Monitors that can take a battering

well i certainly am a disheartened chappie this morning :(

a couple of weeks ago i bought some PMC TB2 monitors and just as i got em i blew up my old KRK K-ROKS which i intended to sell to partially fund the PMC's..
This morning i blew the ****in PMC's up :cry:

what am i going to do? i need a set of monitors that can go ****ING loud when i want them to, handle a HEAP of bass when i want em to, sound the shit & arent going to ****ing blow up on me!

any ideas? - this aint helped by the fact that im now skint either, but i know im going to have to spend some real money here (somehow) to get what i need.

:cry:

:cry: maybe get some quested they seem like they can take a battering! :(

Z

Were they active or passive , i believe its much harder to blow active speakers as they usually have some internal overload protection , just a thought

yeah good point... both my sets were passive, ive never tried actives, maybe its time i did..

i checked out the quested stuff and it seems they olnly have ****in huge speakers or little compact nearfields.. i really need somthing like a big nearfield / small mid.. i have quite a big room and no noise restrictions currently :)

HR 626 actives?
Quested F11`s?
Genelec actives (serious dollar)?

The Mackies are an excellent choice for actives... Go the HR826s (HR626s big brothers) if you wanna go REAL loud ;)

are they the ones with 2 woofers? the ones u sometimes see as a center in mackie surround setups? i think turnkey have a deal on them actaually - i might just check em out :)

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Originally Posted by networkacid

The Mackies are an excellent choice for actives... Go the HR826s (HR626s big brothers) if you wanna go REAL loud ;)

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i have the mackie 626`s with a 400 watt mackie sub , sounds fat , you might be better off with just 824`s and no sub though.

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Originally Posted by Jimfish

are they the ones with 2 woofers? the ones u sometimes see as a center in mackie surround setups? i think turnkey have a deal on them actaually - i might just check em out :)

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those ones look the bollox , read a good review of them also

what about fostex PM-2 ?

they look pretty meaty for £450..

anybody heard em?

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Genelec actives (serious dollar)?

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Deffo the genelecs! Shear quality, and loud as ****! Ive cranked some of these babies right up and never had a problem with em.

M8 there is a certain limit from which yer perception of freq. gets totally off... Fletcher_munson curves (not absolutly sure but I think the best is 86 db spl)... anyways I tend 2 monitor low when doing the basic level/ pan/ efxs... then Crank it up 4 bass consistency/ distortion... and a damn good bass wind in tha face! :P

Working lots of time with loud level is a killa, avoid please... I know quite some people with earing probs from this...

Sorry just though I should remind ya b4 u went 2 crazy on the seach 4 the lost db! ;)


Z

ear fatigue also sets in quicker at louder volumes, your ears get tired quicker, still love to crank it up though. :twisted:

ah no, i dont listen loud all the time, but when i want volume i really want volume if ya know what i mean..

i buggered the pmc's up with that ****in EQ built into the powercore when playin around with some drum and bass :cry: . Slip of the mouse - man that EQ is evil though!

get a limiter on there... and make sure you got plenty of power in your amp too...

you can easily nuke monitors with an amp that cant give it nice solid sinewaves even if they are rated at 3 times the wattage..

If you get a decent amplifier you wont be able to destroy your monitors even if you put the resonance on somethin up full whack and your ears bleed..

active monitors suk most of the time also..

experience recomends that u always keep a limiter at the end of the chain just in case!!

Z

ah good plan.. well i think i had the pmc's amped ok, but im no expert on amps.. i had them bi-amped with a pair of samson servo 260's which i cant see would have underpowered em. i dont really know tho - im lame at understanding all this amplification stuff :cry:

if ya want real loud, look at the SPL rating on the monitor... e.g. 88dB/W.. go for the highest (e.g. 90dB+/W.. loudness doesnt really rely on power its the speaker.

yu can put 10000W into a hamster and it still wont be as loud as an ALBA ghetto blaster. (just).

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Originally Posted by thorin

get a limiter on there... and make sure you got plenty of power in your amp too...

you can easily nuke monitors with an amp that cant give it nice solid sinewaves even if they are rated at 3 times the wattage..

If you get a decent amplifier you wont be able to destroy your monitors even if you put the resonance on somethin up full whack and your ears bleed..

active monitors suk most of the time also..

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active monitors are far better at reproducing a flat frequency response
than passive ones and lets face it thats what you need to engineer decent tunes, and you can still destroy monitors with a good amp

Actives r generally better cause they've been worked out 2 maximize the sound of the speakers... so they r "costume" built 4 those... they better their weakness and work within them.

It's always better 2 have an amp more powerfull than the monitors and then work 2 the limits of the speakers with out getting near 2 their FP (frying Point :P ).

