For All To See

Here is my dissertation to the state of things
I honestly feel that there is little to no unity going on at the moment.
Vinyl Sales are suffering.
Why, because somewhere along the lines someone decided that downloading a track would be more beneficial to their own personal listening pleasures than buying the vinyl.
I remember the deeper I delved into techno was not as a dj but you sort of become one when the only way to get that track you loved was to buy the vinyl. At one point I had to sell my decks to survive, and I still remember going to Cafe Sounds in Montclair New Jersey, Sonic Groove, Satellite in New York, NO DECKS. For the love of the genre. Somewhere that love has disappeared. People have lost that love to go out and buy that new record that just dropped. I didnt mind paying the extra 4 bucks for an import because I knew it would be that much doper. Greed, crews, laziness, have infected our scene to the point, where I will say yes, we are a dying genre. The deeper I have immersed myself into this movement the more I have seen the real people still pushing things as forward as they can and strive apart from the totally ego tripped out jerkoff who deserves nothing for doing a miniscule feat in the bigger scheme of things. People are slagging Glenn Wilson here on this very forum, why? I don't know, bottom line you can't front he's done more in his career most will do with theirs. Period. He's listened to me and helped me in my career and I couldn't think of a cooler person to do so, he's got no ego what so ever, and a sense of humour one could only hope to encounter when kickin it with one of their favorite producers. Schranz, love it or hate it, it's techno. It's here and the people who do it. Are actually cool as hell. I've met Kvitta, Amok, Obi, and a few others and the most we talked about was Tupac. What I am saying is that if you feel something is wrong with the scene do something about it. Instead of complaining about that underproduced track make your own Aria, RECORD SALES ARE DYING, BUY SOME FRICKING VINYL! I BOUGHT 300$ WORTH OF VINYL WITH NO TABLES. You want to hear people crank out the best music consistently, how will they have the drive and the motivation to do so when they think no one is listening? What I am trying to say is that the bottom line is that I am from this day on going to contribute to this genre, not slag not offend, I am going to do my part in making things better, so we can thrive again. I can't do it by myself.

well said.

I agree with most of this. apart from one thing, i dont think the greed is something that i see in the scene. I see a struggle to survive. what do you mean by greed?

Laziness, why laziness? do you mean downloading or actually going out to nights, or what? im not sure i understand this.

i agree on most points

too many people moaning about the state of things when there not actually doing anything about it themselves, thats what really gets my goat up as it were

pointless, and definately 100% jealous, posts from the likes of Acid saying "isnt Jeff Mills toss?" dont help either, totally pointless and as someone pointed out when you have played such a part in a genre like someone as mills, or Glenn as u say Tony, then like their music/djing etc or not, respect is simply due at times, and that doesnt have to be in the form of telling them they are brilliant. Do them a demo, offer them some tracks, surely if your submitting a demo to someone then u respect them enough to want them to release your music so to me thats another way of showing that you appreciate what they have done for techno, and in some cases for you as a person

i just like to see people giving a little something back, and it is happening regardless of the negative side of things... things are better over here than over the pond i imagine as we have some mighty clubs still packing a punch over here

there are people on this board trying to do their bit for the scene, and doing well too so far i might add, Tony with his DB and Punish, Steve running DB and Singularity, Mark running Blackout and his numerous Anxious records, Danny kicking ass with his releases, Ritzi getting charted by Dave Clarke, Dustin and Ian over the Pond, Brian too with Adverse, Jim running Humanoid and even myself with eps coming up on Advanced, Emetic and Humanoid, there's Matt and Jay knocking them out on Epoch Work and not forgetting the Dust crew with their AMAZING new label... apologies to anyone ive missed but u get the point

infact reading that just makes me realise there are people trying hard, i guess we just need to try a bit harder than those who are trying to bring it down

well said by the way Tony

missed David F's stunning Monoid ep off there too sorry dude

for all the bitching that goes on here its a pretty busy little community, has to be said!

i havent read it all yet SOS, but jees man... break up your text a bit.. paragraphs ? :lol:

its not so simple when there is no scene or loop to be with & work with.

here in belfast there is nothing. we have missed two whole waves of techno (the huge mayhem explosion with wittekind & amok etc.. then the Spanish broken sound from Mulero etc) so as much as i would like to be a cog again, its not gonna happen.

