Something I read....

I was reading (dont laugh) this Radio Designers Handbook from 1953 and it said 'It is common practice to regard the ear as the final judge of fidelity, but this can only give a true judgement when the listener has acute hearing, a keen ear for distortion and is not in the habit of listening to distorted music'.

Now I sort of agree with this. And if you think about it, it turns alot around on it's head. As producers I reckon this is a really really interesting statement for us to talk about.. We think we're making our music 'better produced' by getting those levels sounding sweet but does Joe Bloggs recognise this?? Does Joe Bloggs care???

I don't remember listening to records before I produced them thinking OMG that's shit 'quality'. You actually listened to the track and only the track.

Very very interesting.

Very interesting point.

I remember posting something similar a while back along the lines of "does producing diminish your listening pleasure"

I noticed that when I listen back to alot of old tracks up to say 1998, when I started producing, I can't help but break down the track and critic the production quality...also when I am out on a club I find myself making mental notes for producing my own music and also thinking along the lines of that’s a great bassline, or that bass and kick compress well as opposed to listening to music as a whole....

I guess that naivety means you have a more open mind to music?? Who knows but I am sure it is something you can never get back for better or for worse?

i've wondered about this too, but my gut feeling as that even if joe schmo isn't consciously judging the production value and/or doesn't know how to articulate their impressions of the production value, it still makes an impression on him at a subconscious level. not only that, but distortion is tiring to the ear, and by the time you get to the end of an hour long cd the difference between good production and bad will be amplified, so to speak. the bad production will sound worse and worse as it goes on, even if all the tracks are at the same level of quality, while the well produced cd will sound good from start to finish.

I agree with the subconcious thing that affects Joe Average. He may not be aware of it but will say that track "x" really rocks "harder" than anything else etc.

Same goes for a good quality club PA. Most dont give a rats about the PA and like to go out and dance. But, the punters will have a better time with a better PA coz it shakes'em harder etc.....hehehe. Again subconciously they notice due to the room energy levels being less of more depending on the PA SPL.

I dont think that the quality of the fidelity etc is a major thing for Joe. He tends to be more interested in everything else (chicks, culture, community).

Its certainly an interesting read mark, but i disagree... sure listening to distorted music will give you an ear for distortion. But the book was produced in 1953 and you can be 100% sure those boys were FIGHTING the equipment they had back in those days, just to get a distortion free, clean signal level.

1953 - strive for audio perfection free of hiss and distortion
2003 - Everyone's moaning that there isnt a decent digital distortion plugin

I also used to think that producing diminishes your listening pleasure. And it does, but in a different way. You no longer put up with laziness behind the console or from the artist, and in the early days of self production you become critical of everything - not because you want to be, but because you have to be.

After a while things change and you start to enjoy music for its merits, not its faults. After all it goes right back to that manual Mark read - they looked to eliminate distortion, we KNOW we can put it back if we need. In other words your listening pleasure only returns when you start looking at the best bits in a song (still being aware of its problems of course) and congratulating the producer in your head for a job well done.

I also find that dancing really puts the music in perspective...

Just my 2p

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Originally Posted by holotropik

I dont think that the quality of the fidelity etc is a major thing for Joe. He tends to be more interested in everything else (chicks, culture, community).

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We should strive for it even if thats true.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

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Originally Posted by holotropik

I dont think that the quality of the fidelity etc is a major thing for Joe. He tends to be more interested in everything else (chicks, culture, community).

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We should strive for it even if thats true.

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word!

Quality production will only make your tunes better not worse.

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Originally Posted by Komplex

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

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Originally Posted by holotropik

I dont think that the quality of the fidelity etc is a major thing for Joe. He tends to be more interested in everything else (chicks, culture, community).

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We should strive for it even if thats true.

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word!

Quality production will only make your tunes better not worse.

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Very true. Otherwise we would would all be making tunes with a copy cuabse 2.1 using Gm sounds off a Soundblaster..

I suspect it's a bit like satisfiers and dissatisfiers, under Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Production values would be called a "dissatisfier", meaning that there's a minimum level of production values (meaning studio gimmickry such as compression, reverb and EQ) that people expect, and will be dissatisfied if it's not met - but exceeding that standard won't necessarily impress them (i.e. won't satisfy them - other aspects of the track will need to do that), and they probably won't even notice if the minimum standard is exceeded.

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Originally Posted by IQ

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Originally Posted by Komplex

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

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Originally Posted by holotropik

I dont think that the quality of the fidelity etc is a major thing for Joe. He tends to be more interested in everything else (chicks, culture, community).

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We should strive for it even if thats true.

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word!

Quality production will only make your tunes better not worse.

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Very true. Otherwise we would would all be making tunes with a copy cuabse 2.1 using Gm sounds off a Soundblaster..

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Many a good tune played on an old fiddle...

NOT.

Of course we should strive to push boundaries regardless. Thats the fun part for the techno producer.

Thats why it helps to come to places like this and get the feedback from others.

There are two avenues for tune feedback. 1 - Fellow producers & 2 - Punters.

and 3.. YOUR MUM :lol:

if your mum doesn't like it can't be good. mother knows best ;)



ok i'll be good...

