"techno is too white"

as quoted from a recent magazine cover article with dave clarke.
i did think it through and reached a few conclusions.
techno, i feel is colourless in who it appeals to, but has definitions within its expression.
example: jackin stuff is clearly super black, though not exclusively written by black artists.
on another angle, the total flat out 4/4 approach could be described as distinctly white, but again not produced by exclusively white artists.

i would agree with dave on these points:
there is less total black sound to the techno released nowadays. there is no major movement for jackin chicago sounds at present and there are very few actually black artists who do that really well. ie green velvet, rush.
the majority of what has been present on the market is scandinavian, neapolitan, london acid, eastern block and the more 'white' edge as described above.

now before i dig a hole for you all to bury yourself in, or cause mark a headache by starting potentially inflammatory threads we must first all agree:
this is not a race issue as such, the lack of 'black techno' by description is not due to some considered 'white takeover'. it just seems that the market hasnt paid attention to these areas while other trends have flourished.
this is not a racist thread, i didnt read the article, but the cover qoute that i have used to title this thread got me thinking.

what does it make anyone else think?

some good points tony, although there are a lot of black artists still producing good techno music, but I see your point.

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Originally Posted by Tony

what does it make anyone else think?

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i agreed with most of what he was saying, it's like soul and funk, they were developed and pioneered by black people, the same way a lot of techno has been. if you look at it now, there's no black Detroit heads doing anything particular noteworthy, certainly not for the dancefloor, the same goes for DJ Funk and those guys, they make sweet fa as well. I think what Clarke is mainly referring to is the Ghetto techno stuff, although he's been making this point for a few years now already! i think the "techno is too white" thing has been blown up a bit too much, however there is some truth to it when you consider the amount of non descript European techno fodder being churned out over the last few years, one thing that must be said for UR/Detroit/Chicago etc. is that they haven't knocked out releases for the sake of it like many of their white counterparts.

I would say it's more down 2 influences n what u grew up around with then colour (I do understand we r not going racial here)...

I am white as fuc* but still luv my booty, most times I go abroad I can always guess the shocked face of the people picking me up at the airport.. I mean they all expect a big Tattoed/ pierced Black MF... they get this short fatty white prepy guy... :dontevengothere:

But I am Latin there is loads of Africans in Portugal, so U kinda grow up around those sounds, smells, etc.. and u take it in.

But I guess it's harder 2 have a more funked/ souldfull sound if u live in a cold/ damp/ industrial place...

But I can remember a few white boys doing the "blac* thang"... Rees Urban, Paul Langley, Ruben Anderson, etc...

So I would say more in the way of climat/ melting (or not) pot/ lanscape, etc... then race/ colour!!

Z

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

I think it has zero absolute zero to do with colour.
If your in the "black community or urban community" which are two totally different things.
It isn't exactly accepted by your peers to listen to this music we love.
Most of the time I tell people to shut the f*ck up when I put techno on, because the pop culture of america feeds people what they should be listening to I.e. 50 cent.
hearing Dave Clarke say this and get credit for stating the obvious was like duh.
No sh*t Sherlock.
It doesn't matter what colour techno is the more sub categories we keep giving it and separating as we go along the more separitist this music will be, theres enough nepotism.
Now were gonna have black white spanish techno?
N*gga please!!!!!!

just checking this thread for turmoil, as many threads have turned so on this board. but this is looking good.
productive chat and positive personal reflections. although anx has summed it all up so far.

Downwards Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:50 pm Post subject:
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some good points tony, although there are a lot of black artists still producing good techno music, but I see your point

definitely are!!!! and even black artists writing white styles, but these arent definitive terms, just more descriptive.
the obvious artists who write black 'sounding' techno arent necerserily black. but the sound is instinctive as to its colour and influence, and of course subjective.
more of everything for me. i just thought this was an interesting topic to chew on, and theres been some sound quotes
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Originally Posted by anx

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

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Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

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Originally Posted by 1992

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Originally Posted by anx

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

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Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

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i think you are all missing the point here, it's not a race battle. Clarke is making the point that when he got into techno it was funky and being made by black people, and now there's **** all black people making techno...maybe he feels techno has lost a bit of its funk??? i'd certainly have to agree with him.

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Originally Posted by 1992

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anx

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

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Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

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you always get them dont ya :lol:

1992 - READ Tony's post properly.

"Techno has become too white" or "Techno isn't black enough", is there a middle ground to Techno? Er, no. The nature of Techno is that it will do what it wants to. I certainly don't believe that being a black Techno producer means that everything you produce would have to have a stereotypical black sound (funk, soul etc.). Conversely being a white Techno producer doesnt mean that your sound would have to be stereotypically banging and loopy.
I dont think that Techno is either too much of anything, I've got funky stuff, minimal stuff, nosebleed stuff etc. All good.
After listening to Daves album I can't say that he's done anything thats new in the slightest and his coment about Techno being too white as far as I'm concerned is just to gain column inches.
Bad Brains (if anyone remembers them) didn't exsist to make Rock more black they just rocked.