Northern Ireland is AT LEAST 5 years behind EVERYTHING apart from cheese. and Erol Alkan type mash-up stuff.. which, personally, i think is moving music backwards.

theres also too much emphasis on money. imo.

take the McC thing. he left techno due to bad sales. thats wrong. you should leave it cos you can do no more or move on to different things. not cos the money aint coming in.

ive had to sell kit SOS. my huge A&H desk went. as did my decks & all my kit. and 'perpetual' was ran at a loss (out of my pocket) for over a year jus so we had a techno night to be at. i run myself into the ground. i have nothing now. other than my gut feelings & pc lol

but did anyone else in the city lift the batton & run with it ? no. everyone jus sat at home moaning. no one is willing to put themselves out. so we have no techno scene, clubs or community. but thats jus here in belfast.

and just spending money on vinyl wont make an inch of difference. i think ppl have stopped buying vinyl cos they can make & play out their own stuff. which i think is a huge step forward.

i mean, no disrespect to Mr R Hood, but if i want a minimil groover for 9 mins, i can now make me own & NOT have to pay nearly £10 for badly pressed vinyl. ok, my minimil groover may not be as good as Mr Hood's, but its MINE. and it cost me nothing. and i can edit it at will.

records were only really tools & components for me to work with. now i make my own as opposed to buying other ppls. and quite frankly, the number of re-press's about, the big guns have got their money. they have had the crazy dj fees & jets all over the world. and i aint paying for it anymore.

and with things like Ableton, i really dont see myself ever going to turntable again. honestly. why would i crate about so much weight that is so fragile & easily damaged ?

it took me a long long long time to let go off wax, but i'm so glad i done it.



and as for this 'no slaggin' SOS, i mean come on man. EVERYONE does it. you do it. ok, you may be close to wilson & thats cool. ppl back their mates up. thats life. but you cant expect everyone to hold him in the same regard as you do.

i didnt set out to slag him (though i open on DC anyday) but i genuienly didnt see what was so 'new' about his latest work..

but that doesnt make me a hater. he had a pop at my (and my pals) work, and NO WAY would he have listened to it otherwise. ive sent numerous demos to Punish but never so much as an email to say 'thanks, but this isnt up to scratch' and thats not to diss anyone. its jus pointing out a weird situation thats only here cos i said i didnt see the big deal.

and it works both ways. theres stuff i like & think is future forward, but you may see as 'same ol same ol'

ive sent out hundreds of demos & the only person to get back to me on a regular basis is Robert Natus. ive been on the verge of a record deal sooo many times, i jus got bored waiting & gave up. and i'm sure its the same for hundreds of ppl jus like me.

i'm sorry, but ppl will disagree, and as much as you like to think we are all '1 happy techno family' thats never gonna happen. and i for one am glad. i like diversity & competition.



AND DONT FORGET - TECHNO IS A YOUNG FRESH ANIMAL... only 20-25 years old, where as rock'n'roll & jazz & soul have been about for so much longer.

techno will take a lot more time to go thru the peaks & troughs before it settles down into a steady solid music form. let it breathe & run round like a crazy child, but show patience.

I agree with some of that, but not all. Why is it that if you dont buy vinyl you are seen to be destroying the techno scene? I was already a bit of a computer/technology geek before I got into techno, so my approach to it was probably different than others, but still valid I think.

I first got into it all back in 97 or so, and at that time everything was still purely done on decks, or totally live on synths/samplers and hardware sequencers. But I had no interest in investing huge amounts of money into an ancient and really quite poor sound technology (vinyl), and I already had quite a decent pc, so I figured the way forward was to get the technology back into techno, and got a copy of rebirth 1.5, and started messing around with some old software drum machines and sequencers that I cant even remember the name of. This seemed infinitely more fun to me than playing records, but thats just me of course.

So decks never came into the equation for me really. I do have a pair of shitty soundlabs, and maybe as many as 100 records that I considered must have and that werent available on any other format. But I just listen to them from time to time, and thats it. But I have supported the techno scene, very much so. I've got stacks and stacks of various mix cds or compilations on CD, but more to the point, I've been going to techno nights and paying the entry fees and supporting them for 8 years now, and to me, that is true support. Buying records is cool, but if you spend all your dosh on tunes and cant afford to go down to the local night and support that, then you are letting the scene down just as much as if you dont buy records.

And this business about people stopping making tunes if no one buys them - I think not! I make tunes, and I have been messing about with that since 97 as I said above. I've never sold a single one of them, and although I do relish the chance to play them live, I would happily just bang them out for myself and my friends if that was all I had to do, simply because it makes me happy. I've played numerous sets for various people, none of which I've been paid for, and I've put on numerous nights of my own, most of which I've probably made a loss on. Anyone who decides not to make music cause there isnt any money in it, doesent have the love - its that simple really.

So I really dont think its fair to have a go at people like myself for not buying vinyl. Just because you love it doesent mean that I have to love it. There are other ways to support the scene, and I have DEFINATELY held up my end as far as that is concerned.

Good post Tony, I totally agree, but at the same time, I know the solution is more than trying to tell people to buy more vinyl.
It`s something I`ve gone over again and again.
There is far too much self preservation and selfishness and not enough unity, for a start.
Vinyl sales are dropping, shops are closing, distributers are collapsing, we are on the cusp of a new era in terms of how music is used and distributed as a product.
Club attendance is down in the uk, I`m not sure how it is abroad, but essentially, my generation have stopped going out clubbing and have moved into the wine bar and pub culture of middle age.
We Need the Kids.
But there is no bridge between good time youth movement music (rock n stuff) that they are listening to their clubs n bars, and dance music.
Their is no prodigy, no underworld, no leftfield there to get the lager drinking kids into the complexities of dance music.
Techno is very sophisticated (in terms of presenting abstract sounds to the listener), and takes time to "get".
The problem is also that the media has had enough of dance music, so it`s not being pushed in any major way, and like it or not, the commercial success of dance music in the 90`s (ie prodigy etc) helped the underground to no end.

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Originally Posted by slavestudios

AND DONT FORGET - TECHNO IS A YOUNG FRESH ANIMAL... only 20-25 years old, where as rock'n'roll & jazz & soul have been about for so much longer.

techno will take a lot more time to go thru the peaks & troughs before it settles down into a steady solid music form. let it breathe & run round like a crazy child, but show patience.

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i like this, great comment.

i for one always bought vinyl, for years i didnt have a set of decks, nor did i want to be a dj, i would buy loads of vinyl each week, just because it was, and still is about enjoying the music.

i'd borrow my mums record deck, and then record the vinyl onto tapes.
And even to this day, with a set of decks, i still only buy the records i want to listen to, its not, oh i'll buy this as i can play it in a set, i buy for the music.

I will always have upmost respect to anyone involved in the scene, from producers, promoters, label owners, dj's. anyone involved for the right reasons, even if i dont particularly enjoy what they do, still gets my respect.

i agree dirty and then the prodigy charged my mate in norway 25 grand to play at his parties, i grant ya loads of people turned out but at a premium ticket price, basically i think that the average wage of the youth cant support most music cultures these days, because the drop is across the board, i mean personally ive always bleated to distributors in the old cd album days how the hell can we keep it down in the shops. Apart from a recomended retail sticker thats all ya got really....you just hope the shops have the same integrity as you have. with a cd album manafacturing price of about 60p and a return to label of £4.20 how the hell does it outlet to punters at £14.99. I mean i feel for the kids because there living in a faulse financial enviroment where after gearing them selves out on a pair of jeans £80 & a £40 t-shirt, plus various other sundries, with the latest one of 9000 credit cards you can apply for online all whats left is the net to get there mp3 fix, which probably comes in the form of a bit torrent mostly. i mean wages to a point havnt really inflatted that much, mean i know people in jobs earning pretty much the same as they were 10 years ago.......

