why are distributions keep going broke?

[fatcollective]

this is something we are thinking of doing...we already have tracks unreleased on our site for d/l, but we are looking into how people can buy an Mp3 and i think this will be through paypal, which isnt really hard to set up, glad to see this thread is getting back on track aswel...some good ideas over the last few posts :clap:

[g]

yes but no. there are 6 or 8 decent sites already running where you can buy mp3s. rather than labels dealing first and foremost with distribs, it looks like they need to get their heads around this new sales channel.

those websites already sell tons of 'dj' music, it's just that most of it is house oriented first. there's nothing stopping the adoption of the labels i/we care about here; they just need to get out there. OR the distribs need to help them do so.

so far one of the only labels i can point to that's really doing this right is inigo kennedy's asymmetric. you can buy the whole catalog, in 256kbps files, at foryourears.com. i'm sure that slowly we will see more and more of this.

[Joseph Isaac]

A bloke called Sinner put his heart and soul into helping me set this forum up.

Sinner is the man! He hosts all of my sites! Truly a gem in the world rocks...

Check out his hosting site...well worth your money: www.prohosted.net

[MARKEG]

I'm sure many ppl would say the same thing. It's ppl like this we need in our industry.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

ok for all you labels that wanna sell mp3's go to www.trackitdown.net
they sell hard dance (all forms) there brilliant.
If u wanna sort out distribution contact John (his emails on the site)
ive just sorted it our for the new release on my label so when its out i'll let u know how the mp3 thing works

[Ritzi Lee]

Livesets.com Radio!

We are on the lookout for more dj's that can spin LIVE on our radio station.

In the new system we can give dj's access to the programming module. They see a complete calendar and they can fill in the times they would like to spin the decks. So dj's won't have to arrange a lot of things, just fill in your name in the calendar at the right time and you reserved the stream for that period of time! It's comparable with your Outlook calendar..

Just to make it clear, it doesn't matter where you live, as long as you have decks and a decent Internet connection

The requirements for playing at our radio station are:

- 14 kb/s upstream (normal cable / ADSL is enough)
- turntables connected to PC

If you are really interested or just want more information, email Desron desron@livesets.com, they are the administrators of LiveSets Radio.

------------

[The Divide]

Mp’3 Advantages...

A) Cheap

B) Quick

Mp’3 Disadvantages...

A) Not everyone has a pc

B) People look down on digital software mixing when compared to turntables.

C) Lower sound quality!!!!

D) There is nothing that’s physically sold to the costumer

E) They can be easily abused by piracy

For me, the bad points outweigh the good points. I would rather be sold a cheap, well packaged CD that's been purchased online or in a shop. I would also like to see the new CDJ technology been a success. At least with CD, I would feel like I have purchased something which still has its 'quality' and its collectable value. I really don’t like the idea that you have to compromise your audio quality for the sake of ease however I do think that in some instances, vinyl is overpriced.

CD’s would make an excellent new format as far as cutting costs and ease of purchase is concerned. If everything is kept on CD’s, Mp’3 could be used to sell the product (and ffs none of that low 96kbs crap which you get on most online record shops, I hate that shit!!). As far as piracy is concerned, it would require a much more conscious effort for someone to start file sharing something from cd. Ok, it’s fairly easy to do but at least there’s a moral boundary as well as physical one. Little things like that can make a difference.

[The Divide]

.......But to be honest I think the root of the problems facing this industry isn’t the format on which the music is sold on.

[The Divide]

There`s simply not enough people buying records.
The rave generation is growing up, and turning into middle age wine bar lounge lizards who don`t rave any more.
We need to make the kids realise that the rebellion, punk attitude and alternative standpoint they perceive to be a part of the rock genre, is an actual reality in the world and music of techno.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[crbn]

The buyer doesn't necessarily have to buy mp3 but they do need to know the name of the artist and track name in order to track a copy down. Also maybe a web address for the artist or label so they can go and buy a copy on CD, mp3 or vinyl. Or Discogs is good for tracking down releases.

Internet radio at the minute can be good but the problem is that a mixed set done on CD or vinyl leaves the listener clueless as to what the tracks are called. So IMO a radio station needs to broadcast mp3 with track info and not vinyl, unless they are willing to go on the mic every five minutes to read track lists. Once the listener knows the track name they can then head off to buy it on the format of their choice: vinyl, CD, mp3, aac or ringtone. Record companies need only produce mp3s as promotional tools for the radio stations.

