not getting paid properly at gigs

is anyone else sick of this bullshit?

last night i was asked to step in to play a gig for a dj who (for whatever reason) couldnt make it.

this was a very very last minute thing and the money wasnt great at all (€100) but as i knew that lads running the techno room at this night i said i'd do it.

end of the night comes and the main promoter walks up to me and hands me €50. this was after me using my own money to buy drinks and to get to the gig.

all in all i spent nearly 20 to get in in a cab (with my gear) 20 on drinks for me and the missus (we werent offered 1 single drink by the promoter) and 20 to get home again.

so basically fo going out, when i already had a night in with the missus planned, im down €10!!!

i said to the promoter that it wasnt on and i had agreed a price with the techno room.. the promoters answer was..

"well we barely broke even!!!!!"

now heres a little advice for promoters (from someone who has promoted in the past)

IF YOU'RE NOT PREPARED TO EITHER LOSE MONEY OR PAY PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR YOU THEN DONT GET INTO PROMOTING!!!

IF YOUR BOSS TURNED TO YOU ON A FRIDAY AND SAID "IM ONLY PAYING YOU HAVE YOUR WAGES THIS WEEK CAUSE WE DIDNT DO TOo WELL" - WOULD YOU ACCEPT IT???

LIKE **** YOU WOULD... SO DONT BE SO RUDE AS TO TAKE THE PISS OUT OF PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR YOU.. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE DOING YOU A FAVOUR WHEN YOU'RE IN A STICKY SITUATION.

rant over...

and b4 anyone thinks im being a "diva"

i have played many many times for nothing but transport (and i've done so for quite a few people on this board.

i've turned down the full amount from promoters just so that we could ALL leave with a bit of cash in our pockets.

i've played many gigs for a lot less than i should just so a promoter can pay a hefty fee for a headline dj..

and i've no problem doing this because the people i do it for a) treat me well on other occasions - b) wont let me buy a drink if im doing them a favour and c) make sure all my costs are covered and make sure that im not out of pocket for helping them out..


but last night was a complete and utter pisstake. :whoops:


anyway big shouts out to the artists that have to take a cut in their wages because of shoddy promoters.. i've played gigs with a good few of you.. you know who you aer and you deserve respect for keeping a level head..

and a big shout out to all you promoters that treat your artists good.. you know who you are.

the rest of you chancers can **** right off.. if making money off the back of someone elses work is all you care about then you have no place on our scene.

i dont think your being unreasonable. ide be pissed off too chap :grr:

i think that's fair enough mate really, there's only so much you can do innit.

i recently have had a similar incident with a night that has now been cancelled by the club they were at for taking the piss.
was told i would be paid 50 quid for my set. again i have played for some people on the board and have never asked for a penny i appreciate people giving me the chance to play at their nights. this night contacted me and offered me the money i didn't ask for it but i knew it would cost me 20 quid in a texi there and twenty quid back so i was doing it for next to nothing anyway.
to top it all off 1 of their dj's was late so i went on first as well as my set later on till the first dj came. when he did come i passed him the headphones he did the 3 worst mixes i've ever heard said he didn't want to play! so i carry on playing till next guy turnes up and again he turns up half and hour so i've been playing for a total for an hour and half then played my set later. i left before end of the night as i couldn't be bothered staying till the end and was gonna pick my money up the next day.
guy rings and says he can't afford to pay me they lost money and can he pay me week later. not happy but say ok as nothing i can really do! thats about 3 or 4 weeks ago i've tried ringing him no response, he's not even bothered to ring me either. what a prick. found out he owes one of the other lads who played 100 quid as well from the last time he played for them. the sooner people like this are ou of the scene the better!

yeah, must be shit, nobody likes giving their time, effort and expense to people who aren't grateful for it.

I think alot of these promoters are naieve, they think it's an easy way to make money, then panic when the first few nights they do lose money or struggle to break even.

Name and shame them.

A similar thing happened to a guy from Squatjuice the other week. He was promissed pay but it never happened, probably because the night was poorly organised.

The most positive response was You are the DJ, not the promoter, so it is not your problem if the night doesn't break even.

That's why I lift weights, because then when you grab someone by the shirt collar, it changes the tune a little bit.

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

That's why I lift weights, because then when you grab someone by the shirt collar, it changes the tune a little bit.