The thing is its human nature for the majority, if ya can get for free why pay. ive jumped the trains loads of times as a wipper snapper with no thought about british rail. :oops:

even proper priced clubs, proper priced this proper priced that i think wont solve it, we have moved from pieces of hardware being needed to work individual stuff to a 1 unit pc that can adapt to so many things. and its adapts in 0101010101 which widens the scope even further.

its swings and roundabouts though, i mean all the bought apats i have which are substitutes for some hardware i used to have, come at a premium reduction, so if i kitted my studio out in a 100% harware way rather than 50/50 id be shelling out probaly another 20 grand... or 25,000 sales in records.....

i think soon well either see artist giving there stuff away in promotion for bookings, or artist being booked because thats the only way to hear there exclusive unreleased stuff.......

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Originally Posted by Heroes

with a cd album manafacturing price of about 60p and a return to label of £4.20 how the hell does it outlet to punters at £14.99.

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If that's true then why can't you buy CDs direct from the label online for, say, £6?
Little bit extra to cover postage.

If I wanted a CD, and I could save half my money by buying it online, I would.

because for most its tiresome to work with individuals, sad but true, for one ive never had that attitude, for many years i ran direct distribution for the labels offering cds at what i felt competative prices. up until 3 weeks ago i was offering all planet rhythm and template cd back cat at i think £4.99 a cd, maybee even less

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Originally Posted by Heroes

i think soon well either see artist giving there stuff away in promotion for bookings, or artist being booked because thats the only way to hear there exclusive unreleased stuff.......

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In theory it'll go full circle back to the olden days, where artists get paid to perform and entertain with their music rather than being manipulated by companies to make a profit at the artist's expense. Its both bad and good at the same time depending on what side you stand on.

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Originally Posted by dan the acid man

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Originally Posted by slavestudios

techno will take a lot more time to go thru the peaks & troughs before it settles down into a steady solid music form. let it breathe & run round like a crazy child, but show patience.

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i like this, great comment.

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Yeah, me too, good statement Pete. Techno is going in many different directions now, maybe they are not as innovative and fresh as we'd all like but the fact is that there's more splitting and less unity than ever... it's just the way it is. Techno can mean so many things and many of us will dismiss many areas of techno to suit our own ideals on the genre, it's natural, and not something that's only applicable to techno either.

Re: Vinyl, I take your points Antonio, working in a record shop I've found it pretty dissappointing to witness the massive drop in demand for techno (and electronic in general) vinyl. I also think it's sad the way the distribution disasters or problems have halted talented producers' careers, or put an end to happening labels.

I'm not saying punters should have to buy loads of vinyl, however if you call yourself a fan or a supporter of the music you'd wanna be seeing that you are doing your bit to keep your favourite music and artists afloat, not spending all your spare time queuing on Soulseek.

Labels need to start selling work online in digital format.

People will continue to steal so long as its easier, and in many cases, the only option to get what they want. I don't condone this, but it is simply the way it is. No amount of protective legislation will change this.

Consumers are not prepared to pay £6-10 for a single, only to then convert it into a digital format and keep it on a computer.

The industry is out of step with the consumer. It needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Komplex

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Originally Posted by Heroes

i think soon well either see artist giving there stuff away in promotion for bookings, or artist being booked because thats the only way to hear there exclusive unreleased stuff.......

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In theory it'll go full circle back to the olden days, where artists get paid to perform and entertain with their music rather than being manipulated by companies to make a profit at the artist's expense. Its both bad and good at the same time depending on what side you stand on.

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Good point, maybe it'll be like it always used to be, if you were a muscian you lived or died based on your live performance.

After all the record industry is less than 100 years old, which is nought but a blip in the history of music, yet music has always been there. Even printed music is a pretty recent development, and only the very best ever got their sheet music printed until a couple of hundred years ago.