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Originally Posted by 1992

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Originally Posted by anx

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

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Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

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thats not the point here at all. people of diferent races ARE diferent...they look diferent and probably think diferent. their ancesters grew up in diferent soroundings and conditions and that is in their genes. their culture is diferent. i guess its gonna all level up with time tho. so races are diferent from each other and that will influence the music as well making some separations between "white" and "black" techno . kinda have a feeling alot of people here use anti racial talk in a way that "all human races are the SAME" rather than "all human races are equal".

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

It doesn't matter what colour techno is the more sub categories we keep giving it and separating as we go along the more separitist this music will be, theres enough nepotism.
Now were gonna have black white spanish techno?
N*gga please!!!!!!

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i agree with you as well. i actualy dont see the point of this discussion at all. maby it has a point, but its probably totaly irrelevant .

I reckon the reasons will be simple , nothing to do with colour or any shit like that. Just reckon some of the black producers may just have lost a bit of passion for it or may even think they've taken their productions as far as they can for the moment. Just as some of the white boys will have lost their passion too.

For the likes of Ghetto techno , to me it must come to a point where you can't do much else about " Ass and titties" etc ( just my opinion and probably not very balanced as I don't listen to a lot of it, but I did buy a few Ghetto records a few years back ). Perhaps they are just biding their time until Techno swings back round to where they feel they are at with their music.

Also a lot of the black producers of Techno made MASSIVE names for themselves straight away and produced a few Classic tracks. This means that they will pretty much be busy all the time making DJ appearances and stuff , so if they aren't getting that "itch" to produce then they'll just keep earning the bucks through Club appearances.

Yet another reason to contribute to Dave Clarke being a totally clueless arrogant cunt.

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene because of who are the key innovators... but not exclusively and the door are open to all - but you can't drag em screaming they've gotta wonna turn up.

So long as the pissed hooligan twats stay away who cares about race?

Anyway it depends what you call white - lots of very tanned Italians and Spanish come out in London.

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Originally Posted by jonnyspeed

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene because of who are the key innovators... but not exclusively and the door are open to all - but you can't drag em screaming they've gotta wonna turn up.

So long as the pissed hooligan twats stay away who cares about race?

Anyway it depends what you call white - lots of very tanned Italians and Spanish come out in London.

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techno a white scene?

segrigation is bullshit

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Originally Posted by jonnyspeed

Black, white, rich, poor... all rubblish. techno is a white scene and D&B is a black scene .

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That was straight ignorant.

this whole thread is

WTF i thought this was about soul and lack thereof in 4/4 techno

but now this is becomming ignorant.

topic closed untill you guys can grow up and get a bit more educated.

I wasn't being a bigot I was just saying that in terms of the majority of punters to underground techno nights are white - well in London, suppose. Go down 414 in Brixton - a massively black area, black bouncers, black bar staff, 95% white punters. Go out to a underground Drum&Bass night in East London and the situation is reversed. Pakistani/Indian/Bangla attendance to techno nights is especially low whilst Chinese and Japanese seem to love it.

I'm not saying I like it, just the way it is, well from what I've witnessed in London. I think it comes down to general cultural taste.

Maybe different elsewhere and in different club?


Peace.

Bad Brains (if anyone remembers them) didn't exsist to make Rock more black they just rocked.[/quote]


and fishbone man, they where wikid!!!!!

i come from birmingham where black and asian people are, i think i'm right in saying, in majority. there are certainly major players in the world of techno or who write black 'sounding' techno, but there arent many actual black people who acknowledge that a good chunk of techno is a black creative movement. they may look up to thier heroes in d'n'b or hip hop, but techno is just as relevant for them to find heroes in.
for example, i cant imagine walking in to my local african social club and asking to do a detroit night. it just wouldnt compute with people. instead of black youngsters praising dizzee rascal and his butterfly knife weilding antics they should have tracks by fanon flowers, dknox and green velvet in their collection RIGHT NEXT TO beyer surgeon etc.
i'm into the lot too, its just that i dont find good booty too often.
more of everything please!!!

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Originally Posted by DSP

WTF i thought this was about soul and lack thereof in 4/4 techno

but now this is becomming ignorant.

topic closed untill you guys can grow up and get a bit more educated.

