Ok guys lets face it.

[The Divide]

If we are going to talk about changing the format we may aswell talk about doing it to its full capabilities

Hows about some 24 bit 96k audio :love: when high speed internet takes off. Could take music beyond the usuall 16 bit 44.1k CD audio :love:

Music in surround sound anyone?

Mp3s = I would like to see the death of those things in the next few years if the internet speeds up

[gumpy green]

after speaking with variosu djs about this EVERY ONE SAID FUK THE CD....

so i challenge all producers that think cd is the way to go to start doing CD ONLY releases and see wher you get.... i recon 1 of 2 options ------ 1. yall force folks to use cd or 2. yall not sell very many.........the latter i think.

every dj ive spoken too is a vinyl luver and will continue supporting it until something better comes out(the cd is not a better tool for djing as discussed by many djs at the weekend)

[dirty_bass]

People as a whole resist change.

[gumpy green]

People as a whole resist change.

unless its a change for the better.

ive changed my setup about 4times since i started djing and will again no doubt.

but not for summin thats gonna push my style backwards....cds would just not suit me and would hamper me getting on with caining it....for the folks that play a record for 3 mins then blend the next one in the cds will do em...and the cds with automatic beatmatching will suit them even more i recon. go for it folks....

[dirty_bass]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.

Change will happen.
Vinyl will not be able to sustain the market.
So when no labels can afford to do vinyl any more, then what do you do?
It won`t happen immediatley, but to think vinyl will just go on forever in some kind of cosy unreality like The Good Life, is very naieve.

Some DJ`s are so up their own arses with their self inportance that they forget people like to hear a tune, rather than a trick or something every 5 seconds, and a billion tunes per hour.
A combination of all styles is the answer, and as with new technology, it needs to be brought into the current situation, because the world is leaping forward, and techno DJ`s are standing still.

[Sunil]

i personally hope vinyl doesnt die out. its ace.

I don't see it happening anytime soon. As long as pressing plants can keep their heads above water, and that some labels still want to press vinyl in the knowledge that it mightn't make them too much money (if any at all) then the future is safe. Vinyl has a collectible value for music enthusiasts, and if it was a great record or better still, a rare one.. then it may hold some kind of value in 10 or 15 years time.

If Jeff Mills, Autechre, Aphex or the next big thing released 'the' album or single of this decade next week, there would be widespread demand for it on vinyl, far more so than any other format. That isn't going to change, many people don't give two hoots which format is technically better, indeed many people are not even aware which may be superior. When push comes to shove the romantic side of people comes out to support vinyl, it's the real deal.. a large object, a chunk of hard plastic.

I think if music became better then the demand for vinyl might improve, right now much vinyl out there just isn't value for money.

[Sunil]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.
.

Steve, you are not a DJ. I don't see how you can poo poo an active DJ who most obviously prefers spinning vinyl, and sees no reason for change. I'm afraid you are the ignorant one here, because you are not listening to or trying to understand someone's reasons for wanting to use vinyl. Outside the subject of techno, where it's at, or how groundbreaking musically techno sets are or can be; there's a physical action of using vinyl that people enjoy. Respect that.

[gumpy green]

That`s a slightly childishly biased opinion.
To imply that you can`t make rapid mixes with CD is a typical comment from someone who fears change, and I know your not like that.
And auto beat matching would be fantastic.
Put in CD, wait a few seconds and BAM, you can mix, and get on with the important business.
Just you you spent years learning to beatmatch, there`s no reason to poo poo a device that would take out the bullshit mechanical process, to give more time for the creative part of mixing.

Change will happen.
Vinyl will not be able to sustain the market.
So when no labels can afford to do vinyl any more, then what do you do?
It won`t happen immediatley, but to think vinyl will just go on forever in some kind of cosy unreality like The Good Life, is very naieve.

Some DJ`s are so up their own arses with their self inportance that they forget people like to hear a tune, rather than a trick or something every 5 seconds, and a billion tunes per hour.
A combination of all styles is the answer, and as with new technology, it needs to be brought into the current situation, because the world is leaping forward, and techno DJ`s are standing still.

honestly cds could not support some of the stuff i do.........
ive actually tryed and they just dont work. the only sensors on cd deck ive saw is a backwards forward sensor(seeing if the platter is moving in either of 2 ways and speed of movement).....that does not represent a true vinyl, you cannot vibrate a cd deck and create the same noise as a real deck..

saying that cds will have some advantages but none yet that really take my fancy.

i cant see the differnece in sales figures if it was on cd either.....why would more folks buy more cds to mix than vinyl.....i suppose cds are cheaper to produce but i dont think they would end up selling any cheaper. Plus piracy would take a huge dent out the sales....

Well maybe one day vinyl will die but ill own enuf buy then to keep going. I just like it....... but i dont think it will die, i can remember the boy in our local decks shop tellin my mates this excact same thing about 10yrs ago, so they went and bought bmx's instead....now 1 o them has decks...wished hed never listened to the boy in the shop.

i agree about some djs being up ther own arse...... its great when i come along and pull them out. ;)

and yes alot off techno djs are standing quite still, this has nothing to do with not using technology, they just dont push the artform as much as it should/could be.