That is an amusing thought, but I'm sure the idea of selling music will not go away, just give the kuntz at the big record companys enough time and they will always find a way to part us from our money at great profit to themselves.

very good topic. agree with all.. very good points, here,. and agree with most. i think all this thing is very different in different countries. in times you 've got crisis on your scene, people are not coming to clubs to listen to good music, to see Djs in action and to hang up and have fun with friends, it can be much different in different countries,,and then you'll see that there is much more happening abroad, than in your country.,. kids are needed,,and where can these kids find their passion.? in a club or party,.and how to hook many people to come to a party?

in my country u have to book guys like Hawtin, Clarke, Vath, and similar if u want to be succsefull and to go over 0. Isnt it unhealthy and very selfdestroying, when these guys want 10thous. Euros for a play?... respect to all who see the point of struggling scene, and who goes to play for responsible price, regarding to position where promoter is. how u want to do people buy vinyls and not just DJs??
very new period for distributing music to people as was mentioned above,.
how u want to make people not downloading and then playing it on Final Scratch (which IMO same as it's something very innovative and good for going forward, it's also very selfdestroying, because lot of people is just downloading and then playing instead of buying.,.

also remember who bought the concept of final scratch, more more more more, iam not saticsfied more more more more, rinsed it, now uses a rival thats the loyalty "not" iam talking about. Techno the genre has been taken totaly for a good old anal drilling, had two barrel of shit f****d out of it and has been put on ice and left dormant in its cryo capsule ready to be picked up again sometime in the future when the majors have had had there fun gang rapping the latest musical trend.......

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

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Originally Posted by Heroes

with a cd album manafacturing price of about 60p and a return to label of £4.20 how the hell does it outlet to punters at £14.99.

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If that's true then why can't you buy CDs direct from the label online for, say, £6?
Little bit extra to cover postage.

If I wanted a CD, and I could save half my money by buying it online, I would.

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Some labels do that. I'm not sure about techno, but, Dischord used to put on the visibile parts of their tapes/CDs exactly how much it would cost to buy if you ordered through them directly. Thus, if you felt like you were getting raped by a store, you knew where you could find it and how much it would cost. Don't all the Truelove sponsored labels still have the webpage on them?

Hmmmm
I think the whole point I was making was instead of griping about anything wrong in the scene, do something to add to it.

I don't produce.

I have a time consuming job and thankfully earn a good quid. In turn I buy prob 40 to 50 records a month...supporting all yews from this board here etc. That's my role in this big cog of techno.

HEY SLAVE STUDIOS

I see you mentioned Northern Ireland...my Fathers side is from Bangor. Nice place? Crazy friggin Irish :shock:

40 to 50 records, thats what im talkin about.

good read tony, well said

shit, im buying $300 worth of records and i bearly have any dj gigs to play them out haha....

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Originally Posted by BloodStar

in my country u have to book guys like Hawtin, Clarke, Vath, and similar if u want to be succsefull and to go over 0. Isnt it unhealthy and very selfdestroying, when these guys want 10thous. Euros for a play?...

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From what I heard Wittekind filled a place in CZ rather nicely at about 10% of that price....





@ Topic: Good statement Tony. I wish I knew a solution to the dilemma, or even the answer to the question why everything is so ****ed up. Maybe it's just the general economic situation. Everyone fighting for themselves. :neutral: Techno is no 'movement' anymore

ummmm maybe try looking at electronic music as a market, instead of techno as a scene.

[quote="Sam"] At one point I had to sell my decks to survive, and I still remember going to
Cafe Sounds in Montclair New Jersey, Sonic Groove, Satellite in New York, NO DECKS. For the love of the genre.
Somewhere that love has disappeared.

Since I missed this the first time around, I'll comment now. I too used to hit up those stores. I stopped going to those stores long before I ever picked up a copy of Napster and, later, Kazaa. The main reason was because, rather than having a diverse range of music, they attempted to fit in to what they thought was a market. After all, they're record shops. And, in every case, the choices of people running the shops resulted in poor merchandise. It was around this time that I began having to listen to people bitch about how there was just too much shit music coming out and that is why the stores stocked so much shit. But, this was also a bogus claim. Since a friend worked at one of the larger vinyl distro houses in NYC, I'd get to go over there and score new music that was still quite good which, for some strange reason, wasn't being stocked by the best known stores for techno. So, did the music truly start to suck while everyone began downloading instead of purchasing? Or did the stores begin to
suck because the people running them got tunnel vision? The only thing that ever led me to go the MP3 route was because it allowed me to find whatever I want. The price was inconsequential since, before I was hitting the distro house, records would cost me anywhere from $8-$15 a piece. I could afford to buy the music as could any other DJ. The problem isn't downloading. The problem is that the dominant forces in the market got boring.

