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i think you guys know what im talking about....or maybe its just me heheh...
but anyone know what tools out there can use to THICKEN up a mix, or make it sound more CHUNKY?
Its hard to explain, but ive tried distortion and EQ'ing.....but the mix still sounds too thin. Will compression do the job?
Any production tips you'd guys like to share?
cheers.
i thinks its a mixture of everything above... no one thing will beef up your mix magically. well maybe the PSP Vintage Warmer can to an extent, so if you're not using that, give it a whack, its nice software.
HAVE TO AGREE PS VINTAGE WARMER IS VERY NICE... sorry caps.. or try the baxxxpander on your bass freqs. its quite nice in a worbly kinda way
thanks for the tips.
I find that too much distortion can shave off too much colour from the frequences and sometimes EQ'ing can add too much hiss.....i havent actually tried the PSP plugin yet, but im thinking of doing so, or perhaps buying a hardware tube warmer to run the entire signal through......
When it comes to the actual engineering (as opposed to the creation level) of dance music, i find myself often stuck and pounding my head against a brick wall.
Its possibly more about what you do in the mixing stage.
VSTs like PSPs vintige warmer,BBEs Sonic maximiser and I love the Nomad factory Bluetubes compressers,EQs and limiters and the Waves EQs are very nice as is the Waves Ultramaximiser.
Compression can deffo help to acchive a "chunkyier" sound but as I said its more about the mix than the mastering proccess(alltho mastering is a huge help)
Alot depends on the Plugginns that you use as cheep and free ones more often than not sound cheep or free and expensive ones have a habbit of sounding good.
Of course tho it helps if you learn to use them as they dont just magicly turn a thin sound in to a thick, warm or chunky sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindful
yeah, i think a good compressor will make your tracks definitely sound beefier, but just be careful, and try not to apply too much........also a little tube distortion (just a dab!) would work nicely too
thanks so much ;)
when you guys mean compression, do you guys mean compressing the entire mix, or just the part you want to compress?
Im assuming there is no magical "formula" or "rule" for compression values? For example, diffferent values for different instruments
you need to do alot of research into compression too its not just a case of "ahh compression, bang, magic mix!". Compression works differently on whatever your applying it to, and delve into what the different elements in compression do i.e attack, ratio, gain etc etc
sounds to me you need to work on EQ alot more too as it shouldnt just "add hiss". Have a good read up on EQ and subtractive EQ as it a very important element to getting a bigger mix, giving the parts space within the mix and taking out the frequencies you dont need on certain parts etc etc
the likes of the PSP Vintage Warmer only emphasise whats there already, they wont turn a thin, badly eq'd mix into some super warm, fat chunky track. That part is up to you do sort out unfortunately at the end of the day!
just check this board there must be hundreds and hundreds of usefull topics on here now regarding compression, EQ, mixing etc etc
thanks guys!!!!!
If you want to try an experiment, set up a chain with EQ and then compression. Boost the lower midrange frequencies a bit, possibly the upper bass frequencies, and apply some subtle compression. You might get a little more punch on the kicks without muddying up the mix. Adding too much compression will actually make your mix sound less "chunky" as it will completely squash the soundwave and, thus, you won't get the same response from your speakers on the kicks.
compressors are dodgy things at times.... but set up nice they can do the chunky thing - but more i find they are good for the 'pumping' mix effect..
main controls to mess with i think are ya compression ratio and threshold controls - the higher the ratio setting -- the more ya compressor wil squash the sound.... ya threshold is like the input that controls the ammount of compression that will happen according to how high u set up t he compression ratio!
yes i've just managed to confuse myself there :|
errr - ya just mess with those - - fast attack and long release generally works - as with everythin fiddle to it feels right
as other ppl have said - mess around with eqs as well - no reason why u cant compress a drum channel - bassline - and the mix as well....
one thing i find good to do - is if u set a compressor up on the main mix or any percussive part - check the levels of sound when u punch the bass OUT..
if its set up correctly - for example on a mix - when u drop out the bass - the mix should rise - mostly the hihats and other high and some mid noises... but u dont want it too rise tooo much or it'll get too loud and when the bass drops in it sounds all quiet...
get it right and your mix pumps nice and phat!!!
hopefully!