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doesnt make much differance how big you are when theres 3/4 lads organising a night with 5 or 6 bouncers from the club to back them up :whoops:

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

That's why I lift weights, because then when you grab someone by the shirt collar, it changes the tune a little bit.

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:laughing::laughing:
ill stick on your good side then horse!!!

tbh rhythmntech, you're lucky you got paid something! i mean at least the lads running it didnt totally **** you over... im sure if you had said, listen im down about 20 quid for the night after that 50, can you sort me out, seeing as we had a deal??? im sure they would oblige!! dublin's is way too small to be getting riled up over it, and it was a last-minute semi-botched job of a night, by the sounds of it.

who was it btw?? :censored:

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

That's why I lift weights, because then when you grab someone by the shirt collar, it changes the tune a little bit.

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how does it ? if the promotor has no money then the promotor has no money plus what if the person you grab by the shirt collar has a knife or is a black belt in martial arts :whoops:

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Originally Posted by stjohn

:laughing::laughing:
ill stick on your good side then horse!!!

tbh rhythmntech, you're lucky you got paid something! i mean at least the lads running it didnt totally **** you over... im sure if you had said, listen im down about 20 quid for the night after that 50, can you sort me out, seeing as we had a deal??? im sure they would oblige!! dublin's is way too small to be getting riled up over it, and it was a last-minute semi-botched job of a night, by the sounds of it.

who was it btw?? :censored:

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thats the thing.. i did say all that.. and it certainly wasnt a last minute thing..

it was trancelation.. a fairly big night :whoops:

I wouldnt be happy either mate, especially ending up a £10 down

when i do get paid, i usually waste my money in the club on various shit and end up going home skint anyway....take up law or summat if ya wanna make money!!

sorry baz, i understand your pissed off mate, but shit happens in this game, just dont do any favours next time without some solid cash upfront!!

just take it as a lesson learnt.

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Originally Posted by fatcollective

when i do get paid, i usually waste my money in the club on various shit and end up going home skint anyway....take up law or summat if ya wanna make money!!

sorry baz, i understand your pissed off mate, but shit happens in this game, just dont do any favours next time without some solid cash upfront!!

just take it as a lesson learnt.

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+1

Make them sign a contract next time. its more professional and means you have a leg to stand on.

@antonio... i hear that.

muscle means people dont mess - sad it has to come to that, but your environment is different to ours - respect means more there i think.

As a matter of interest my fee varies depending on place.

think about this though.. what if it happens across international boundaries.

a friend of mine is owed 1000 euros from a recent event... think he will see the money?

bet not unless he hires a lawyer over there.

the industry is a skank in the main, unless you play with the big boys - then things become based on legal agreements. Its a situation most people POO POO because they think it makes them look to 'establishment' but i think thats a false positive.

if you deal with a promoter who is genuine, they will be happy to sign an agreement - it makes things friendlier. no more aggressive.

2p worth innit.

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Originally Posted by Stella Boy

how does it ? if the promotor has no money then the promotor has no money plus what if the person you grab by the shirt collar has a knife or is a black belt in martial arts :whoops:

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Yeah, but a lot of this comes down to the fact that a promoter knows he/she can **** around with someone if it is a local act they are not obligated by contract to pay.. or in some cases is a friend or familiar acquaintance.

The fact is that in the back of the minds of many promoters, or in their sums prior to a gig, support acts or local acts come way down the line.. after practically every other expense. Sure, there might be a ballpark sum provisionally made out, but that can usually open to change, unlike any other set expense of a night. I guess it comes down to people just really enjoying or wanting to play out, and promoters being aware of that fact.

If the promoter here agreed a fee with Barry, then they should have paid it. I doubt they asked or expected certain other guests to take a cut either.
Now I'm sure if they explained the situation to Barry and ASKED him would he mind accepting a little less then Barry might not have minded so much.. rather than just throwing him half of the agreed fee, after he had just got them out of a last minute hole.

There are *lots* of good promoters out there, but a word of warning to people out there - if a promoter does not discuss anything with you regarding money prior to a gig, do not accept this. Chances are they don't really value you if they haven't put a value on your fee/money, and took time to mention it to you.

Every DJ has to go through this stage of doing gigs for nothing or very little; but that stage shouldn't last too long.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

+1

Make them sign a contract next time. its more professional and means you have a leg to stand on.

