Has Vinyl Limited Techno ?

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19-01-2006, 09:48 PM
module

Has Vinyl Limited Techno ?

has the format held back the content ?

i may believe so... i'm not sure tbh lol

the music is geared towards the format, and outside of lock grooves, there is no option for vinyl music. its either a track, or a lock.

now, with ableton & laptops & cdjs & such, ppl can take whole tracks, or 4 beat loops or single hits & really really bend things into something new.

at the same time, vinyl also creates a level playing field, in that, when faced with a basic set up (2 x 1210s & DJM600) its is down to skill, in mixing, eq, fx & tune selection. you cant automate 25 records on vinyl, but you can bluff with Live.

i'm not saying vinyl is dead or crap or such, its jus a thought. i'm moving house (gettin married actually.... :eh: ) & have been selling vinyl & going through my collection marking things for sale & for keeps, and cant help but thinkin of the days there where no laptops or cdjs.. jus 1210s, Akia samplers & Roland drumachines lol

as the music has changed, so have the tools & the way in which we use them, but there must be a point where certain formats & process are put to bed.

drumachines, for example, have taken a huge battering over the years. very very few still remain in production, and machines such as the TR909 have taken on almost mythical status lol yet most ppl laugh at DR550's & RX11's... and today, its easy to see why. the early machines were very limited & basic, but at that point, they where new exciting machines.

synths, in a similair way, have also taken a thump from the digital revolution. once highly sought after machines are now available for a fraction of their previous price on eBay, or have a vst version that takes up no space & can be had for £000.00 via torrents, or get a sample cd & throw it into Logic.. even Novation went s'ware on their once all rulling Basstation, and have pushed the cmidi ontroller product over their synths.

yet vinyl, still, remains... i find this odd & strangely compelling. but i wonder has it held the music back ?

jus a thought... :content:
19-01-2006, 11:14 PM
dan the acid man

i suppose anything written with a dj in mind has held it back slightly, not the format as such.

but at the end of the day its dance music, best suited to being played in a club or at a party, by a dj who mixes the tracks with whatever tools he chooses.

i for one just like listening to songs, i like my music to have a begining, a middle bit and an end.

i think you can still be creative and yet dj friendly.

but i think most producers here will have written music that isnt so dj friendly, just as a way of letting loose and going wild with things
19-01-2006, 11:17 PM
dirty_bass

Yes.
But sometimes when you are presented with limitations you have more incentive to push the limits.
20-01-2006, 12:20 AM
module

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Yes.
But sometimes when you are presented with limitations you have more incentive to push the limits.

very true. i know all about this having gigged very very basic equipment. too many options can create complacency, where as limits can force improvisation.

as for the dj issue, i have made music for dancefloor, and music for armchair. i know there is a difference here. dj trax can be tools, or compositions, or songs. dancefloor can be any of these.

its the format itself, has it held ppl in the 'song' or 'track' format for too long ? should ppl start to produce loop packs & samples as opposed to jus the MP3 full track ?

there was another thread about a similair idea..

jus thinking out loud i guess
20-01-2006, 12:36 AM
dan the acid man

making loop packs and sample packs isnt making music in my eyes (or should that be ears), don't forget alot of people listen to techno for the love of the music, not to play around with it behind equipment.

i know thats why i buy music, playing around with it is just an added extra
20-01-2006, 12:41 AM
module

thats cool dan.

but isnt a track on vinyl the same thing to an extent ? a small part of a bigger thing ? a component ?

personally, i'd rather have 4 or 5 variations on a 16 beat loop than a 6 minute track.

the minimil sound is also a lil like this. 7 minutes of jus hat & a few placed pads & a beep.

on vinyl, yes, absolutely, the full track. but for Ableton & Acid, you dont need the 7 minutes, jus a few loops.

this isnt supposed to be 'The Answer' or any such, jus a thought.
20-01-2006, 12:47 AM
dan the acid man

well a good pice of music will take you on a journey, (bloody hell, im sounding a bit hippyish) a 16 bar loop isn't going to do that for me.

