the techno divide - perception?

This is a topic thats been bugging me for years....why is it that some artists get (rightly imo) treated like big stars, and others seems to suffer from the glass ceiling syndrome? I'm thinking of dtd or chris lib as opposed to say leibing?, and don't want to get too personal about it, just interested in why say picotto can host big events in ibiza, and be considered a global big name, but doesn't really play anything that different from a lot of other people, just seems to have that superstar tag........is this down to marketing? I would argue the biggest name in techno in the uk is clark, but yet whilst he has talent on the decks, I don't rate him as a producer, and wonder if once you are at a certain level the name will just carry you on................if they were to hold another universe would the lineup really be any different from 10 years ago? is that right? or does it just reflect whats happening....what do you reckon?

just realised I spelt liebing wrong..........arse

actually upon reflection I was right the first time.....what the hell is going on with the lack of edit button?

I think a lot of it comes down to whether the glossy dance mags decide to champion you or not. If the likes of mixmag tells the world you are great, then the sheep will read and believe. Also if you can get name dropped on a big radio station then your on the way to increased recognition and stardom.

If on the other hand you don't seek this kind of attention then your not going to get it. Its my feeling that maybe Chris and Henry don't actually want to be stars (I may be wrong) and are happy with a quality reaction on the dancefloor. So I think perceptioon does make a difference. But not just the punters perceptions, it would also depend on a DJ's perception of success. Whether they believe success is measured by how many pictures you have in this months DJ mag or how many people dance to your music.

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Originally Posted by Stodgy

I think a lot of it comes down to whether the glossy dance mags decide to champion you or not. If the likes of mixmag tells the world you are great, then the sheep will read and believe. Also if you can get name dropped on a big radio station then your on the way to increased recognition and stardom.

If on the other hand you don't seek this kind of attention then your not going to get it. Its my feeling that maybe Chris and Henry don't actually want to be stars (I may be wrong) and are happy with a quality reaction on the dancefloor. So I think perceptioon does make a difference. But not just the punters perceptions, it would also depend on a DJ's perception of success. Whether they believe success is measured by how many pictures you have in this months DJ mag or how many people dance to your music.

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i think a happy medium is good. Nobody that does this full time wants to be broke so a certain amount of promotion is needed to survive. I know if i decided to give up the day job and go into this full-time, i'd be promoting my ass off to put food on the table (which is probably why i know i never will!).
another reason why the likes of pvd and tong etc get where they are is luck. no matter how much work you do you can never guarantee anything.

It`s no different from any other media. IT`s down to PR and promotion. Shove enough shit down peoples throats and they will learn to love shit. Say the same thing to people enough times and they will beieve it.
If a pop song is played on enough radio and tv programs, even if you hate it, you`ll prbably find yourself humming it anyway at some point.
It has little to do with talent.

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Originally Posted by Stodgy

I think a lot of it comes down to whether the glossy dance mags decide to champion you or not. If the likes of mixmag tells the world you are great, then the sheep will read and believe. Also if you can get name dropped on a big radio station then your on the way to increased recognition and stardom.

If on the other hand you don't seek this kind of attention then your not going to get it. Its my feeling that maybe Chris and Henry don't actually want to be stars (I may be wrong) and are happy with a quality reaction on the dancefloor. So I think perceptioon does make a difference. But not just the punters perceptions, it would also depend on a DJ's perception of success. Whether they believe success is measured by how many pictures you have in this months DJ mag or how many people dance to your music.

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yeah i'd go along with that too, i think alot of these so called stars are marketed this way, and choose to be in the limelight more.

im sure the professional producers here can answer this, but does it actually bother you if you're featured in the glossy mags or not, its hard for us who dont produce professionally to know the answer to this.

obviously, the main thing is seeing people on the dancefloors enjoying your tracks as they're meant to be enjoyed, but do you kind of feel neglected by some of the music press by not being recognised for your work as much as some producers.

on a personal note, im sure most of us here, if we where producing, or for those of you who do produce, wouldn't secretly mind seeing the press praise our tracks and want to find out more.

personally I don`t care, I`m gonna do what I do regardless of the relative magazines or media, I make music more out of compulsion and expression than the want for fame or any of that rubbish.
I don`t read media magazines any more though, as really, it`s just waffle filled with other peoples self important opinions.
I`d rather make my own mind up, and discover music my own way, rather than be spoonfed charts etc.
I am, however, a pretentious fool.