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Yeah true. It's not always the way things pan out though, especially if you know the people already. Also, I'd imagine a lot of people would naturally not ask the promoter to sign a contract for fear that it might affect that booking or other future bookings with the promoter. i.e. Promoter going "who the hell does this guy think he is?" etc.

It really depends what level you're on in many cases - whether you're Jeff Mills or Joe Bloggs.

Still though, anyone who is in the game for a while and who genuinely adds to a lineup, should feel within their rights to make a proper agreement with the promoter. And if the promoter has a problem with this or fails to pay to agreed fee after the gig, then they aren't being good promoters.

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Originally Posted by Sunil

If the promoter here agreed a fee with Barry, then they should have paid it. I doubt they asked or expected certain other guests to take a cut either.
Now I'm sure if they explained the situation to Barry and ASKED him would he mind accepting a little less then Barry might not have minded so much.. rather than just throwing him half of the agreed fee, after he had just got them out of a last minute hole.

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100%.

if the guy had come to me and said "look, we lost our bollox here tonight" then i woulda said fine. cover my expenses ie taxi's and the few drinks.

but like i said i came out a tenner out of pocket, which although isnt really that much money, is still a loss.

im not blaming the guy who ran the techno room. he's a genuine guy who was left standing outside the club, with no back-up, as i was still argueing my case. the main promoter had already left at this stage. the guy running the techno room has also been screwed as he paid for the original dj's flights and never got money for that either.

what sunil said about main artists is true aswell..

a dublin dj (lets call him dj pressured :; ) was headlining the techno room. he got paid EVEN though he a) didnt play techno and b) got asked to step down 50 mins into his set as he cleared the techno room. but because of either who he is or who (from the promoters) knows him, he got his full payement.

i wont go into how much that was as thats his business , but sunil knows who im talking about and believe me sunil, it was too much for said individual..

anyway lesson learnt.

im not gonna change my way of working with dublin promters because as i've already said, the ones i generally do work with are top class blokes.. but i wont be playing for this lot again and i would advise any dublin dj's who do to sort out the finances long b4 they're left standing on the street with just enough to get them home.

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Originally Posted by fatcollective

when i do get paid, i usually waste my money in the club on various shit and end up going home skint anyway....take up law or summat if ya wanna make money!!

sorry baz, i understand your pissed off mate, but shit happens in this game, just dont do any favours next time without some solid cash upfront!!

just take it as a lesson learnt.

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i know dude.. we've both been in the same place when it happened :)

but i woulda thought making the effort to do someone a favour makes you immune to it? :laughing:

one last point.

the promters words were

"we barely broke even"

not we lost money.

so basically they didnt end up in a hole yet werent prepared to reach into their own pockets. between 4/5 of them it woulda worked out a 10er each. not a lot lost and safe in the knowledge that they pay up. conscience clear.

hmmm... i dont knwo those lads...but yea that sounds a bit odd.
****in tranceheads wha?>

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Originally Posted by stjohn

hmmm... i dont knwo those lads...but yea that sounds a bit odd.
****in tranceheads wha?>

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sorry.. my mistake it was reactive.. bloody old school heads.. at least with trance hippies they probably pay up.. bad karma doesnt mix with hippies :laughing: :laughing:

this was a horrible "ben sherman & kickers" kinda nite


no offence to any of the old school heads on here but in dublin it has become a dangerous joke of a scene.

Swings and roundabouts this.

Personally, for all gigs abroad I use a contract, with an advance, so at least some of my ass is covered.
In the UK I generally only take bookings via mates, or people who I know indirectly or directly, with or without contract.
If it`s a small or new event, I will always state, even if things turn out bad, as long as my expenses are covered, ie travel and a drinkie, then I won`t go ape. If a promoter can`t even have the decency to sort out your expenses, to an event THEY got you to make the EFFORT and EXPENSE to get too, then they deserve a good heavy talking to, AT THE VERY LEAST.

For me though, a gig is 1-3 weeks work building a pa, so I do tend to get a little irate if ****ed about.

There are some dire promoters out there, but the case is, find out about who you are playing for. Get some info and then decide if you want to take the gig.

A contract isn`t some evil thing that makes you an arrogant tit, it covers both yours and the promoters ass (as most contracts will have a clause where if you don`t show then they can claim on you), so I generally recommend them for bigger gigs and trips abroad.