even a minmal tune can go somewhere, it doesn't all just loop for 6 minutes
20-01-2006, 03:11 AM
module

yeah, i know minimil, moves with eq etc, but if your mixing 5 or 6 channels with fx/vst in Live, it can create a similair effect.

anyways, jus a thought.. if we all thought the same, i dread to think...
20-01-2006, 09:21 AM
holotropik

I think vinyl has limited the music due to the economics and the accessibility of the plants required to make it. If you dont have access to plants that press then it is hard to get pressed. The economics come into play as you need to press about 1000 (?) in order to cover costs and make profit from the release. So chances are not taken when the decision is made to take on an artists work. The label wont risk a pressing if the artist is 'different/experimental' or little known.
20-01-2006, 09:37 AM
dirty_bass

I just can`t see the point of putting out loops.
If you are gonna let people play your stuff live, then do it yourself.
20-01-2006, 10:38 AM
holotropik

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I just can`t see the point of putting out loops.
If you are gonna let people play your stuff live, then do it yourself.

I thought about this recently...

Give DJ, who has some cred, my loops that he uses with ableton etc....he mentions to peeps, who ask, that some of the loops are mine and that gives me cred....?

has to be an honest DJ with integrity though.....hmmm?...maybe thats not such a good idea.
20-01-2006, 11:24 AM
TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Yes.
But sometimes when you are presented with limitations you have more incentive to push the limits.

Or: You need to have rules in order to break them.
20-01-2006, 11:55 AM
dirty_bass

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Yes.
But sometimes when you are presented with limitations you have more incentive to push the limits.

Or: You need to have rules in order to break them.

Yep, that`s my lifes philosphy in a nutshell.
20-01-2006, 11:59 AM
Miromiric

you are such a rebel steve.
20-01-2006, 12:16 PM
RDR

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Yes.
But sometimes when you are presented with limitations you have more incentive to push the limits.

Or: You need to have rules in order to break them.

Or: Play by the rules and the rules play you.
20-01-2006, 12:17 PM
RDR

Anyone got any other similies?
20-01-2006, 12:26 PM
dan the acid man

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

Anyone got any other similies?

why, there's enough smileys on here already :lol: :lol:

i'll get my coat :oops:
20-01-2006, 12:46 PM
The Divide

The only limitations I can see with vinyl is that you cant have bass sounds in stereo, that the distribution company has had control over units and its cost to make

I would say that, with techno been mostly 'DJ's music', its shaped the structure and shown what gets exposed and what doesn’t. I can remember having an argument with someone a few years back about how a record should have a dj friendly 33 bar 'lead in/out'. How dumb an argument that was, nowadays I think im just going to write stuff how I want it and not give a **** about dj’s or how friendly it is. Hopefully with the digital thing, tracks will dropped in or mixed differently, beats wont be a necessary to mix with and instead the beginning or ending of a track can have other sounds mixed to a predefined tempo set on the software/hardware.

My 1p
20-01-2006, 01:02 PM
TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

Anyone got any other similies?

I think you mean synonyms.
20-01-2006, 01:11 PM
holotropik

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Divide

The only limitations I can see with vinyl is that you cant have bass sounds in stereo, that the distribution company has had control over units and its cost to make

I would say that, with techno been mostly 'DJ's music', its shaped the structure and shown what gets exposed and what doesn’t. I can remember having an argument with someone a few years back about how a record should have a dj friendly 33 bar 'lead in/out'. How dumb an argument that was, nowadays I think im just going to write stuff how I want it and not give a **** about dj’s or how friendly it is. Hopefully with the digital thing, tracks will dropped in or mixed differently, beats wont be a necessary to mix with and instead the beginning or ending of a track can have other sounds mixed to a predefined tempo set on the software/hardware.

My 1p

Oh!!.....how dare you say you dont give a **** about DJs!!......dont you know how important they are? Dont you want them to play your tracks out?

hehehehe.
20-01-2006, 01:12 PM
dirty_bass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miromiric

you are such a rebel steve.