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Sweeping statements are just as ignorant and are also how racism catches fire. This is a highly contentious argument. Kraftwerk versus Juan Atkins anyone???. Does it matter. Tony is right, more booty stuff please as far as I am concerned. Charlie Hall got on the case with Projex and fair play. The following is a fact: Black men and women can make and play banging/soulful funky Techno just as white men and women can make banging/soulful funky Techno regardless of how well they are known. But is it right for me to state men before women in the above argument? Shit that's sexist. Any other race on this planet apart from black or white who produce Techno. Lordy, there are. Anyone forget about that? Course not, racism is a hot topic and one you can show to your friends how right on you are while forgetting how one dimensional you are.
Not surprising that Dave Clarke causes so much ire amongst people...SUCKERS!
Anyone remeber HMS?

It's true this argument sucks lock the topic.
Be a lil bit more humanitarian people, who give a sh*t about what,
I'm Rican Italian and grew up a Metalhead who knew how to breakdance go figure.

in my opinion there is alot of funky techno still being made, alot of geezer,s tunes are funky as hell and if the a-side of hydraulix 20 isnt funky then i dont know what is

Yeah but what does funky have to do with black, lolololololol.
that just sounds so funny though.
In my head i keep seeing marley Marl saying "it's gots ta be Fonky"

im not looking at this as a race issue, im just looking at it as a lack of funky techno issue, wich i dont find to be the case

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

It's true this argument sucks lock the topic.
Be a lil bit more humanitarian people, who give a sh*t about what,
I'm Rican Italian and grew up a Metalhead who knew how to breakdance go figure.

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Why are you advocating censorship?

I'm not advocating censorship I don't want to promote stupidity.

i think sam is right, there have been some pretty stupid comments on here

f u c k ignorance, f u c k loneliness, f u c k reality, f u c k society :lol:

Neither do I. But discussion is not stupid regardless of how you feel about what is said. Censorship for me is a very hot topic. I concur that this topic will very quickly go absolutely nowhere.
However, Dave Clarke raised a point which obviously merited some discussion although it was sloppily put. I myself have witnessed arguments as to how Techno is progressing. Is it getting too 4/4 banging and loopy? Where is the soul and funk? Where is the original soul of Techno? Err, it's ****ing music for ****s sake.
Sorry mate but telling anyone on a forum to lock a topic is pretty lame.
Fahrenheit 451 anyone? (I may have got the degrees wrong). For Christs sake I've seen some threads on other Techno boards about how crap Jeff Mills mixing/sets are lately? And??? Live at the Liquid Room for me is a benchmark. I couldn't give a toss what he's like now, he started something for me and regardless of how many "Black" dj's are doing Techno now is irrelevant. It's what you've learnt from your peers that counts.

Sorry, that meant to say it's ****ing music for ****'s sake.

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Originally Posted by Buttman

Yet another reason to contribute to Dave Clarke being a totally clueless arrogant cunt.

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i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

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Originally Posted by Sunil

i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

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I am infalable.

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Originally Posted by Sunil

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Originally Posted by 1992

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Originally Posted by anx

what the **** does color have to do with anything :roll:

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Exactly. I think some people get their jollies off making arguments like this. They wish to claim that their race is better then another. :nono:

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i think you are all missing the point here, it's not a race battle. Clarke is making the point that when he got into techno it was funky and being made by black people, and now there's **** all black people making techno...maybe he feels techno has lost a bit of its funk??? i'd certainly have to agree with him.

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Ohh. Well if its like that then I'll agree too! All the funk got left back in 1994. That was when all the funk left the techno for the jungle. I hate this myself, I loved all those 4/4 beats with the chopped breakbeats, wicked crazy sounds, and good vibes. Even though techno no longer has most of this, it still has that lovely hard driving 909 beat and I'd say that even though it doesn't have the breakbeats or extremely excellent sounds (like the riffs in 2 Da Core "Rub A Dub"), it still has a nice vibe. Thats why I was looking for a forum like this, because I've gotten really sick of how non-funky and non-vibey drum and bass has gotten. At least hard techno hasn't losts its way after all these years. In fact I think it may have gotten better. That Brain Zentz "D-Clash" tune is totaly amazing for example, its totaly got that 92 energy which I crave to hear.

Also BTW: All of the recent techno sets I've downloaded this month have been really amazing. Maybe I'm bias because I've become so sick of what the DnB people have been doing but I think the current techno is pretty darn cool and that includes the MarkEG mix that someone posted in here. Sure its not as cool as the hard as hell 1992 jungle tekno ardkore, but its cool in its own loopy trackly way. I actually hated minimal techno with a passion till I heard Carl Cox and Underworld play sets at the ex-nyc nightclub Twilo. What a great time it was to dance to that stuff and to know exactly when the 909 OH & CH pattern would kick in and when the beats would drop. That predictability is what makes it cool for me, and you still can't hear real techno on the radio which makes me feel special when I blast it out of my car windows (when everyone else around here blasts M&M rap, yes blasting music in the car is my guilty pleasure). :lol:

Also to say that only people of african decent can make good techno is quite silly. Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk to the scene such as Slipmatt, Seduction, Ratty, Waxdoctor, and Stu Allen. Sadly they've either retired or lost their touch because the music scenes changed.