Sampson don't seem 2 b the best choice for such good monitors as the pmc's! :(

Z

active monitors better? I dont get this. ALthough the speaker manufactur would maybe include some gain control to compnesate for the speakers "un-flatness", to smooth it out, this usually only makes matters worse... active speakers require long runs of cable holding low-level signals, and are more dificult to cool. hmmm am i stupid to argue it out:) serious debate tho.. its intresting

I suppose the amp is matched prefectly to the speakers in the active system, but you cant upgrade and switch etc. e.g. I switch between my monitors and Hi-fi speakers to gauge the sound quality on typical home system. your payin more in one big go also

"...I suppose the amp is matched prefectly to the speakers in the active system..."

That's the main thing going 4 the active speakers!

Z

Heheheh - currently I'm using a pair of Mackie HR-824's as my nearfields. However, when I'm really rocking out, jamming on the choons and rehearsing my live set, sometimes I've noticed that right when it's really loud and I'm really getting into it, I look over at the Mackies and the "OL" light is on. Given the price, I always immediately jump on the master faders and yank 'em down.

This pisses me off. Just when I get into it, it's too loud for my setup.

So, I was thinking about getting a DJ monitor speaker for the studio; something that'll go loud, but will feel more like rocking a live show. I decided to give the Mackie SRM450 a go, but given the price ($1300 CAD each), figured I'd better be sure beforehand, so I rented one for a month from the local PA rental place.

Well, I'm sure it goes loud enough, and I'm sure it sounds good - but it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much speaker for my house! First day I got it home I put in a pair of earplugs and cranked it right the hell up... my girlfriend came home 20 mins later, flashed the lights to get my attention, and told me that not only could she hear it when she got off the train three blocks away, but that the neighbors were forming an angry mob in front of the house and I should turn it down now. :oops:

Anyway - I don't think I'll be purchasing one of these, unless I then follow up the purchase with another SRM450 and a powered sub of some kind and start throwing small parties. I'm thinking of trying out the Mackie SRM350 when it is released... but in your shoes, I would definitely consider splitting up your "loud" system and your "monitoring" system - you shouldn't be monitoring very loud anyway, you only get one set of ears. :)

i had some jbl control 5 which were ok i thought. Now i use TurboSound impact 120 for home use.

This might help...

Active vs. Passive
To operate passive monitors, you connect the line-level outputs of your mixer to a power amp and then run speaker wire to the monitor. Lots can go wrong in a passive system – and often does.

This new breed of active speaker system has numerous advantages over older passive systems:

Vastly improved damping.
You've probably heard speakers compared to electric motors - both turn power into motion. But a speaker is also a generator that converts return cone motion into electrical impulses which travel back to the amplifier. Called "back EMF" (electromotive force), this energy can be used by an amplifier to "brake" (damp) the cone's motion and reduce overshoot. However, tightly controlling a passive speaker cone via damping isn't easy. First, your external power amp has to deliver massive current to the loudspeaker – and sink the same amount of current coming back. Second, because speaker wire has its own capacitance and resistance, any significant length of even the most exotic cable compromises an amplifier's ability to damp back EMF. The active HR824's FR Series amplifiers have extraordinarily high damping factors and are just inches away from the transducers. Test their awesome damping by gently pressing on the low frequency transducer cone when the speaker is turned on. It "fights back" with a strong force of its own.

Eliminates cost and variability of external amps.
Because power amps vary widely in output ratings, damping factors and sound characteristics, they introduce an unwanted variable in the monitoring process. The HR824's internal amplifiers are low negative feedback, audiophile-quality designs which are specially tailored to the optimum power requirements of the transducers.

Improved overload protection.
Since passive monitors have no control over input power, they have to rely on some sort of crude "crowbar" circuit or fuse to keep the transducers' voice coils from toasting.

Wave guides for better treble dispersion.
Wave guides aren't a new concept, but they're next to impossible to use in a passive system because they also induce a frequency amplitude shift. An active system can electronically compensate, providing both wide dispersion and flat frequency response.
Servo loop woofer technology.
When a bass transducer can "talk back" to its amplifier, they can work together as a unit, achieving greater extension, more accurate damping and faster response. This is impossible in a passive system – or a "powered system" that merely consists of a single amp stuck on the back of the speaker.

Precise, distortion-free electronic crossover.
Passive crossovers are simply a network of inductors and capacitors. Typical iron- or air-core inductors can saturate and cause distortion at high power levels. Worse yet, extreme saturation causes them to stop being inductors, resulting in drastically altered crossover characteristics and possibly blown transducers.

Bi-amplification.
When a passive system's single amplifier must reproduce the whole audio spectrum, low frequencies rapidly "use up" the amp's headroom. As higher frequencies "ride along" on lower frequency waveforms, they can be chopped off or distorted even though the high frequencies themselves would not be clipping. Separating highs from lows via an active electronic crossover lets the HR824 use two different amplifiers. Each is free to drive just one transducer to its safe maximum limit without intermodulation distortion or other interaction between the two drivers.

I think Jim knows his stuff, he just wanted advice on something he can crank, when the need arises.