:shock:
Compressors = tight, sometimes "pumping" if you're using them on the whole mix or on a sidechain.
Chunky, I'd start with the level faders, then distortion and EQ perhaps to try and find some extra chunk. But you say you've tried EQ and distortion so maybe it's the original sounds that need a bit of a look at.
Where's a sample of your mix? I'm sure it's gonna be a lot easy to answer if you post up a couple of bars of somethign that sounds abit thin.
As Baz alluded to, I think compression can be seperated into 3 categories:
1) Turn it up compression. Transparent, bonks peaks on the head, makes everything sound louder, kills dynamics. If done well, you can't hear it, which makes it somewhat hard to listen for. I suggest using a plugin called Sinus PeakCompressor which shows you visually what you're doing to the signal with your threshold and ratio settings, and automatically covers attack/release/makeup gain for you. Definitely important to getting something of above demo quality, because without it everything will sound louder than your track.
2) Pump/groove/breathe compression. Think Daft Punk, Fatboy Slim, and most any house track with a good engineer. Usually triggered by the kick drum, this compression is actually part of the groove, because it shapes the envelopes of everything in time with the kick. It's not really concerned with helping you turn up your signal, because it's probably still letting attacks through, and you can definitely hear it working because everything sounds groovier and tighter - but it's still quite hard to do if you don't know what you're doing. To learn how to do this, I strongly suggest buying the book Mixing With Your Mind (or searching this forum a bit for an excerpt). It's easy to underestimate how important this compression is to getting an "expensive sound", and not sounding like a demo.
3) Sidechain compression. Particularly useful when manipulating how bass interacts with the kick...think in particular psytrance offbeat basses which are extremely closely knit to the kick, and that Eric Prydz vs Retarded Funk track "Call On Me" where everything pumps in time with the kickdrum (that was duplicated tracks, one sidechained and the other hipass filtered). It's easier for someone to show you how this is done, or for you to experiment your way towards it than to explain it, but the basic principle is that rather than the track being compressed also being the one which is triggering the compressor when it exceeds the threshold, a different track from the one that is being compressed is monitored to trigger the compressor. That probably didn't make much sense (see?) hehe...
All three types of compression will make your sound chunkier, but number 2 will probably do so most of all in the sense you're thinking of.
Psy trance you just leave out the bass note on the kick drum - works loads better than trying to duck it.
I've never managed to make a track sound as sweetly compressed as Prydz or as some of the Daft Punk stuff though ... usually give up trying before I finish one, all tips gratefully recieved :)
@basil:
i have heard just about all the french house guys, esp. the aformentioned daft punk guys used the (cheap) alesis 3630 compressor on the master. i think it's the weakness and cheapness of that special compressor which goes for about 115 euros new that helped to carve that sound. at the time it was supposedly what they could afford.
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_daft_punk/
"In their own music, Daft Punk uses a number of different compressors. “We have a really small compressor, the Alesis 3630, which is $300. That's the main one we used on Homework and Discovery. The one we used the most is one of the cheapest ones on the market. It's really funny; it's the bricolage thing. Sometimes you don't have to have the most expensive equipment to make good music.”
i suppose you know someone with that piece of kit flying around, basil?
compression as an effect no to just calm peaks etc.
as a plugin disco dsp's nightshine is supposed to mimik the alesis 3630 compressor. there's plugin demos for this one here:
http://www.discodsp.com/fx/
Now that's a useful trick - thanks. I've been trying to shorten kicks using timestretching, which was moving in a similar direction anyway, but tends to do nasty things to the transients; will have to try that.Quote:
Psy trance you just leave out the bass note on the kick drum - works loads better than trying to duck it.