I would say that to make it in tha same way that pvd and tong have does take a degree of luck but these people also have a commercially viable image and more mainstream appeal than say the london squat party DJ's. You have to have an image to sell yourself and the more people that relate to it the more people will buy into it.

And yes, the media is filled with other peoples opinions, but the reason these magazines sell is because sadly, many people need to be given an opinion as they are incapable of forming their own and just believe what they read and take it as gospel.

some interesting points, but I was thinking specifically of techno dj's - the fact some seem to have almost superstar status i.e. liebing,picotto etc and yet don't really play music much different from more underground dj's.....

See what your saying, but I would still maintain it's an image thing. Picotto and Liebing both have a marketable image that will pull punters. Not sure about Liebing these days but I would say Picotto is more of a crossover DJ who I have heard play some full on, no holds barred cheese.

With DJ`s it is even more down to good PR. Good promotion, good advertising, and whoring yourself.
A lot of the top names can`t mix for toffee and play obvious toss.

it's ALL down to promotion and having a business head. if i wanted to be huge, commercially accepted, it would be very easy to do. i've worked for lots of the major magazines, i've pr'ed for some of the biggest record labels, i've interviewed everyone from juan atkins to laurent garnier and i totally understand the way it works. but the fact is, some people just dont want to do it. or are not turned on by it. i feel somewhat ashamed to push myself through pr like i see so many artists do. i know c. lib feels like this and i think henry does too. we're all just not 'stand from the rooftops and sing how good you are' type of ppl. perhaps i'm shooting myself in the foot but at the end of the day feeling 'real' and in touch with the dancefloor means alot more to me than sending a spam email to 8000 blackout audio members telling them to vote for me in the dj mag 100.

anyway that's mho.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

it's ALL down to promotion and having a business head. if i wanted to be huge, commercially accepted, it would be very easy to do. i've worked for lots of the major magazines, i've pr'ed for some of the biggest record labels, i've interviewed everyone from juan atkins to laurent garnier and i totally understand the way it works. but the fact is, some people just dont want to do it. or are not turned on by it. i feel somewhat ashamed to push myself through pr like i see so many artists do. i know c. lib feels like this and i think henry does too. we're all just not 'stand from the rooftops and sing how good you are' type of ppl. perhaps i'm shooting myself in the foot but at the end of the day feeling 'real' and in touch with the dancefloor means alot more to me than sending a spam email to 8000 blackout audio members telling them to vote for me in the dj mag 100.

anyway that's mho.

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but mark you're at a stage where self promotion is part and parcel of the job. like you said you need a business to do it but i think that entails self promotion.
Even this site is a form of self promo. i'm certainly not knocking you for it, i think its great more people should get it together more (myself included).

so maybe certain djs should be learning to help themselves out more because for some of you guys its your living.

for the most part, i do agree that alot of times the reasons why DJs get big is pure marketing and promotion.....but there are a few instances where DJ's will just release one track that is supposedly good and blow up to stardom afterwards.......think Renato Cohen and his release of "Pontape". After that track was released, ohhh my god, i can almost guarantee he was signed to a big time booking agency, played by the biggest names in the world, and the most well known DJ in Brazil......all of that off one track.

Then there are guys that are just consistently good, and even though they are new, they have talent and it will be INEVITABLE they will continue to get bigger and bigger......think Joris Voorn. This guy basically came out of NOWHERE. And he has almost came at the perfect timing too, offering listeners the soulful and detroit sounds of techno....catered to the mass majority of people that are now getting sick and tired of german "schranz".

So yes, my theory.....(and i stress theory because im not heavily in the industry), is that stardom comes from 3 factors: marketing (picotto), one hit wonders (cohen), and talent (Voorn).

Yeah, but Picotto is also known for cheesy trance numbers, and in fact probably has a bigger following in that field ("Lizard"???) He is already very well known due to his commercial success, so it´s not surprising that he is able to play techno nights in Ibiza, because he already has a crowd from his other work. It´s not like he has built hmself up from nothing as solely a techno dj.

i wouldn't say cohen was a one hit wonder. the guys been djing for a long time! in fact he was on the verge of quitting b4 pontabe went massive.

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Originally Posted by tekara

for the most part, i do agree that alot of times the reasons why DJs get big is pure marketing and promotion.....but there are a few instances where DJ's will just release one track that is supposedly good and blow up to stardom afterwards.......think Renato Cohen and his release of "Pontape". After that track was released, ohhh my god, i can almost guarantee he was signed to a big time booking agency, played by the biggest names in the world, and the most well known DJ in Brazil......all of that off one track.

