 and digital are not one and the same. Please recognise this.

The days of music being confined to pieces of plastic are drawing to a close...

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

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Originally Posted by mattboyslim

after all its a square wave being played back over the system so elements of the analogue source are lost, assuming it was created in analogue.

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Wrong.

Using the right sample rate you can capture all the information.

Digital has everything Vinyl has. Its a fundamentel misunderstanding that you "lose" something when you record it in digital.

You can capture all the analogue nuances of your analogue machines more accurately on digital than you can using analogue recording methods. You just need to use the right sample rates.

Mp3 and digital are not one and the same. Please recognise this.

The days of music being confined to pieces of plastic are drawing to a close...

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thank you, I really didn`t want to have to go into an explanation of the whole vinyl/digital differences and crap that gets dragged up.

Essentially, more and more, soundsystems are utilising digital signal process in the signal path anyway, ie - OmniDrive
And these feckers give the phattest response on a good soundsystem (We run a soundsystem), so therefore on very good soundsystems, it`s more than likely that the signal has gone from analog to digital anyway.

Everything ^^^^^ they said...

... and like I was saying, if your source is digital (Cubase, DAT, Digital mixing desk etc.) then it's all academic anyway.

ok then. why does it all sound so crap these days then? (not being cocky i'd just like to know why)

Systems usually sound rubbish when halfwit djs play with five red bars, and clueless club-owners spend £20k on rig and then runs it through 3 year old crappy needles and carts.

Its nothing to do with digital. Look elsewhere my friend

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Originally Posted by mattboyslim

ok then. why does it all sound so crap these days then? (not being cocky i'd just like to know why)

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that's far too big a generalisation to expect a correct answer. what sounds crap? when did "these days" start then, the days when everything started sounding crap?

your forgetting that a huge chunk of records out these days are done with software, usually with some outboard processing, sometimes not, and everything gets mastered before cutting anyway of course... but i can gaurentee that you will have danced your ass off to a digitially produced piece of vinyl at some point

the mp3/digital misunderstanding was rightly pointed out, and you can play mp3's anyway at a really high bitrate and if the production is cool on it then its going to sound sweet

if poor sound in general is the problem then of course thats down to the clubs people are going to not getting their systems up to scratch, producers being lazy etc etc

i love the way people wade into these discussions with "oh its not on vinyl is sounds shite" or "i cant believe Dave Clarke uses just CD's, his sets dont have the oomph anymore" errrr did u got to Voodoo in March? his set certainly had alot of oomph in them, and there are a range of advantages that CD's have in a live environment such as no bass feedback/response off the monitors thru the needles, being able to cue and loop with the need for an external sampler etc etc thats exactly why some people are switching over fully, or at least intergrating them into their sets

if the production is good, and the bit rate is correct then there's no problems, as someone said most people save their work digitally anyway on computers, as WAV's and this is only what is going to be cut to vinyl at cutting stage, the alternative being a DAT

Bit of a shame about vinyl falling off the map, really, but as far as I can tell pretty much everyone I know who used to buy records DOESN'T now. Obviously there are exceptions, but not too many any more. Maybe some of the younger kids are still buying new stuff (someone is) but sales of black plastic have gone way down over the last little while.

I reckon individual labels selling downloads of their back-cat/new material etc is a real good idea. Unfortunately we've been trying to do mp3 downloads for AGES at just-music but there's something of a problem with getting (pretty much any) labels to agree to it. A lot of people don't really understand it and are unsure of it's benefits as a result. Many people fear copying and distribution of their mp3 but if it's going to happen, it'll happen anyway.

Also, I've been playing out off mp3 for some time now and no-one has ever complained about the sound quality. Personally I think if you encode them right and have an understanding of what works dynamic wise over PA systems (you need to know this no matter what format your tracks end up in) then things should be just fine. If you make shit tracks they're going to sound wrong out no matter what format they're presented in.

mp3 often seems to get the same slagging as fruityloops - too tinny, no bottom end, obviously digital artefacts in the sound.... THIS IS NONSENSE. It is what you make of it, and it's limitations are often not it's own but that of the user. Or something.

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

as someone said most people save their work digitally anyway on computers, as WAV's and this is only what is going to be cut to vinyl at cutting stage, the alternative being a DAT

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I would love to hear of someone who's still mastering their stuff onto old Studer tape machines or whatever. Unfortunately I just don't think it's possible anymore...

www.rejectedunknown.com

It sure as hell aint techno, but this guy is as lo-fi as it gets.

Mr.Johnstons idea of multitracking....

Take 1 cassette recorder. Play one part of the song into it.

Take second cassette player. Play pre-recorded 'first part' on the 1st cassette player, near and loud enough so the second can catch the signal. Then do your second 'part' onto the track, thus recording both.

Repeat 'bouncing' the tape between the players as you add more tracks until the song is finished.

AND he's a genius. Seriously.

well said Just, espcially re mp3 and Fruity

ive said it before and il say it again, you get out what you put in, and those who do their research and use/produce music in a digital domain will understand there really isnt a difference in sound quality if the tracks are produced correctly/well and the bitrate is correct

well, when are all these techno producers & labels gonna stop putting out vinyl?? it seems like they still wanna spend money to press vinyl, so i dont see any change anytime soon..........plus i would like to see labels start putting out their releases on cd, will that ever happen?

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Originally Posted by Just Music

www.rejectedunknown.com

It sure as hell aint techno, but this guy is as lo-fi as it gets.

Mr.Johnstons idea of multitracking....

Take 1 cassette recorder. Play one part of the song into it.

Take second cassette player. Play pre-recorded 'first part' on the 1st cassette player, near and loud enough so the second can catch the signal. Then do your second 'part' onto the track, thus recording both.