Yep,
As Zack from Rage against the maching said so well.

**** you I won`t tie up my shoe laces
**** you I won`t do as you tell me
**** you I won`t do my homework
**** you I won`t eat no greens
**** you I won`t wash my hands before diner mum

Unfortunately, mummy grounded me. :(

But I`m still rebelling, I`m not gonna drink my cocoa.

**** you I won`t use no hot water bottle.
20-01-2006, 01:56 PM
AcidTrash

**** you I won`t tidy my bedroom
20-01-2006, 02:33 PM
The Divide

Quote:

Originally Posted by holotropik

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Divide

The only limitations I can see with vinyl is that you cant have bass sounds in stereo, that the distribution company has had control over units and its cost to make

I would say that, with techno been mostly 'DJ's music', its shaped the structure and shown what gets exposed and what doesn’t. I can remember having an argument with someone a few years back about how a record should have a dj friendly 33 bar 'lead in/out'. How dumb an argument that was, nowadays I think im just going to write stuff how I want it and not give a **** about dj’s or how friendly it is. Hopefully with the digital thing, tracks will dropped in or mixed differently, beats wont be a necessary to mix with and instead the beginning or ending of a track can have other sounds mixed to a predefined tempo set on the software/hardware.

My 1p

Oh!!.....how dare you say you dont give a **** about DJs!!......dont you know how important they are? Dont you want them to play your tracks out?

hehehehe.

Ive spent nearly 8 years worshipping dj's and I respect them, some of them

But I dont see why I should shape my sound to suit anyone elses interest, its something I did in the past and I saw it as a mistake. I never really had the balls to make a weird intro for example because in the back of the mind I knew it would put a lot of dj's off. Thats not what making music is all about for me, Im more about music than the dj.
20-01-2006, 02:34 PM
The Divide

But this is kind of going off topic now so :lol:
20-01-2006, 02:40 PM
Jay Pace

Vinyl has limited techno.
But so would any other format.
Its just been the dominant format for ever, and its limitations are well known.
20-01-2006, 02:50 PM
gumpy green

on the fuk the dj front---hell yeh make it hard for me to mix i want a chanllenge.......maybe it would help push folks away from strickly beatmatching if it was a bit harder to do so with speed changes etc......
20-01-2006, 02:57 PM
TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumpy green

on the fuk the dj front---hell yeh make it hard for me to mix i want a chanllenge.......maybe it would help push folks away from strickly beatmatching if it was a bit harder to do so with speed changes etc......

Damn straight...

DJing with DJ-friendly vinyl is childs play, at best.
20-01-2006, 03:01 PM
The Divide

yea :clap:
20-01-2006, 10:36 PM
holotropik

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechMouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumpy green

on the fuk the dj front---hell yeh make it hard for me to mix i want a chanllenge.......maybe it would help push folks away from strickly beatmatching if it was a bit harder to do so with speed changes etc......

Damn straight...

DJing with DJ-friendly vinyl is childs play, at best.

yep.
21-01-2006, 11:05 AM
Mindful

Some great pionts.
Espesh concerning whats been said about intros and dj friendly music.
It realy is limiting to what you can do and as said it is in the back of your mind(well my mind)how certain things would affect the guy whos going to play your music(I realy should stick a ride in there so it doesnt sound shit when someones mixing it in or I want to do somthin weird in the intro or with the time sig but should realy leave it till well in to the track)
Of course theirs more examples I could give and the ones I gave are possibly shit ones but.

I realy need to stop mentioning Ableton in my post but.....with Ableton this is no longer a problem for the guy making the music.
21-01-2006, 11:52 AM
holotropik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindful

Some great pionts.
Espesh concerning whats been said about intros and dj friendly music.
It realy is limiting to what you can do and as said it is in the back of your mind(well my mind)how certain things would affect the guy whos going to play your music(I realy should stick a ride in there so it doesnt sound shit when someones mixing it in or I want to do somthin weird in the intro or with the time sig but should realy leave it till well in to the track)
Of course theirs more examples I could give and the ones I gave are possibly shit ones but.