Ive been listening to these two stations (amongst others). Its a different style to the stuff thats discussed here (IDM, electronica, ambient) but they broadcast ID3 tags so I can find out who the tracks are by.

http://www.limbikfreq.com/
http://www.staticbeats.com/

Also check out the Classic Techno broadcast on Digitally Imported:

http://www.di.fm/

I reckon that the cost of internet radio needs to be footed by either record shops or distributors as they both carry material from a range of labels and of course have an interest in letting people know whats out there. Clone have CBS radio (not sure if it carries track info though) and I really think Warp's Bleep.com would benefit from a similar radio station showcasing the labels they distribute.

The one downside is that with unmixed broadcast is that it would be easy to record tracks from the broadcast. People in underground scenes need to realise that if they don't want to be listening to Britney and Aguilera in five years time, they need to support the labels, pay for releases and stay away from outfits such as Jetgroove/Audio1.

[crbn]

.......But to be honest I think the root of the problems facing this industry isn’t the format on which the music is sold on.

Your right that isn't the problem, lets leave MP3 vs CD vs Vinyl for another thread. For me personally the problem is getting to hear the best tracks when they are so hard to find in all the mediocre releases.

Any more opinions? Maybe we could put together a list of the real issues that are causing problems...

[tocsin]

If more labels actually had tracks I could purchase in digital format straight from a
webpage, I'd be more inclined to buy it. It would even turn the tides on piracy since, a lot of the music I have pirated, I simply cannot find as easilly as I could in the past.

This is just what I was thinking. If I could go straight to my fave label and d/l the mp3 rather than a) wait for the track to go on soulseek (not that i do this cause i dont) or b) wait for the track to come out on vinyl @ a record shop and then take 3 days in the post, then i would. It would be book marked and I'd check it out every few days.

Now this means EVERY techno label needs to get online and have an way of doing this. But to be fair, most techno labels just do not have a presence on the web, let alone have learnt how to create an mp3 download facility. This just isn't going to happen. The only way is a record shop that all the techno labels trust. But with Jetgroove showing that this is not going to be easy (anyone here trust them????!!), then I'm thinking that the techno industry is a long way off getting truly connected to the net...

Actually, someone has already created the download facility for you. If you go to a place like http://www.hotscripts.com you can find a bunch of CGI/Perl, PHP, etc. scripts that are designed with the purpose of selling a library/catalog of digital media. Some are freeware. Some have a purchase cost. It wouldn't even be so much of a problem of every label getting online either. The downloads could grow in 2 ways:

1.) Labels upload their new releases to anyone's server.
2.) People send you or someone else a CD of the new tracks. The new tracks can be ripped and encoded through a simple batch process that would take less than 10 minutes total on most of today's machines.

You wouldn't even need everything on one central server as far as the media is concerned. You'd just need a script interface that references an SQL database which holds information such as media links, account info, credits, etc. I've seen scripts that mask the media links as well so people can't download a track and then pass a link on to anyone who hasn't paid.
I really think this could work out for a number of you guys. Just from the action on this board, I doubt you have any shortage of visitors per month. Plus, since this is a network, once other labels start doing or attempting the same, you hook up with them in the database and grow that way. In a nutshell, you'd become a completely new type of distribution network that is run by the labels and artists themselves rather than middlemen.

To the person who brought up the negatives on MP3, I will respond to each point in numerical order.

A) Not everyone has a pc

I am willing to bet that, for the number of people who don't own PCs, there are a lot more people who aren't DJs but enjoy the music with PCs and no turntables.

B) People look down on digital software mixing when compared to turntables.

People used to look down on techno music in general. I used to be one of those people. Who gives a rat's ass what other people may think? Techno didn't become what it was by sticking to the laws of tradition.

C) Lower sound quality!!!!

That all depends on the bitrate setting. I'm usually hardpressed to be able to tell the difference once something is at 192kbit. I've never been able to distinguish a difference between 256kbit or 320kbit and the actual source material. We're not exactly dealing with string quartet music here. ;) This, however, can also be offset through selling CDs of straight digital audio on demand based on custom orders from the buyer.

D) There is nothing thats physically sold to the costumer

This is really the only one I see being a big deal. Some people just like t have something to hold on to. Some people also, no matter what, will not accept digital format. But, they are now the minority from what I've experienced at least. So, the simple thing to do would to be continuing vinyl for a bit and seeing if there is still a demand. I think the sales of digital media though could help offset some of the losses or minimal gains one can get through dealing with distributors.