Repeat 'bouncing' the tape between the players as you add more tracks until the song is finished.

AND he's a genius. Seriously.

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he's unqiue. ie he doesnt feel the need to emulate everybody else who emulates everybody who uses FL etc.

I dont think vinyl is on its way out just yet... I'm pretty sure sales are still high at the moment due to many beginner djs buying turntables and such. Out of all the parties ive been to theres never been a cdj or laptop enthusiast playing out...ever, its always vinyl! No one I know who mixes has a cd deck setup, I just cant seem to get my head around everyone thinking a big change is underway!

I dont have a problem with people who mix using cd's, each to their own! but I much prefer vinyl because its the easiest to manipulate. But what I do have a problem with is people playing out (especially on loud systems) using mp3s! They just sound shite! I've been studying sound engineering for 3 years now and since then my ears have become more and more aware of quality audio. Anyone who says mp3s sound just as good as a wave file or piece of vinyl on a system is talking out their arse! theres a reason why mp3s were created - compressing large sized audio files (such as wave files) into smaller file sizes, hence a loss in quality. Even the highest bit rate mp3s of 320kbps are compressed 5/1 to a standard wave file (a wave file being 1411kbps) and most people never have mp3 files with a larger bit rate of 192k saved on their hard drives!

I do have a mate whos bought final scratch, and I must admit it is a pretty good piece of kit. But I just cant stick listening to mp3 files let alone mixing them! The sound is just flat, theres no depth or 'air' to the sound which you'll hear on a .wav file or piece of vinyl.

i do actually hope vinyl stays around for along time because i love the stuff and i seem to be buying more and more of it these days! The only way I see myself switching to digital medium is if websites offering full track downloads actually host wave files and not mp3. But because of the sheer file size of wave files I'll be waiting quite a while for the advances in broadband and internet download speeds!

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Originally Posted by Getz

I dont think vinyl is on its way out just yet... I'm pretty sure sales are still high at the moment due to many beginner djs buying turntables and such. Out of all the parties ive been to theres never been a cdj or laptop enthusiast playing out...ever, its always vinyl! No one I know who mixes has a cd deck setup, I just cant seem to get my head around everyone thinking a big change is underway!

I dont have a problem with people who mix using cd's, each to their own! but I much prefer vinyl because its the easiest to manipulate. But what I do have a problem with is people playing out (especially on loud systems) using mp3s! They just sound shite! I've been studying sound engineering for 3 years now and since then my ears have become more and more aware of quality audio. Anyone who says mp3s sound just as good as a wave file or piece of vinyl on a system is talking out their arse! theres a reason why mp3s were created - compressing large sized audio files (such as wave files) into smaller file sizes, hence a loss in quality. Even the highest bit rate mp3s of 320kbps are compressed 5/1 to a standard wave file (a wave file being 1411kbps) and most people never have mp3 files with a larger bit rate of 192k saved on their hard drives!

I do have a mate whos bought final scratch, and I must admit it is a pretty good piece of kit. But I just cant stick listening to mp3 files let alone mixing them! The sound is just flat, theres no depth or 'air' to the sound which you'll hear on a .wav file or piece of vinyl.

i do actually hope vinyl stays around for along time because i love the stuff and i seem to be buying more and more of it these days! The only way I see myself switching to digital medium is if websites offering full track downloads actually host wave files and not mp3. But because of the sheer file size of wave files I'll be waiting quite a while for the advances in broadband and internet download speeds!

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WORD :clap:

What we need, is lossless audio compression.

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Originally Posted by Getz

I dont think ...

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:clap: Getz. That settles that one.

I'm pretty sure sales are still high at the moment due to many beginner djs buying turntables and such

we wish

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Originally Posted by eyes without a face

I'm pretty sure sales are still high at the moment due to many beginner djs buying turntables and such

we wish

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Yeah really.

To be honest getz, I largely agree with you.

The problems being...

By trade I am a futures analyst. I love my vinyl, but I can see that is has had its day and it is doomed. Decks will still sell, vinyl will continue but a flood gate has been opened. Digital is here and it aint going away.

MP3 problems - low quality bitrate, poor quality and limited audio problems just aint gonna save vinyl. You can bet your socks that within a few years we will have lossless compression formats that are accessible and easily obtainable.

I will miss vinyl but to be honest I have stopped buying it. Slate me all you want but I can't afford it. And I know too many people producing for a living and I know damn well exactly how much they get from the £6-7 I pay for their music.

I want to support techno, the scene and the producers but I will be taking a break until someone starts offering me new releases in a format I think is fairly priced. In the interim I won't steal, but many others will.

Within a few years online will start to provide everyone with all their media needs - tv, radio, press etc. Digital formats are the future, and they empower the creators of the content.

What pisses me off is that I now need to buy final scratch or cd decks to play.

VINYL - RIP and I will miss you

But you can't block progress, no more than you can hold back the tide...

I feel an essay coming on. Will post my thoughts soon

x

if CD players would play 24-bit medium,, would also be good, i think..

i was thinking about red book standard, ,,why the CD is playing 16bit 44.1,,, and not 24bit 44.1.. answer someone?

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Originally Posted by BloodStar

i was thinking about red book standard, ,,why the CD is playing 16bit 44.1,,, and not 24bit 44.1.. answer someone?

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cos when the redbook was created no-one produced in 24bit. time to re-write the book i guess

Lossless Audio Codec = FLAC

You get to choose what ratio.

Still, the poor state of internet speed and capping is largely to blame for the slow uptake of this technology. But, in good time this will get better. We are just, as always, ahead of the technology.......