If you haven't read it, the "Cracking a Safe" article on this forum somewhere should be helpful.Quote:
I've never managed to make a track sound as sweetly compressed as Prydz or as some of the Daft Punk stuff though ... usually give up trying before I finish one, all tips gratefully recieved
Eric Prydz:
So it's sidechaining, but whilst the sidechain is in operation a hipassed version of the sidechained track can be heard (although the hipassed track isn't itself being sidechained, if you get me). If you give the start of "Call on Me" a listen, there's no bass in the track except for the kick when the kick is present, but the high frequencies of everything else remain (unlike normal sidechaining where everything would disappear). Quite clever.Quote:
this can be done to some extent by ducking the bass using a side-chain compressor. to increase the effect but still retain some of the bass transients do what eric sometimes does:
1. bounce your bassline to a mono audiotrack.
2. slice your bassloop with one cut on the beat and one just where the energy of the bd disappears. do this for every 4 measures in the bar.
3. duplicate the basstrack.
4. put a high-pass eq on on of the tracks.
5. mute bass audio segments so that
a) the high-passed track plays when the bd hits but quickly fades out.
b) the normal bass track is silent when the bd hits but quickly fades in.
play with the timing of the fades and eq cutoff to find the thresholds that fit your bass and bd track.
Bizarrely I have an Alesis 3630 in the cupboard, I'll wack it across a pair of ins and outs on the computer and try it on the mix tomorrow :)Quote:
Originally Posted by loopdon
So more like taking a highpass filter and wiggling it up and down with the beat! Mmmmm ... curious, will experiment with this a bit, it's a cute sound he's got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by rounser
yeah, try that! dunno i suggest you try both the sidechaining avec the bass flining it over the master to see what yields the best results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil Rush
i was googling for this prydz thing and found sth. describing what rounser said about the highpass thing just to find out it was rounser who posted :lol:
"I've been messing with sidechaining a lot recently...e.g. the Eric Prydz trick is to have the bass get sidechain ducked/gated completely by the kick, but have a high passed version of the bass kick in when the normal bass gets ducked. "
from the k-v-r forums:
"Prydz as well as others swear by the Alesis 3630 compressor.
They use it on the master track mostly to get that pumping effect."
keep us posted plz!
[/b]
Hehe....my source was KvR, where the guy who posted those notes said he read it from some magazine article interview with Prydz. You may want to search there.Quote:
i was googling for this prydz thing and found sth. describing what rounser said about the highpass thing just to find out it was rounser who posted lol
haha , i heard prydz was interviewed and said he mainly used reason...Quote:
Originally Posted by rounser
Hmmm....
Well, comp will only do so much. The original sound is where the power and the fullness comes from. If it aint there to start with not much will change this.
I have always taken the simple approach to creation. it is my way as it is so more challenging and eye opening. Basically I found that if you start off with the bassline and then add the kicks (maybe two or three kicks to make one) so that they completement each other rather than cancel you can get very full sounds. Running comp and dynamics over this will clarify it and help to highlight parts you want. Comp will sharpen and add to the already full sound depending on what sort of effect you are after.
The best trick is working out how to add multiple kicks to make one good kick.
Just so you know exactly what's going on, my source was this thread:Quote:
haha , i heard prydz was interviewed and said he mainly used reason...
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82119
I assume you've been reading this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewto...;postorder=asc
Regardless, the reports aren't mutually exclusive, because sidechaining is possible in Reason with a bit of cable muck-aboutery. You'd have to route through a Malstrom to filter the signal rather than the filter module, because from memory the filter module lacks a high pass filter.
I used Creamware SCOPE, which is all modular routing too. I think the only platforms which can sidechain tend to be modular.
To make more room available for the bottom end of the kick I set HP filter sweeps as well as gain reduction in FL Studio to duck with a second muted kick drum (using a peak and forumla controller combo), but something I've started doing recently is triggering the transients a few ms BEFORE the kick drum and with a longer attack. This keeps the side chain compression smoothe as silk and less noticable, but still gives my kick a nice amount of room to really punch through the mix. At the same time I link the gain on reverb sends to the same peak controller so that they also duck in time with the kick. If you listen carefully it has that acid techno kinda thing going (far more subtly of course), but on all instruments using reverb, not just the kick (which I keep mostly dry anyway).