E) They can be easily abused by piracy

Piracy is already very real without MP3s being available. Most of the techno MP3s I have are vinyl rips downloaded through filesharing networks. They've got the crackle and all. It just takes one rip to spread like crazy on any network and more than enough people are willing to do it. I don't see how offering mp3s for sale is going to increase the piracy that is already occurring. Rather, I think if the prices are right it would disuade a lot of the people who use networks to pirate material. You'll always have the pricks who just refuse to pay for anything. But, the copyrighted material I've downloaded has been either out of print or near impossible for me to find around my vicinity. In addition, no distributor from overseas seems to be willing to send me one or two records per order. If a true online store that was runs by artists/labels and specialised in techno truly existed and legally stocked what I enjoyed, I wouldn't be downloading shit illegally. I can afford a dollar or two per track
considering it used to cost me roughly $6. Add that up for the labels/artists too. Rather than seeing a whopping $2-$3 per record bought by a distributor that is later sold, after shipping, promos, and every other cute means of screwing people is used, the label stands to make anywhere from maybe $4-$8 per record direct profit minus cost of the webpage, royalties to artists, etc.

I dunno. I have no idea which label is going to be the first to take this step that has already made an impact with vinyl. But, whichever one does, they will have my support and most likely a loyal customer.

[mattboyslim]

cant be arsed to read all this, but i gota say a big part of the blame lies in the hands of the record shop owner. if you are going to class yourself as specialist, then you need to be clued up and be talking to the kids and findng out whats gona sell. not jsut whack your safe bets out and hope for the best. the record shop 'vinyl pusher' is the first link between that tune you heard in a club and actually getting your hands on the ****er, so its important for these guys to be in the know, and they perhaps would be if they listened to the clued up distributors.

DON'T EMPLOY ARSEHOLES should be the first rule

[Larney]

For a start shops should not have records on a sale or return basis. If they pay for them up front they are more likely to want to sell them. Better then that they take less and sell all than take more and return 90%!

[The Divide]

To the person who brought up the negatives on MP3, I will respond to each point in numerical order.

A) Not everyone has a pc

I am willing to bet that, for the number of people who don't own PCs, there are a lot more people who aren't DJs but enjoy the music with PCs and no turntables.

Good point, maybe that’s to change for the next generation whilst the older generation avoid this pc voodoo malarkey. I am baised because most people I know from clubbing dont really like sitting around in front of pc's :lol: . Does give a CD a bigger market imo as the cd can be played on the pc.

B) People look down on digital software mixing when compared to turntables.

People used to look down on techno music in general. I used to be one of those people. Who gives a rat's ass what other people may think? Techno didn't become what it was by sticking to the laws of tradition.

I'm talking about regular punters in the clubs not everyone and anyone. There's less respect for someone mixing on a lappy than a deck. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant. It’s what the punters think that count. I personally like lap top performances, whilst a lot of people I know look down on them as lacking in showman qualities. Some even think its a hoax! haha. Believe me I am the one whos arguing for and not against on this one. I am just making a point

C) Lower sound quality!!!!

That all depends on the bitrate setting. I'm usually hardpressed to be able to tell the difference once something is at 192kbit. I've never been able to distinguish a difference between 256kbit or 320kbit and the actual source material. We're not exactly dealing with string quartet music here. ;) This, however, can also be offset through selling CDs of straight digital audio on demand based on custom orders from the buyer.

Tis a minour difference but then again people dont spend hundreds of pounds of pounds on hardware equipment for it to be comprimised at a post production stage. Why take a step backwards to go forwards (MP3) when you can just step forwards (CD) :P :lol: Again I am biased! haha

Bring on a super super fast wave file transfere's down an internet connection and I'm in on this one. As the technology goes forwards so should the music. Oh and while we are at it, lets up the sample rate and bit depth while we are at it! Oh and dont get me started on surround sound! Wooo hooo

E) They can be easily abused by piracy

Piracy is already very real without MP3s being available. Most of the techno MP3s I have are vinyl rips downloaded through filesharing networks. They've got the crackle and all. It just takes one rip to spread like crazy on any network and more than enough people are willing to do it. I don't see how offering mp3s for sale is going to increase the piracy that is already occurring. Rather, I think if the prices are right it would disuade a lot of the people who use networks to pirate material. You'll always have the pricks who just refuse to pay for anything. But, the copyrighted material I've downloaded has been either out of print or near impossible for me to find around my vicinity. In addition, no distributor from overseas seems to be willing to send me one or two records per order. If a true online store that was runs by artists/labels and specialised in techno truly existed and legally stocked what I enjoyed, I wouldn't be downloading shit illegally. I can afford a dollar or two per track
considering it used to cost me roughly $6. Add that up for the labels/artists too. Rather than seeing a whopping $2-$3 per record bought by a distributor that is later sold, after shipping, promos, and every other cute means of screwing people is used, the label stands to make anywhere from maybe $4-$8 per record direct profit minus cost of the webpage, royalties to artists, etc.