I realy need to stop mentioning Ableton in my post but.....with Ableton this is no longer a problem for the guy making the music.

...yep.
23-01-2006, 02:50 PM
gumpy green

Has Vinyl Limited Techno ?

no the dj's using it have.......check out hiphop scene ...thers soo much folks doing so much crazy shit.....we should imbrace it plus add in the techno fx and shit.......thers no limit, no no limits, well reach for the sky, no valley to deep, no mountain to high.......2unlimited knew whats up
23-01-2006, 03:05 PM
dirty_bass

I think the point is being skipped onto the DJ
The point has vinyl limited techno in terms of what is getting made.
Yes.
for a start, there are very few viable techno albums that aren`t just a collection of tracks that were released on vinyl.
Therefore a collection of 6min tunes.
23-01-2006, 03:16 PM
gumpy green

yup but that aint vynils fault.....its producers just wanting to put out stuff for djs...

ther aint nuthing holding anybody back from writing a good flowing techno album which for instance tells a story...or whateva .

i recon its the producers themselves that hold therself back in this sence.
23-01-2006, 03:17 PM
gumpy green

i for one would luv to hear more of albums that wernet as you say collection of 6mins tracks..

bring it on.....we need it 100percent.
23-01-2006, 04:47 PM
Sunil

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumpy green

i for one would luv to hear more of albums that wernet as you say collection of 6mins tracks..

bring it on.....we need it 100percent.

Definitely. There's an extraordinarily low amount of albums being released though. If the market allowed it and some more producers were up for it, it would be great.
23-01-2006, 04:55 PM
dirty_bass

Yes, your right, it is the producers that have held back. But the limitations of vinyl have been one of the reasons. It can put you into a mindset.
And the market has been driven by vinyl sales.
However things are changing, and with the advent of the digital era, hopefully we could see a lot of change and innovation musically, in terms of the structure of the music etc.

however, I totally understand the vinyl limitation.
I`ve just started a new label, and it`s aimed at experimental stuff. It will be released digitally, and is already on vinyl, however for the vinyl release I have already had to apply certain limitations.
23-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Sunil

Indeed, I agree. Making tracks with the thoughts of a techno 12" in mind can be limiting. However if there were more open minded labels out there that didn't mind being whatever the hell they wanted to be, then you might have a bit more individuality.

I guess as a label you need some cash to afford to take chances if something doesn't go right. Take a Gigolo or B-Pitch.. often very hit and miss, but at the same time doing exactly want they want to do. I remember Ellen Allien telling me that for some releases she was doing in excess of 10,000 or so units, while the next might have done a couple of hundred.
23-01-2006, 06:23 PM
dirty_bass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunil

I guess as a label you need some cash to afford to take chances if something doesn't go right. Take a Gigolo or B-Pitch.. often very hit and miss, but at the same time doing exactly want they want to do. I remember Ellen Allien telling me that for some releases she was doing in excess of 10,000 or so units, while the next might have done a couple of hundred.

Well, I don`t know if I can afford it, but I`m doing it anyway.
I just figured, to hell with it, I need to do something purely for my own satisfaction, If I invest love and money into the project then hopefully someone will appreciate the effort and the risk, but it`s more about just doing it.
I fully encourage anyone to do the same. It`s better than blowing the money on sky or brand name clothes or something.
23-01-2006, 06:50 PM
Ritzi Lee

Please don't blame the vinyl.
Blame the people.
23-01-2006, 07:04 PM
dirty_bass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritzi Lee

Please don't blame the vinyl.
Blame the people.

Well you can hardly blame people for the time limitation put on a track length due to vinyl.
nor can you blame them for not being able to rinse the stereo field due to vinyl.
Of course you can go over these lengths, but then the cut gets quiter and a lot of DJ`s became snobby and wouldn`t play anything that wasn`t stupidly loud etc.
So yes, it`s partly people, but the limitations vinyl have placed ont he music needs to be acknowldged