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Originally Posted by Amok

Maybe it's just the general economic situation. Everyone fighting for themselves. dunno
Techno is no 'movement' anymore

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I've never known it to be a true movement where it wasn't everyone fighting for themselves. It's partially why I don't fight within it anymore. I got tired of it. Even at free parties, you get people stabbing each other in the backs if they think it will get them a booking or time slot they prefer. Crews themselves are very catty and cliquey. The pseudo-movement behind it (at least where I am) doesn't strike me as being any different than what goes down in any other for-profit music scene. In a way, it's almost kinda worse. I expected to get ****ed when playing in bands for money. Never expected it in a scene where the money adds up to much more than a case of beer and some food. I guess that's why I've always stayed nomadic. While it would be great to meet up with some people on the same path, they seem to be scattered globally rather than centralized locally. Techno is a "movement" where I am if you consider the desire to hold on to the limelight for as long as you possibly can, and do whatever
it takes to achieve that, a movement. And despite how people look back with nostalgia to it being different, I never personally witnessed that in a decade.

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Originally Posted by DJAmok

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Originally Posted by BloodStar

in my country u have to book guys like Hawtin, Clarke, Vath, and similar if u want to be succsefull and to go over 0. Isnt it unhealthy and very selfdestroying, when these guys want 10thous. Euros for a play?...

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From what I heard Wittekind filled a place in CZ rather nicely at about 10% of that price....

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I think Rush filled a place and not Wittekind, IMO.

Well on the pictures I saw Wittekind playing in front of a big crowd, so I guess he must have a good market value.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

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Originally Posted by Heroes

with a cd album manafacturing price of about 60p and a return to label of £4.20 how the hell does it outlet to punters at £14.99.

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If that's true then why can't you buy CDs direct from the label online for, say, £6?
Little bit extra to cover postage.

If I wanted a CD, and I could save half my money by buying it online, I would.

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Some labels do that. I'm not sure about techno, but, Dischord used to put on the visibile parts of their tapes/CDs exactly how much it would cost to buy if you ordered through them directly. Thus, if you felt like you were getting raped by a store, you knew where you could find it and how much it would cost. Don't all the Truelove sponsored labels still have the webpage on them?

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it is true that crass and dischord and other punk band used to say
"pay no more than..."
on their sleeves
but it would prevent the records from getting into the chain store in the first place.
we discussed doing it once and it just turned out to be a bad idea...
but that was then
now websites are here to stay you can undercut people and get music to people at a reasonable price.
you just need to know where to go.

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Originally Posted by DJAmok

Well on the pictures I saw Wittekind playing in front of a big crowd, so I guess he must have a good market value.

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no no,. probably market here is not same as yours,,. it's not just name of DJ.... and i still sthink Wittekind will not fill so big place if he will be headliner,here.. that's for sure.. if there wouldnt be Rush,,there would just around 700-1thous and you would see just empty room,.,believe me ;)

I don't know the cz market as you do. Of course a "new" artist will not fill a place to the same degree, but you almost surely get a better costomer-per-fee ratio. (for example if DJ X costs 10000 euro and brings you 5000 people and DJ Y costs 2000 Euro and brings you 2000 people)

Depending on the location, you can make a load of money with 1000 People. And if the Party is good, there will be more people next time, plus you got the chance to have brought this DJ first and get a good deal with his agency.

At least that's how I see it working in many countrys.

Great thread....you chaps cover some great topics, that are reflected globally - even here in OZ.

Here we have a small community. Absolutely no access to labels that press to vinyl locally. There are a couple of producers who get put to vinyl.

I know of one Techno DJ who uses final scratch regularly at events.

We have nuthin'

But, we still do it. I know of two other dudes (HPS & Komplex) who, like myself are developing our sound and Live playing technique the best we can. We have to fund everything we do from our own pockets. We still do it.

Locally, our most inspiration comes from the likes of DJ Bold who you probably know over there. He is our most developed techno-file.

sorry if this is just a string of rambling shite....but its more me thinkin as I type and offering another perspective.

I really dont know what to do to foster the music scene onto greener pasture?? I do know that the most money I make comes from playing Live - not from track sales or royalties etc.