Then there are guys that are just consistently good, and even though they are new, they have talent and it will be INEVITABLE they will continue to get bigger and bigger......think Joris Voorn. This guy basically came out of NOWHERE. And he has almost came at the perfect timing too, offering listeners the soulful and detroit sounds of techno....catered to the mass majority of people that are now getting sick and tired of german "schranz".

So yes, my theory.....(and i stress theory because im not heavily in the industry), is that stardom comes from 3 factors: marketing (picotto), one hit wonders (cohen), and talent (Voorn).

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very, very good point.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

but mark you're at a stage where self promotion is part and parcel of the job. like you said you need a business to do it but i think that entails self promotion.
Even this site is a form of self promo. i'm certainly not knocking you for it, i think its great more people should get it together more (myself included).

so maybe certain djs should be learning to help themselves out more because for some of you guys its your living.

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yeah you're exactly right but i honestly dont think of this site as self promotion. the forum was not originally set up for that and i definitely dont think of it like that. i totally see what you're saying though. at the end of the day this site IS pretty strong self promotion for me. so are my record reviews, so is the radio and so is everything i do. but i'm doing all this cause i want to and it all excites me cause it's all music based. what i'm saying is, i just find it very, very hard to do things like send out press releases to magazines each week saying 'i rock' or send a spam out to all our members saying 'vote mark eg in the dj top 100'. do you get me?

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

i wouldn't say cohen was a one hit wonder. the guys been djing for a long time! in fact he was on the verge of quitting b4 pontabe went massive.

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hehe dont get me wrong. Im not saying the guy didnt pay his dues! I respect his music alot and im sure he is a hard working DJ. He deserves every bit of credit he receives, but IMHO "djing for a long time" is irrelevent in this case. Im sure everyone on this board has been djing for a long time but it doesnt necessarily mean they will shoot to stardom the way he did.

I guess my wording was a bit misunderstood......my analogy of Pontape was NOT to discredit Cohen in any way. Im just trying to emphasize the fact that certain DJ's can immensely skyrocket their career off just ONE famous anthem they produce. In this case it was Pontape. When i meant "One hit wonder" i dont mean it in a negative sense like "ohh that guy is shite, he just made one famous track and was never heard of again". I was just trying to stress that sometimes all it can take these days is if only ONE track is really well received by the mainstream masses....sometimes these producers can never make a track that well received ever again. And who's to blame them? Theres a lot of pressure for these guys to continue following up with success after success.

Don't believe me? Think of DJ Preach's "No War in Summer". Again, dont get me wrong. Excellent producer, excellent DJ. But after Preach released that track, the rotation that track got from Carl Cox had UNDOUBTEDLY skyrocketed his career....

It's great, and im glad that theres some new young blood out in the scene thats given an opportunity to progress this music that we love so much. Im just saying that sometimes that one famous track can make or break someone's career.

my .02$

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

i wouldn't say cohen was a one hit wonder. the guys been djing for a long time! in fact he was on the verge of quitting b4 pontabe went massive.

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With regards to Cohen and 'Pontape', why was this track so popular? It was pretty heavily licenced and was hugely successful for Intech but I still can't understand as to what was so special about this particular track?

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

but mark you're at a stage where self promotion is part and parcel of the job. like you said you need a business to do it but i think that entails self promotion.
Even this site is a form of self promo. i'm certainly not knocking you for it, i think its great more people should get it together more (myself included).

so maybe certain djs should be learning to help themselves out more because for some of you guys its your living.

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yeah you're exactly right but i honestly dont think of this site as self promotion. the forum was not originally set up for that and i definitely dont think of it like that. i totally see what you're saying though. at the end of the day this site IS pretty strong self promotion for me. so are my record reviews, so is the radio and so is everything i do. but i'm doing all this cause i want to and it all excites me cause it's all music based. what i'm saying is, i just find it very, very hard to do things like send out press releases to magazines each week saying 'i rock' or send a spam out to all our members saying 'vote mark eg in the dj top 100'. do you get me?

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so how do you explain the mail you sent me saying "i'm great & everyone else is just average in comparison to my greatness" ;)

i know where your coming from. i guess its more about the TYPE or promo rather than the quantity.