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Ableton users - how easy to master is this program?
I want start working on a liveset, and I'd like to know how to dj with it.
I've never really taken the time to look at it and I have no real idea how it works.
Was going to buy a bitsream controller to use with it. Looks the business - any thoughts?
Depends how you manage your learning J
go at it for 2 hours a night and your looking at a month to sort it fully.
A serious recommendation is to go on the albeton forums and to visit the tips and tricks section of their forum... its massive and got loads of tips.
my first recommendation is to learn the warp markers first and the screen layouts, they're not that much fun to get around...
Hmmm. I've not got 2 hours a night! Suspect this is going to take a while...
I did a courses on reason and cubase when I was unemployed - time well spent and now I know them inside out. I'd love to get to grips with ableton but I'm not sure when I'll get the chance...
I completely swtiched to Ableton a few months back. Previously I was working in Cubase, but now when I am more familiar with Ableton I never look back.
You can do everything like in other DAWs, but to me it seems to be more "musical" in terms of workflow.. Work with MIDI is bit weak, but hopefully they will improve it one day.
Overall, I dont think it will take you too much time to learn it.
As for the Bitstream, yeah, I've got one and it is great,. Solid construction, no cheap plastic. It has some nice features, like built-in Arp and LFO, ribbon pad, X/Y joypad,. Crossfader seems to be bit flimsy, but I am not using it too often. It can emulate Mackie Control, you can easily edit all parametrs in Bitstream editor and waveidea is updating firmware reguilarly so they are adding new interesting features...
Great advice mate, many thanks.
to DJ it will take no time at all.
To make a PA will take much longer (if you are gonna do it properly), but still I guess a couple of months of hard work will get your first pa out.
Or you can bell me up, and I can come round and show you how??!!
I gave up on Ableton after hours of trying to get it to properly beatmatch. For a programme supposedly designed for it its a bit of a head****. may have to reconsider when my TBx303 arrives next week.
ableton is the best!
u will never learn it all. but doesnt take long to get some wicked noises coming out.
if u used cubase or fruity or reason anyway, try rewiring it to start off with and then use he abelton mixer and effects etc
Mr Bass,Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Im very intrested on how to use it for a P.A Properly. I have had a mess about with it, but just wondered if you could give me / point me in the direction of some good tips on the best way to set it out ? Such as how much of its live instrument wise etc.
Any help appreciated :)
You can have as many live instruments as you want
your only limitation is the power of your computer, and of course, the amount of arms and fingers you have.
I find 8-12 tracks of audio and 2-3 live vst synths is about as much as I can physically handle without automation or getting in someone as a partner to do a live pa with me.
I think the secret to a live PA is making it sound like a DJ mix. A lot of PA`s go from kickdrum, to full mix, back down to kick drum, and then next tune repeat process. This kills the momentum in my opinion, so you don`t want to have too many synths and so on running at once as it will impede your ability to make good transitions from tune to tune.
The real secret of making a good pa, I think, is how you split your tunes down so they can go into ableton, and how you place them into the clip view.
I set my stuff out very logically so I can visually see the progression any tune would normally make.
I can then play any tune in any order, but always have a good logical visual structure on the screen so I can work out what to do next, or go wild and never get too lost.
Producion wise it`s no different to making a tune, all the parts should go in pre-eq`d so it all fits together in the mix nicely.
It`s too much for me to go into fully on a forum really, but I can take some screenshots I guess and wack em up so you can see my basic structure.
I am now doing 1-1 ableton Live PA sessions for people now though, so if you are really serious you can book me for a full day and I`ll show you the lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Please do.
Can't be arsed carting your decks to Argentina eh Jay?
I'm learning at the moment too.
Got our new night coming up next month, and I'm starting simple (Ableton DJ set with extra loops and stuff) and looking to add to it as I go along.
Main motivating factor is to be able to beatsync with the VJ software for AV stuff, though eventually I want it to be 100% original stuff.
Stevie D - sounds like a plan. We have an overdue appointment with some beer as it is....
A bit sketchy on taking decks to argentina. Would love to, but its going to cost me £££s to ship them, and i may end up having to pay import tax to get them into the country. Which would suck balls. At the moment I'm looking at selling everything and buying stuff again. Which also sucks balls...
sorry man, thats not true.Quote:
You can do everything like in other DAWs
there's LOADS of things missing from it.
ill give you one.
In place editing.
What you mean by In place editing?Quote:
Originally Posted by RDR
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
Yes would be very intrested in seeing the screenshots, and quite possibly in the 1 on 1 tutition. What sort of damage ? send me a pm about that if you can.
The other thing that inruiges me is how much is really "played Live". For a classic example I was at Mass a few weeks ago and Kevin Energy was doing "Nu Energy Collective Live" (With too much poor scratching as usual)
The thing is he was obviously playing some of the riff's live, but there were some riffs he was trying to make us believe he was playing live, with absolutly no chance he was, far tooo complex, and it just annoyed me.
What are your thoughts on this and do you actualy play any sounds live Dirty?
I pro tools or logic or cubase you can right click on any part and edit it right there with cut copy, paste or any other editor type tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodStar
ableton has to use an external editing program to achieve this.
Ok, I`ll send a pmQuote:
Originally Posted by SlimboyPhatt
As for live, well obviously, techno is sequenced music, you`ll never play in time enough to sound good, so I don`t actually play any notes live. I have been thinking about playing basslines live in my dubstep pa, but not in techno.
What is played live is mixing the various sounds in and out, and controlling the individual filters and effects over them, as well as tweaking the vst`s live.
It would be physically impossible to play live notes in as well as controlling all the audio, vst`s and effects, so no matter what you do, something would have to be automated.
As for Kevin energy playing live, I think he is in the lab 4 camp, where essentially it is all pre-recorded, and they just mime to the noise.Horrible and dishonest.
I agree, its disgusting!!! I have heard mixed views on wether K90 actualy does it live or not too. I think he does ( although I know he has a back up Dat)Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_bass
I know K90 used to be all dat, I saw him from backstage miming before, so I know he`s been a faker, wether or not he still does I don`t know.
Faking is rife in the trance scene though.
Yea... the VJ software... hmm... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by TechMouse
Cripes.
id say the bitstream would take longer than Ableton!! millions of buttons!!
Yeah, that's true. Ableton lacks in this area, but still some things can be done, but in bit more complicated way. hopefully they will improve it, one day..Quote:
Originally Posted by RDR
there isn't much you can't do with clips in ableton, that you can do in other programs. The clip options are still there, its just a different way of workingQuote:
Originally Posted by RDR
Not much fun for sequencing though...Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboyslim
IMO of course.
i love the virtual cuts you can do in ableton that don't do anything to the original file / clip / loopQuote:
Originally Posted by RDR
beatmatching in ableton is a piece of piss.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
Depends on the program material, straight 4 to the floor is easy, try it with tracks featuring real drummers and there's a crap load of warping to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Microdot
and even IF the auto warping by some material manages to warp things near what they should be there's lots to do.
once its done its done though... unless the ASD file becomes corrupt and you have to re-warp em.
the main trick is to ensure you know the tempo of your music or at least make sure you tap tempo properly.
getting ableton to "beatmatch" is a piece of cake. you just have to tell it how to play the tunes. that's where warping comes in. for those who haven't quite gotten their heads around that, i give you this:
DJ Shiva's Super Duper Slacker's Guide to Easy Warping in Ableton (that was a tad sarcastic).
set your tap tempo to a key. listen (without warping) and use tap tempo to find the tempo (there is a reason for this, trust me).
then in the clip properties, click "warp". MOST of the time, autowarp gets the approximate tempo right, it just doesn't set the first marker correctly. if it doesn't get the tempo right and sets up a trillion warp markers, click on one, select all, and delete them. then enter the approximate tempo you found in the Seg. BPM box.
now, once the tempo is close to correct, place the first warp marker on the first beat you want to warp from. sometimes you can place it at the beginning of an intro, sometimes it may be simpler just to find the first real beat of the song. turn on your metronome. this is a simple way to make sure your track is lined up with the correct tempo.
most electronic music is sequenced, which makes it easier. i usually go to the 17 mark and check to make sure things are in sync. if they are, continue to the 33rd. if things are still synced, they will prolly stay that way. to make a warp marker, double click on the number and that will make a warp marker. if you need to move it, click once and drag. do not double click until you have it where you want it, and do not drag if you have already made a marker. you can do this at varying points throughout the song, depending on how in sync it already it.
what you are looking for are the transients at the beginning of beats. use your eyes and your ears and eventually you will be able to do this in your sleep. it takes me about 30 secs to a minute to warp a tune, depending on the complexity.
i generally make warp markers at the beginning of phrases, like when the bass first drops, when there is a beatless break, when the beat breaks down for the outro. i use them as visual reminders, as well as telling ableton how to play.
if you have a tune that is NOT sequenced by a computer (live music, bands, etc.), you will need to make many more warp markers. use your ears. the great thing about this is that you can use ableton and warp markers to play tunes together that you never in a million years would have been able to work together on the decks.
and most importantly, when you are done warping each tune, click on "save" in the clip properties box in the "sample" section. if you do not do this, you will lose all of your work when you pull up the tune. if you transfer your tunes to another computer or folder, take both the tune AND the corresponding .asd file.
typically, you want to use repitch mode instead of beats (beats mode can leave some ugly transient wibble on a steady bassline), unless this would drastically alter the pitch (say it's a 130 bpm tune with a vocal, we don't want any chipmunk action here). then complex warp comes into play.
be forewarned, complex mode will not only use more processor to play, but will also alter the sound a bit (deadens the highs and undermines the lows just a smidge). there are some methods you can use (involving bbe sonic maximizer and PSP vintage warmer) to fix that that you can find at http://www.abletonlivedj.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6262.
this is the super fast version of the explanation. check youtube for some great video tutorials and also go to www.ableton.com and get into the forums. tons of great info there. www.abletonlivedj.com is another fantastic source.
p.s. my best advice, after telling you how to warp tunes, is to never think of ableton in terms of how turntable djing works. don't just think 2 channels, think 3 or 4. don't just think tunes, think pieces...you can have a hell of a lot of fun, but the creativity is up to you.
i hope this helps, and if you need any clarification, holla.
p.s. there is another nifty trick in ableton for making multiple clips of one song, and dragging it into the browser so it saves all the clips as one .asd file. rather nifty and i use it a lot, too. ;)
Shiva, you are ace.
take the day off!
how long is a piece of string ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
best bet is to call round to see a few users muck about at home with it tbh
i been using it almost 2 years now (i think) but NEVER made a track with it..
The distance between its two ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by module
.
not neccasarily.. is that spelt right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by massplanck
what do you guys mean when you say PA? you mean a live show in stead of djing?
PA only means public address: the speakers that are directed towards the public.
Unless you mean a different PA ;)
On topic: i think you ll learn quickly considering you already are familiar with reason and cubase.
Pa is the correct term for a live performance. PA can mean many things, but in this context it usualy stands for Personal Apperance or Performance Artist.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergroover
See wikipedia for more info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_PA
haha! i seem to have every day off these days (unemployed), so i have lots of time to play in ableton and to write long-winded explanations of how to play in ableton as well. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
And we are VERY grateful for your status!Quote:
Originally Posted by djshiva
cheers gal!
I have been using Ableton since version 4 and absolutely love it for mixing (although I have not done this live....yet) as well as producing. The only thing I have not really explored is the groove options but its something I really want to learn more about. In fact, I may start a thread on it haha.
I always assumed it was just shorthand for "playing live over a PA".Quote:
Originally Posted by IQ
You learn something new every day...
I guess "mastering" is entirely subjective and may take some time. But, as for use, I'd say fairly easy if you are comfortable with software for music in general. The first time I ever used it was for a part in a live PA. I created my soundbank with it on the drive to the venue from the passenger seat, having never opened it before. Now, I was using it for something very basic there, but I think you can catch the drift. I don't use Ableton a lot. Generally, the only time I use it is when I'm working with others who use Ableton. But, it was definitely coded with user friendliness in mind. I've never looked at a manual for the thing and figured out how to get it to do what I wanted it to do. So, basically, if it's something you want to work with, chances are you'll be able to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Pace
Cheers tocsin, was hoping for that answer