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Originally Posted by 1992

What a great time it was to dance to that stuff and to know exactly when the 909 OH & CH pattern would kick in and when the beats would drop. That predictability is what makes it cool for me,

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I feel like crying.

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Originally Posted by 1992

Also to say that only people of african decent can make good techno is quite silly. Theres plenty of good white techno artists who once brought the funk .

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Nobody said that.

the only reason i think this thread should be closed is - you're all agreeing with each other but getting passionate about it.
we all know anyone of any colour can write good music, whatever the genre. but i'm just missing a bit of ghetto booty stuff, or a nice come back for some jackin chicago.
no one has been racist on here, but i think people are being over PC which is the only way that its gone pear shaped.
your all top blokes, you know there is no colour boundaries to techno, but i hope you all notice what i was trying to discuss.
HELL, i dont even know what clarke said in that interview. he may have summed it up eloquently, or he could have come across as a racist. i dont know, and i rightly dont care.
i put this post up for some nice hearty conversation, but on reflection 'music and race, now theres two topics people dont have much passion about'.
no, this should be a fun conversation about 'wheres the booty?'. totally harmless, anyone who treats it otherwise should be chucked off.

The booty is by Kne Deep's camp.
Jack I believe was the new album?

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

The booty is by Kne Deep's camp.
Jack I believe was the new album?

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"Jack" was on Projex, excellent triple pack.

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Originally Posted by Buttman

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Originally Posted by Sunil

i'm not saying I think everything Clarke says is bang on *but* let's get real here, he's no mug Buttman, he's been around the block and experienced a lot within the techno scene....arrogant maybe, clueless I don't think so!

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I am infalable.

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oh right, you are *infallible*, well you just proved yourself wrong there ;)

I don't think this is a race agrument, its more ethnicity and culture. I think that techno resonates with anglo-saxon and East Asian cultures because we are very electronic driven. Other cultures are more driven by other influences such as latin and african beats which have different influences from local music.

The recent cross over techno tracks I've heard in terms of dub, latin and african do work. Maybe if these individual styles could gather more scale, like Drum & Bass and Asian Dub has in the UK, then I think we would get more cultural diversity.

At the last Anti-World night at SE1 in London, these styles of tracks were played by Geezer and Chris Liberator but only in isolation of full on techno/acid. I don't think I saw a black face all night, but I was a bit mashed. Howver when I go to 100% Dynamite London's main Dub night it is a true Heinz 57 variety of cultures.

Peace.

thanks for praising my mix 1992, but it's totally irrevant to the topic. ps jesus i hope that mix isn't predictable too!!! :lol:

i haven't locked this topic because i have to say, i do wonder why there's not as many black ppl producing techno as their used to be in the early eighties. i find this topic totally exciting. i always put it down to the fact that the early detroit techno had so much soul, the fact it was being made in detroit and it was a concept between a few black friends. cool but techno has developed into something else.

now i see techno as music that can easily touch different cultures and people regardless of race and ethnic background. that's one of the reasons why i love this music so much. but the problem is that black ppl are targeted with hip-hop/r+b and many of them can easily relate to it. so they latch onto it as kids. techno? hmmm... it's gonna be hard for black kids to discover techno. hip-hop offers way much more excitement.

only my thoughts but, hey perhaps you can see why i didn't lock this topic. ;)

dont lock it....there are some replyes here that i would guess were written by monkeys and not people (no this is not a racial thing again)....i just hope i dont realise im a total idiot as well cuz i would really get depressed and cut my veins right open in the bathtub :neutral:

you do know how to get evryones juices going dont ya grainger:)

with me being only eighteen i dont have loads to say on this. But....
From listening and buying records. There did seem to be a lot more soul in lots of the older techno records. todays tunage seems very mechanical/dark/plain ****ed up. But it seems there was a lot more heart in the tunes back then. Not that there isnt now, it justs seems that back then there were more soulful/funkyness to the tunage. More stuff to wiggle you ass to, rather than pound the night away.

Suppose from a London point of view that's the whole point... it ain't intelligent, it ain't from detroit but its fackin' avin it!

All my Indian friends hate techno because they say that they can't get off with women as easily has going out to somewhere that won't let you wear trainers and plays 2 step/gararge.