I just have this vivid imagine in my head of a public art gallery crowded with the public and the upper class toff's, who sit around stroking their chins and drinking tea from cups using only their pinkies and debating "exactly which shade of purple in this Picasso really touches off the setting".

Definately I think as you become more involved in the process you become more critical, I used to just go out to clubs and bounce about like a mung loon, when I started messing with djing I started to hear the transitions more and be able to sort the tat from the top. Once I got involved in production I shifted down a level again and can focuss right down on single sounds, their production methodology and arrangement. So have I then descended to the realm of the chin strokers?

I think that my chin is very firmly stroked but I don't think it's too much of a bad thing to worry about, as the truth is the reason most of us have become so close to the source is we've become too involved in the process. There is a world of difference between folk like us, looking at a bassline and thinking in terms of compression, frequency and reverb and then flying to Reason to whack something down. Unlike the art critics in my ramblings, who's desire is to sit around and stroke their chins for the sake of it, they might have got close to the source but they aren't really doing anything, it's knowledge for the sake of knowledge to keep up appearances.

Definately strive for top quality production. Always... though that may include lots of distortion...

But... Many older tunes that don't have the quality sound just as good if the DJ playing them is skillful enough, 'cos the tunes are so good they catch you anyway...

Sometimes though I think it's a shame that people who write really good tunes, but their production needs honing have so much work to do 'cos a label will normally only take something that's already well produced - gone are the days when your rock demo on cassette will be grabbed if the tunes are good enough... That's the wonders of cheaper technology and the state of the market though.

I used to wish that someone could notice my ideas and help with the production...

Now my productions improving I think "Hands Orf!!"

[quote="IQ"]

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Originally Posted by Komplex

Very true. Otherwise we would would all be making tunes with a copy cuabse 2.1 using Gm sounds off a Soundblaster..

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oh damn it, do you mean im behind the times, 10 years work down the drain :doh: :lol: :lol:

Funny you should mention my mum, greg.

She has the hots for you......nah, only kidding :P (she reckons your a dork).

But, if my tunes have some sort of sound that is even remotely like a guitar in it then she likes it. She's such a rock pig.

[quote="dan the acid man"]

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Originally Posted by IQ

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Originally Posted by Komplex

Very true. Otherwise we would would all be making tunes with a copy cuabse 2.1 using Gm sounds off a Soundblaster..

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oh damn it, do you mean im behind the times, 10 years work down the drain :doh: :lol: :lol:

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No dan, casiocore is always searching for the next "Big Thing"

As was your mum the last time we spoke (although i couldnt make out excatly what she was saying for the pool ball wedged in her mouth)

mmm...

thinkin more on this original topic....it hurts my head.

when considering the dif between a producer/engineer/muso & a listener it is easy to see that the two different ears listen for different elements in the sound. There is the mind that de-constructs the sound into parts and freq. bands etc as compared to, say, a heart that feels emotion.

two different perspectives on opposite sides of the coin.

its important for the mind to see the hearts reaction,
its important for the heart to see the minds intent.

its along the same lines as a dj, listening to a dj, we'll be more into his mixing skills rather than just dancing and listening to the music, you end up paying attention to his mixing thinking, ohhh he went off beat, etc....

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Originally Posted by audioinjection

its along the same lines as a dj, listening to a dj, we'll be more into his mixing skills rather than just dancing and listening to the music, you end up paying attention to his mixing thinking, ohhh he went off beat, etc....

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Off beat? Booo Hisss (starts throwing tomatoes...)

no i realy find this so interesting. a bloke who'd just started producing years ago once said to me - i listen to music different now. and me and chrissi laughed at him. 'ass hole' we said. but now we're in it, i can see what he says. strange that. i think the key is to be able to switch back from producer.. to person in the crowd.

get yourself on that dancefloor and conciously try to stop yourself listening to it the way you do when you produce.

ok i'm slightly off the main distortion topic, but i think that if you're into music and then go to clubs, distortiion really don't matter alot of the time. i remember going to the most distorted shitties places and not even caring.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

i think the key is to be able to switch back from producer.. to person in the crowd.

get yourself on that dancefloor and conciously try to stop yourself listening to it the way you do when you produce.

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So true... It's easy to slip into trying to listen to how it's done...

But... Also gives another dimension to going out if you don't feel like dancing I guess...

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

no i realy find this so interesting. a bloke who'd just started producing years ago once said to me - i listen to music different now. and me and chrissi laughed at him. 'ass hole' we said. but now we're in it, i can see what he says. strange that. i think the key is to be able to switch back from producer.. to person in the crowd.

get yourself on that dancefloor and conciously try to stop yourself listening to it the way you do when you produce.

ok i'm slightly off the main distortion topic, but i think that if you're into music and then go to clubs, distortiion really don't matter alot of the time. i remember going to the most distorted shitties places and not even caring.

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Funny how music itself destroys music.

I find its almost opposite for me! Since I got involved in production I have actually started to appreciate the music of others more. I hear more layers, textures & dimensions to it now then I ever did before!!

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Very true. Otherwise we would would all be making tunes with a copy cuabse 2.1 using Gm sounds off a Soundblaster..

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Alex you bastard!! You have discovered my secret!! :dontevengothere: :lol: