Why are promoters needing gimmicks - isnt it destroying the music?

Reading the 'Belville Three' post where Derrick May, Kevin Saunderson and Juan Atkins got together for the first time @ Awakenings - why are promoters asking for unproven headliners?

I understand times are tough but putting unproven headliners on, just cause it's 'interesting' is bullshit. Surely the people at the top of the flyer should be proven, skilled individuals? Otherwise, surely you're taking a gamble and risking ripping people off?

I'm finding this more and more through my own DJing. It's like being yourself isnt enough anymore. There needs to be some PR bullshit. **** that.

And how do we change this?

Sure, promoters need something to sell - but why not sell skill - not hype!

That's it .. Sell skill!
It doesn't mean the dj has to be the master effects or turntablism man.
It's simple for me!
The skill of the dj is understand the party and what people need to dance in any style, club, open party, whatever ..

In the Belville stuff, we all see that just a few freaks keeps an eye on the guys. For sure normal sets from Juan Atkins and Kevin Saunderson would be better.

Because your average punter doesn't fork over hard earned cash anymore because of someone's skills, but because "my friend said they're kinda like Tiesto".

Because hype and PR have become the replacement for talent.

Because our steadily homogenizing culture is becoming devoid of anything resembling uniqueness, in favor of an unrelenting dullness.

Wow. I'm not bitter. LOL

+1 Shiva.

There is no depth to the scene any more. All we are left with is the surface bollocks. People are drawn to imagery rather than the Techno. Like moths flying around a light rather than locating the actual physical moon.

Perhaps artist themselves are to be blamed?
They once had the power of the moment over where the story goes.

Some of its demographics.

Young people who don't know much about who they are listening to, or even what they are listening to are more likely to fork over hard earned cash for something that sounds like it will be good.

Older more seasoned veterans want to hear people at the top of their game delivering the goods.

The old rave lineups were classic for that.
"Everyone B2B with Everyone. Just look at that lineup! Its TWICE as good!"
Didn't do much for the music, but made the night seem better to people who didn't know any better.

The only way I can secure gigs these days is by shooting numbered ping pong balls out of my bumhole at the break of every tune. The balls are little raffle numbers offering the winner a little baggy of my finely ground pubic hair and PCP mix.

Some might call it a gimmick, I call it good business sense.

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

The only way I can secure gigs these days is by shooting numbered ping pong balls out of my bumhole at the break of every tune. The balls are little raffle numbers offering the winner a little baggy of my finely ground pubic hair and PCP mix.

Some might call it a gimmick, I call it good business sense.

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Good point!

music is goods these days more than anytime before. goods needs to be advertised to sell well. advertisiment is just one part of coin, the other one is customer who buys it. promoter will blame as much as people accept = they buy a ticket. this isn't anything new to me, and I think it is being like this for many years as far as i remember. at least in area i'm living.

i think it's just not matter of promoters and they advertisement gimmicks, but also position of music in today's life. deep inteligent music turned into elevator music so quickly. milions of tracks on internet waiting to be downloaded, then listened 1time, and moved to a bin. no strong relationship how it used to be when you could buy music on physical medium.

one more fact to mention. when i am reading artist's biography it seems like we have at least hundreds or thousands leaders of the industry, the bests of the best, with thousands of releases no-one listens to, but looks nice in bio. not enough selfreflection, maybe?

Don't think it'll kill the music, just the decent stuff will stay underground. No massive paycheques/big gigs for the artists doing all the new and interesting stuff, they'll be lucky to get a cup of tea, a bacon sandwich and a pat on the back.

All the name DJs are very clever at manipulating media about themselves and getting paid very handsomely for it. To be honest, it's not worth being bitter about as it's not as if I'm forking out to see them. I've learn't my lesson travelling several hours down to London clubs just to find out it's shit.

In the end, what they do doesn't effect what I do artistically, I'll personally keep making experimantal techno stuff long after they've played many gigs to people who wern't listening anyway. They probably could play vengaboys on loop for an hour and the crowd still would've said it's the best techno they've heard.

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Originally Posted by BloodStar

when i am reading artist's biography it seems like we have at least hundreds or thousands leaders of the industry, the bests of the best, with thousands of releases no-one listens to, but looks nice in bio. not enough selfreflection, maybe?

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I don't know how these people can live with themselves TBH.. I'd rather put out no records, than put out 10 records of derivative crap just to get bookings.. many around who take no pride in what they do, I guess, just wanting a cheap ticket to fame and fortune... beats me that they think making "techno" is the best way to do that...

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Originally Posted by BloodStar

advertisiment is just one part of coin, the other one is customer who buys it. promoter will blame as much as people accept = they buy a ticket. this isn't anything new to me, and I think it is being like this for many years as far as i remember. at least in area i'm living.

i think it's just not matter of promoters and they advertisement gimmicks, but also position of music in today's life. deep inteligent music turned into elevator music so quickly. milions of tracks on internet waiting to be downloaded, then listened 1time, and moved to a bin. no strong relationship how it used to be when you could buy music on physical medium.

one more fact to mention. when i am reading artist's biography it seems like we have at least hundreds or thousands leaders of the industry, the bests of the best, with thousands of releases no-one listens to, but looks nice in bio. not enough selfreflection, maybe?

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This is bang on Vlasta & something that basically isn't going to change >> everything seems so 'throwaway' music just because it's in effect so cheap to buy .. 90p for a blinding track that is say 2 months old - which has been so deftly created & so much time has been put in >> which folk still feel they have to download it free anyways from a pirate place - pitiful really & I hate Beatport n the likes for that

Unfortunately it is a numbers game now - and every producer/DJ is trying to throw as much proverbial musical 'mud' at the wall - so that at least one tiny sliver might at least stick...

I think people will have to start forgetting about the money & start making music for the love of it >> only then will creativity transcend :mrmyagi::mrmyagi::mrmyagi:

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

Some of its demographics.

Young people who don't know much about who they are listening to, or even what they are listening to are more likely to fork over hard earned cash for something that sounds like it will be good.

Older more seasoned veterans want to hear people at the top of their game delivering the goods.

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I was surprised at Awakenings that drift and I seemed to know more about the artists than anyone there. Two of the people near us ended up at the Advent and Industrialyzer by sheer dumb luck. They had no idea who Cisco Ferreira was. They'd never heard Bad Boy or Mad Dog. They certainly didn't know that G-Flame (Colin McBean) used to be the other half of that cookie, back when Ricardo was getting his first short and curlies. I think the dude even asked, "Are they any good?"

Bloodstar may be right. The glut of material and talent right now has devalued the entire scene. Over here I monitor message boards of neighboring cities on the off chance that some decent talent might come through once or twice a year. I took a weekend vacation to Dallas just to see Kenny Larkin, for God's sake! Even New York City gets maybe ten good names a year, and half of them are spinning minimal. A single festival like Awakenings or I Love Techno gets more quality name talent than the US gets in an entire year outside of DEMF, and that's just a weekend-long minimal plonkfest.

I think you may have too much of a good thing, honestly. There are a lot fewer techno fans stateside, but those of us who are here are more knowledgable and dedicated than your average European festival-goer, simply because we have to be.

I do so honestly believe that the Digital boom has killed of the special side of music. It's just not tangible. The only way to make it tangible is to use a gimmick.

I think the whole "techno" scene is pretty much getting ready to implode- but I think there is some kind of phoenix which will rise from the ashes- you can hear bits of it on soundcloud right now- I heard 10x better stuff on there in the past month than I did on the download stores in the past 6 months. There is going to be a big paradigm shift, where recordings will be purely for promotional use. The days of making money from recorded music are coming to an end...

but everything is going to have to go way way underground first before it comes out of the other side I think...

I'm also have a thought coming from a completely different direction that the actual performance and production side of things is going to open up a lot more and the days of the "Superstar DJ/Artist" may well be over- to be replaced by the programmers and developers who make the tools to make and perform music. People always want to get involved, and want interactivity, and as it becomes easier to make a half decent tune on your home computer, and even your mobile device, who is going to be so interested in other people's work when they can make their own? Ok, there is real talent being ignored, true, but as I say, I think the whole thing is going to go through a big shift, where your average music fan is going to be more interested in the groovebox app on their iPhone than the latest release from "DJ whoever"..

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Originally Posted by DannyBlack

I do so honestly believe that the Digital boom has killed of the special side of music. It's just not tangible. The only way to make it tangible is to use a gimmick.

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there's some truth to that, but i don't think it's just digital delivery; it also has to do with the means of production. as ableton and other bits of software make music creation and DJing more accessible, the sheer number of people engaging in these activities rises. as a result, marketing becomes more and more important.

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Originally Posted by crime

I don't know how these people can live with themselves TBH.. I'd rather put out no records, than put out 10 records of derivative crap just to get bookings.. many around who take no pride in what they do, I guess, just wanting a cheap ticket to fame and fortune... beats me that they think making "techno" is the best way to do that...

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Spot the f*ck on.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

Reading the 'Belville Three' post where Derrick May, Kevin Saunderson and Juan Atkins got together for the first time @ Awakenings - why are promoters asking for unproven headliners?

I understand times are tough but putting unproven headliners on, just cause it's 'interesting' is bullshit. Surely the people at the top of the flyer should be proven, skilled individuals? Otherwise, surely you're taking a gamble and risking ripping people off?

I'm finding this more and more through my own DJing. It's like being yourself isnt enough anymore. There needs to be some PR bullshit. **** that.

And how do we change this?

Sure, promoters need something to sell - but why not sell skill - not hype!

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Has it ever dawned on you that the promotors might be trying to sell someone else due to the lack of skill in the headliners?

and techno is just a music genre and anything else is a bonus, i.e fame, any type of gigs and selling music.

as for digital, i think its good, PEOPLE are shit.

and the sooner theres a proper reason to write music (i.e what mr M H has been chatting about) the better.

But to be fair, we are at a stage now where theres is always shit BUT i can still find black plastic and WAV releases that are absolutley mint and i will play for ever!

The whole of society has fallen for the modern marketing trap and are happy to carry on being ignorant of any sense of self and continue chewing on their mass produced fodder.

The large techno crowd, unfortunately, is also made up of people with this mindset and it is just feeding a new breed of artists, promoters and djs that are in it for the wrong reasons... subscribing to this modern marketing tactic and trying to **** it up for us all.

Oh well, I'm just going to destroy their crowds at every opportunity and steal their women... :P

lol

it isnt destroying the music atall, its just an easier way to get more people through the doors.

i think allot of you are reading far too much into it really.

We could be guilty of that I guess mate. However, look at ILT this year. Glitzy, Gimmicky heart shaped hand, commercial dance fest.

When you try and market something underground, you simply get mainstream. It's not underground any more. I know, I know all this talk of underground; it's so, cliched isn't it.

I suppose that era has gone now. The same with the balls. Balls has been replaced with Marketability. Marketability ultimately born of profitability, which is something "Underground" is not.

I'm not saying the scene has died and I'm not belittling what people are doing to try and get the numbers, I'm over that. Passed that.

It's just a different scene these days. Like an old cancer riddled, dog it limped off to go and live on the farm. The new dog is now sitting there waiting to be played with, all shiny and new and minus a set of BALLS.

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Originally Posted by Methodixxx

The whole of society has fallen for the modern marketing trap and are happy to carry on being ignorant of any sense of self and continue chewing on their mass produced fodder.

The large techno crowd, unfortunately, is also made up of people with this mindset and it is just feeding a new breed of artists, promoters and djs that are in it for the wrong reasons... subscribing to this modern marketing tactic and trying to **** it up for us all.

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agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

Reading the 'Belville Three' post where Derrick May, Kevin Saunderson and Juan Atkins got together for the first time @ Awakenings - why are promoters asking for unproven headliners?

I understand times are tough but putting unproven headliners on, just cause it's 'interesting' is bullshit. Surely the people at the top of the flyer should be proven, skilled individuals? Otherwise, surely you're taking a gamble and risking ripping people off?

I'm finding this more and more through my own DJing. It's like being yourself isnt enough anymore. There needs to be some PR bullshit. **** that.

And how do we change this?

Sure, promoters need something to sell - but why not sell skill - not hype!

---

This is not news, been going on for years. Started with those shranztards, now it's all blown out of proportion.....

Intresting, in madrid I started clubbing around there for around 4 years and I can see slowly how the techno scene is dieing and sadly its being replaced by this justice, boyz whatever style of music. Sadly that's what sells more so they completly replaced all the techno artists with all these electro style djs. Damn money, now I rarely go out clubbing, its so rare to hear at least one loopy techno track, unless you go to a big festival. Now, the good techno is pretty much underground here and I suppose also in the uk?.
The good thing about techno is that it will never die out, it comes back after a while.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

Reading the 'Belville Three' post where Derrick May, Kevin Saunderson and Juan Atkins got together for the first time @ Awakenings - why are promoters asking for unproven headliners?

I understand times are tough but putting unproven headliners on, just cause it's 'interesting' is bullshit. Surely the people at the top of the flyer should be proven, skilled individuals? Otherwise, surely you're taking a gamble and risking ripping people off?

I'm finding this more and more through my own DJing. It's like being yourself isnt enough anymore. There needs to be some PR bullshit. **** that.

And how do we change this?

Sure, promoters need something to sell - but why not sell skill - not hype!

---

It's been like this for a LONG time in some way or another hasnt it. One thing that has always bothered me about some people that catch you (Mark) play is that they'll say something like this:

PERSON: I went to see Mark EG the other night, he was ****ing mental!

ME: Aw wicked, Mark's a beast, what did he play?

PERSON: I dont know but he was going MENTAL! He's mad int he!?!?!

Or on flyers, 'Mark is a ****ing lunatic granny slasher behind the decks... yadda yadda'

I once also saw on a flyer that had 'Ceephax Acid Crew' headlining (a great artist in his own right) and underneath 'The mighty Squarepushers brother'... not one mention of any of his own skill or talent! Id go ****ing mad!!!


Now, Mark your a very skilled DJ and i know as well as most that when playing (i do the same) you cant help but just go, well a bit bonkers because your loving what your doing so much and get caught in the moment.

But yeah, it just pains me and always has done when people know you for your antics and not your music. This isnt a criticism btw man, i think its great seeing you play (though its not happened for years!) but i also love the music that your playing yknow. Its just people i guess.

To be honest, iv always wanted to ask you what you thought on the matter.