There`s a 50/50 situation going on when a gig turns bad due to low door count though.
You can blame the promoters for not promoting properly, but also, your fee generally reflects your draw on the door. So if you don`t pull in the bodies yourself, then it`s partly reflected on you as well I think, to some extent at least.

However overall for me, Techno music is something I just enjoy too much to get into the whole gigs for career thing. For the most part it`s a pretty small scene and is getting smaller, and so will have more than it`s fair shair of shoddiness and serious ups and downs until things settle into an equilibrium. I am now much more into just doing gigs with and for people who are genuine lovers of the scene, who do it out of passion, for me the gig is much more than just the time I spend playing my music, I like to be with the people doing the party, and take in their vibe for a while, rather than play, pay, see you another day. That way I never get stressed, I choose when I want to party, and I always enjoy myself.
I`ve started playing more and more free parties in the last few years (after a long time of getting the hell away from it) and I`m am enjoying these more than anything else.

It is a minefield out there, and all of us have and will get screwed over at some point.
The main point I think, is to keep yourself as informed as possible.
We are all whores to some extent, and the need to perform can blind you to some bad things.

has anybody got contacts to any decent promotors then?

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I've don't think I've ever not paid anyone what I've promised/agreed.
Which means that sometimes I don't promise much, but I'd rather people knew upfront what they stood to get from a gig.
Is not your money to hold back. If you make a loss, you make a loss.

I've taken less money from playing, if I know the promoters and know they are suffering. But then at least its my decision to waive, not theirs to not pay me.

I'd say you have every bloody reason to be angry.

It is always pain when you deal with people with no fair-play thinking. I think it is more about personal approach. If the guy dont wanna pay you, he will always have arguments to do so and you will never see your money. No matter if he lost or earn.
I am sure if there would be a will from from his side he would arrange a new date when all the engagements will be solved.

Anyway, I wouldnt blame him that he is a bad promoter and his party end in the hole. You know what. This can happen to everyone, and when it happens it is just on promoter how he deals with money-lost and what priorities he set on all the payments he still needs to deal with.

Nobody likes no-receiving money for the job, but it can happen so next time be safe with contract in your hand and in case of int.national gig you always can have some deposit stated.

its funny how they leave out a few details. it should be something like this:

"sorry mate, I can't pay you cus we barely broke even. We spent all the profits on coke/meth/pills... and you're not as important as coke, meth or pills"

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Originally Posted by Komplex

its funny how they leave out a few details. it should be something like this:

"sorry mate, I can't pay you cus we barely broke even. We spent all the profits on coke/meth/pills... and you're not as important as coke, meth or pills"

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:laughing: :laughing:

promoting is one them things, sometimes your up, sometimes your down. but the main thing is to always pay the agreed price to the talent, and look after em.
Baz, i hope you punched them in the face. coz i would have.

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

promoting is one them things, sometimes your up, sometimes your down. but the main thing is to always pay the agreed price to the talent, and look after em.
Baz, i hope you punched them in the face. coz i would have.

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not my style m8..

im a lover not a fighter :cheese:

but ye.. when i played for you there was no question about the money.. you lot just sorted it and that was that. respect.

At the Pure Techno nights we ALWAYs (AFAIK i dont deal with the money...) pay our acts we book.

its the residents that take the hit if the door doesnt go well

Dirty Bass - For me though, a gig is 1-3 weeks work building a pa, so I do tend to get a little irate if ****ed about...

i know what you mean, a live PA has a lot more work in it than a DJ set. and its a culmination of weeks of work and experimentation.

i dont play the same live set twice, it seems like cheating.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

not my style m8..

im a lover not a fighter :cheese:

but ye.. when i played for you there was no question about the money.. you lot just sorted it and that was that. respect.

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you guys earned it tho in all fairness!:;

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

i dont play the same live set twice, it seems like cheating.

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Well, I feel the same, turning up and banging on some records is one thing, but building a pa for a gig is actually hard work (unless you just play all pre-recorded tracks, naughty naughty). It`s highly rewarding though when it works right? which makes it all worth while.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Well, I feel the same, turning up and banging on some records is one thing, but building a pa for a gig is actually hard work (unless you just play all pre-recorded tracks, naughty naughty). It`s highly rewarding though when it works right? which makes it all worth while.