Like you say, if someone’s going to do it they are going to do it. It’s a matter of whether you can get the majority of people on board and all sharing the same mentality on the morals of piracy

[Internal Error Records]

this thread is devastated by numerous unmentioned differences being over looked.

many vinyl nutz are djs first techno heads second.

most vinyl labels cater to djs, not home listeners.

mp3s are ideal for home listeners.

and my favorite - as long as money is only being made on vinyl, then labels have no point to switch to mp3.

and so on.

its like many people in this thread arent speaking about apples.

[Ritzi Lee]

For a start shops should not have records on a sale or return basis. If they pay for them up front they are more likely to want to sell them. Better then that they take less and sell all than take more and return 90%!

Yes this kind of business is killing us.

[djshiva]

this thread is devastated by numerous unmentioned differences being over looked.

many vinyl nutz are djs first techno heads second.

most vinyl labels cater to djs, not home listeners.

mp3s are ideal for home listeners.

and my favorite - as long as money is only being made on vinyl, then labels have no point to switch to mp3.

and so on.

its like many people in this thread arent speaking about apples.

i think the problem here is that people forget that part of the reason that is distros go under and labels die deaths every day is that our genre is SO specialized that the average punter can't really get their hands on it unless they grab a dj mix or really search for it.

i think it's a damn shame that music goes unheard (and in the case of this particular debate) unsold to the general listening public.

i know i know...we're SO bloody underground. but we're so underground we're killing ourselves and our abilities to actually keep labels, distros and artists afloat in this crazy competitive world.

as long as labels ARE selling vinyl, then why the hell not get off our asses and make the tracks available to:

a) final scratch djs who want quality mp3s and will pay for them, and

b) everyday schmoes who dig techno but aren't djs and just want some good tracks (i know plenty of people in this category)

i am all for BOTH methods of distribution being put together and really broadening the influence of techno.

oh, and in reference to the djs first techno heads second...uh...gotta disagree there...i had to love it before i wanted to spin it.

just some random mouthing off in the wee morning hours...sorry if any of this was unintelligible...

[GothamGrooves.com]

Many of you have made very valid points in ths barrage of opinions, and I think its great that there is so much passion for the scene here. However I do not think one factor can be the underlying cause for techno losing its ground... I remember some1 blaming file sharing programs like soulseek, I would say its the total opposite, porgrams like that allow music to be heard by people wolrd wide, and with the use of a built in chat word of mouth spreads like wild fire... I have personally bought records that people recomended to me through slsk that I probably would not have found using convetional means.. Another problem that I have discussed with my friends is that techno has no image! We live in a world where sex sells and techno for the most part has no definitive image. Hip hop has the thug mentality, rock appeals to kids through its lyrics especially when in school and you are dealing with a mountain of changes in your body/life. Progressive has now been attributed to women in bikinis, and titties sell!! Even D n B has an image.. Unless you have very synthy techno, people just think of it as repetitve music... The answer is not putting a girl in a bathing suit on the cover either because the music does not evoke that image. The key is to give "kids" something that appeals to them to hook them in. Originally it was new music in a non club enviornment, it was new and different, and word of mouth worked very well. Now the scene is over saturated with tons of shit and it comes down to what will allow the fans to relate to techno? The scene is chaging faster than ever and techno which prides itself on being the most current as technoogy changes, seems to be the most left behind. Be it through only sticking to vinyl (which is very expensive now!!!!), its means of promotion, and even the mentality of tech heds themselves. I have been called a techno snob by friends in jest, but I know others who will piss on u if u dont have an awesome knowledge bank of techno.. how it works, where it came from etc... I know too many people who want to keep the scene "pure" and that in my opinion is a major factor hurting us. You need numbers to survive its that simple, going back to an abandoned warehouse with 60 kids.. (as fun as it would be) will not make the scene thrive. You need quality beats pumped out, an easier means to get it to others, and some type of image to get them hooked! Once they are hooked they will discover everything else. I personally grew up as a metal hed and hated all electronic music. I discovered core, and once I got bored of it I found techno. The thing about techno was that there were almost no limits to its sound, and now many things seem to sound the same.. One thign someone mentioned about 8 pages ago was soem type of central location for getting music. I think that would be a great idea. This forum is great for fans and artists aliek to interact, I think the same should go on a more profesional level. Communication is key and if all the channels of production are in the same loop then the end product should e acomplished easier. Sorry for the long post, and believe me I have plenty more to say, but you all have covered many good aspects...

[Internal Error Records]

maybe techno would do better if it pushed itself back into the rave scene :-)

afterall, thats where the real dj money is anyways...


there is so many good points in this thread that its getting hard to remember half of them.

the different views on this thread could be split into a 40 room forum each getting there own area of intense concentration.

maybe the answer is for us to spend less time online and more time out showing people how much fun techno is!