I was a bit bleery eyed when I got in the studio today, and I thought the title of this thread read
"Mothers That Can Take a Good Battering" :shock:

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I was a bit bleery eyed when I got in the studio today, and I thought the title of this thread read
"Mothers That Can Take a Good Battering" :shock:

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:lol: :lol:

all this is really intresting right. but it still doesnt justify why top of the range £10,000k audiophile systems are not of the "active" breed.

Ok, you can attach loads of fancy feedback servo systems to the speaker in an active system, but at the end of the day your still connecting a cone to the end of an amp... and the effect of cable lengths is pretty trivial.

Im no expert, but I do have a degree in electronics.. and that massive post although useful, was mostly "jargon" to try and sell a particular model of active monitor.

still not convinced either way..

"...all this is really intresting right. but it still doesnt justify why top of the range £10,000k audiophile systems are not of the "active" breed. ..."


I'll start by saying I'm not really an expert or this sort of subjects...

From what u said abouve I imediately think that someone who is willing 2 pay that much 4 speakers will what an amp just about the same quality, and probably would buy what he would C as a straped-on amp! Otherwise the a sort of speakers like these but with proper amping included would b even more "impossible 2 buy"


I tend 2 think that the efeciency and linearity of a active speaker is better than and "average" amp... also we must consider that 2 amps (bas-Mid/highs..) have a better and more consistent response over the all spectrum (xcept maybe on the x-over point... but still there are tailored 4 the monitors especificaly).. please correct me if I'm wrong.

The thing is I don't think u can find a better match between amp/ speakers with out spending a lot more (if u go for the passives+external amp)...

Well that's my view anyhow!

glad 2 hear any coments, ideas and teachings! :)

Z

hmmm, i am not sure.

do you put the powder in the cup before the water or after when making a nice cup of bovril. this is also uncertain.

ahhh c'mon m8, I am serious when I say I don't know much about this just what I think is a little comon sense, which doesn't make it right...

So I am 4 real interested in yer coments and anything u can teach us with out this spinning into a BS topic...

BS as in Brain Melting ;) lol

Z

personally I prefer passive, cos I am old fashioned and don`t like having amps in such a close proximity to my speakers.

plus I love amcron amps

dunno, suppose you have to weigh out the economic advantages of passive system with the quality benefits of the active system.

Im stuck in me ways and like a good quality passive system with a beefy amp covered with fins..

I believe that the economic advantages (cos you can upgrade each component seperately) of the passive system far outweigh what, in effect, your ears probs wont even notice in sound quality.

at the end of the day we are all mastering for shit quality systems such as PA or Hi-fi/radio anyway.

I have HHB Circle 5 actives... I can't find them on their site tho... I love these monitors... :love:

They are fantastic for techno production and such like. I bought mine new years ago. I have heard everything, and used most ,and nothing can touch the Circle 5s. I demo'd all the new stuff from 2003,2004 and still nothing comes close.

I feel they are a forgotten classics, people either ignored them or have never heard of them! Occasionally you see a 2nd hand pair for around £250-300 on www.soundonsound.co.uk which is basically a F***IN bargain.

If you are serious about techno production you would not replace these for anything.

PS you dont need the active ones just get a samson servo...

The mackie's have got a limiter/compressor built in, so the cones are saved when the bottom end gets to hot.

If you want damn loud, i recommend the high end genelecs a snip at £35000 a channel :lol:

well cheers everyone..

in the end i got the Fostex PM-2's
ive just been sitting here for a coupla days with ol' dirty and we agreed they are pretty nice; loud, fairly tight, not too shabby stereo imaging and most imporantly not tiring on the ears..

id reccomend em too anyone as they are actives and only £450 - pretty damn big an chunky too :)

On the topic of amps vs active monitors!

Talking 2 a audio guru over here I must say although there ins't and absolute answer!

But in 90% of cases a really good mf amp can do the work better than the active Monitor.

why because the amps would have 2 b so bloody heavy that would make actives almost impractical. Also because we're all tolled the amps are matched 4 the speakers when rarelly they do it... also alot of the mackie jargon is tipical Mackie talk 2 convince costumers....

don't kill the mesenger! ;)

word up 4 thorin! :clap:

Z

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Originally Posted by DJ Ze MigL

On the topic of amps vs active monitors!

Talking 2 a audio guru over here I must say although there ins't and absolute answer!

But in 90% of cases a really good mf amp can do the work better than the active Monitor.

why because the amps would have 2 b so bloody heavy that would make actives almost impractical. Also because we're all tolled the amps are matched 4 the speakers when rarelly they do it... also alot of the mackie jargon is tipical Mackie talk 2 convince costumers....

don't kill the mesenger! ;)



word up 4 thorin! :clap:

Z

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not just mackie spinning the active line,many other speaker manfacturers also claim same sort of thing, i dunno, i will worry about it when i have to buy new ones, hopefully not for ages.

yeah, but still the actives do a great job nonetheless, especially cause 4 u 2 have a better package U'd have 2 spend so much more!


Z