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+1

also i reckon i would get bored if it was the same over and over..
anyway... thats something for another part of the forum.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

doesnt make much differance how big you are when theres 3/4 lads organising a night with 5 or 6 bouncers from the club to back them up :whoops:

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it does when your sos, have you seen the size of him???

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Originally Posted by wenna

it does when your sos, have you seen the size of him???

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he's only 3ft tall though, so it makes his arms look bigger:cheese:

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

and b4 anyone thinks im being a "diva"

i have played many many times for nothing but transport (and i've done so for quite a few people on this board.

i've turned down the full amount from promoters just so that we could ALL leave with a bit of cash in our pockets.

i've played many gigs for a lot less than i should just so a promoter can pay a hefty fee for a headline dj..

and i've no problem doing this because the people i do it for a) treat me well on other occasions - b) wont let me buy a drink if im doing them a favour and c) make sure all my costs are covered and make sure that im not out of pocket for helping them out..


but last night was a complete and utter pisstake. :whoops:


anyway big shouts out to the artists that have to take a cut in their wages because of shoddy promoters.. i've played gigs with a good few of you.. you know who you aer and you deserve respect for keeping a level head..

and a big shout out to all you promoters that treat your artists good.. you know who you are.

the rest of you chancers can **** right off.. if making money off the back of someone elses work is all you care about then you have no place on our scene.

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Nah I'd be pissed to Baz. **** that mate. If someone is supposed to pay you a flat amount, that doesn't change because they as the promoters didn't do a good enough job promo'ing they're event. That really isn't at all your fault.

Man I've dealt with this a number of times locally as well in the passed. Now I just know which promoters are actually cool and which ones only care for themselves. So it's now just a loss on the bad people's behalf.

50 pounds isn't shit man...especially for any producer out there who spends so much time, money, and effort making tracks and buying gear or records. All of these things equal money....

time=money
gear=money
records=money

there for

gigs+dj/producer=Pay the man dammit!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by wenna

it does when your sos, have you seen the size of him???

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Size means nothing.
Best bouncer I ever worked with was 5ft 6" and a wirey little fecker too.
He dropped many a big meathead iron lifter without even taking a breath.

Best not go down the violence route against promoters unless you are really sure of yourself, if they have the bouncers on their side, you gotta remember those people drop skulls for a living. And in my experience, for the most part, they enjoy a good ruck.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Size means nothing.
Best bouncer I ever worked with was 5ft 6" and a wirey little fecker too.
He dropped many a big meathead iron lifter without even taking a breath.

Best not go down the violence route against promoters unless you are really sure of yourself, if they have the bouncers on their side, you gotta remember those people drop skulls for a living. And in my experience, for the most part, they enjoy a good ruck.

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Agreed, in my bouncing experience you always looked forward to the cocky sonofab*tch who wants a quick melee. I don't think people realize their mentality is to try to fight and hold stance and knock someone out. A bouncer on the other hand has free reign to make things end as quickly as possible, and are trained in liability arts. Meaning the art of throwing you into a table and saying you tripped over a drink during the rumble. Since the other bouncers and the owner and promoter are in cahoots, they will all coaborate the story. Last time I was in a squabble my objective was to end it as quickly as possible. As far as getting stabbed if you see it coming on a definite you want to use your arms as a blocking apparatus, what's a few cuts when your organs being impacted could kill you. Plus chicks love scars man.

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

Plus chicks love scars man.

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:laughing:

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Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

Agreed, in my bouncing experience you always looked forward to the cocky sonofab*tch who wants a quick melee. I don't think people realize their mentality is to try to fight and hold stance and knock someone out. A bouncer on the other hand has free reign to make things end as quickly as possible, and are trained in liability arts. Meaning the art of throwing you into a table and saying you tripped over a drink during the rumble. Since the other bouncers and the owner and promoter are in cahoots, they will all coaborate the story. Last time I was in a squabble my objective was to end it as quickly as possible. As far as getting stabbed if you see it coming on a definite you want to use your arms as a blocking apparatus, what's a few cuts when your organs being impacted could kill you. Plus chicks love scars man.

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Always preferred beating people down with my talk. Far more stisfying having the fool walking away apologising and agreeing with you, without you having to even give a stare down.
Especially when faced with a sawn off.