[dirty_bass]

I`ve been DJing for years and years, I choose not to anymore.
I own a stupid amount of vinyl.
I`m not poo pooing any DJ who plays it. But making up stuff about the versatility of other formats is a bit duff.
I`ve tried the other forms of technology as I try to keep abreast of it, and not only have I found it to be more creative and innovative to use, but also you have the option of using a non degrading high quality source of media.

I understand the reasons for people wanting to stay with vinyl and it is mostly resistance to change.

I love vinyl, but I am under no illusion as to the longevity of it beyond a collectors folly in the future.

I understand fully the shit of mp3. You get no product at the end of the day, and it is nice to have something for your money. Something tangible. Hence at the moment CD is the only other option, and the current technology finally brings it alongside vinyl (only fear of technology is holding it back a bit, in the same way that classical instrumentalists feared the advent of the electric guitar etc)
I`m not saying people need to burn their vinyl, but honestly there needs to be a serious collecitve chat by people in the industry to face the current problems, and to assess what we can do to help the future of techno.
Their shoudln`t even be an argument of vinyl versus CD, it is a useful technology.
It`s techno for gods sake, we`re supposed to be dealing with the future here. More people should be using both formats than currently are because of uninformed stigma.


All change is resisted, look at anything new, it always was resisted at the start, someone has to play devils advocate to bring things forward. What I`m saying is not to harm the scene in any way.

[gumpy green]

why would the cd be better for the techno ecomomy/sales?

if a single cd was £5 as was a single LP.

then folk would still buy the same amount......only thing i can see happening is more profit(dunno how much more the artist would get) as production costs would be well down....but i really do think piricy would totally fuk shit up, Were all going to have at least 4-8mb connections soon(prob higher the time for vinyl to die, if it did).. so, stealing tunes would be so easy, why buy?

it would be nice to think that folk would support ther artists and buy the orig but folk just like stuff for free. i can just see some folks "tune collection" if this was to happen...theyd have about every tune ther is and wouldnt have bought any of it.

[Sunil]

Thing is that some people use vinyl in different ways, cuing up with vinyl can be a lot faster for some people or indeed more natural. As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!

The problem with decks or more than 2 decks at once is that it encourages the DJ to play the same sounding records for the whole set, and puts showmanship above the music in most cases... finding that happy medium is obviously desirable.

I definitely think people need to look for that alternative to a third deck, be it a laptop, CD deck, a microphone or whatever! And to introduce more elements other than a loop that's the same as on the decks. Many of the current techno icons for fast mixing don't play inspiring music, others pretend to play on a massive DJ set up when they are doing little more than pressing a few FX and playing the same record again and again... we have to move beyond that and make things (and the quality of musical delivery) genuinely more exciting again. There's a whole world of music out there, techno needs to be less incestuous.

[dirty_bass]

why would the cd be better for the techno ecomomy/sales?

if a single cd was £5 as was a single LP.

then folk would still buy the same amount......only thing i can see happening is more profit(dunno how much more the artist would get) as production costs would be well down....but i really do think piricy would totally fuk shit up, Were all going to have at least 4-8mb connections soon(prob higher the time for vinyl to die, if it did).. so, stealing tunes would be so easy, why buy?

it would be nice to think that folk would support ther artists and buy the orig but folk just like stuff for free. i can just see some folks "tune collection" if this was to happen...theyd have about every tune ther is and wouldnt have bought any of it.

Ok well your figures for CD singles are based on the majors, and not on a system that could be set within the techno market.

It would be much easier to run things internationally as shipping would be so much cheaper. And curently vinyl shipping is sick. Causing places like south america to be a no go area (without accounbting for their crazy tax as well)

Production costs are lower, I`m sure we could sell the CD`s for a lower price than vinyl, and still improve the amount that goes to the artist.

As fo piracy effecting things.
Erm
It already is, you can go to soulseek and find anything that is on vinyl pretty much straight away.
So changing to digital format I don`t think will make a huge difference to the scurge of piracy.

[dirty_bass]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
.

Come on, lets not get immature here.
Beat matching is a mechanical skill, and is not what mixing is about.
A machine won`t be able to eq for you, or choose the tune, or choose the right place to mix depending on the way the crowd is going, or make little tricks that edge on the tension or whatever.

If you slapped a piece of vinyl straight on the deck and it was in as soon as it hit the platter, imagine how much of a cool mix you could do.

It makes the important part of mixing easy. Lets not pretend here that beatmatching is some amazing feat.

[Sunil]

As for talk of auto beat matching, I really don't like that idea I have to say, will these contraptions play your set for you as well?!
.

Come on, lets not get immature here.
Beat matching is a mechanical skill, and is not what mixing is about.
A machine won`t be able to eq for you, or choose the tune, or choose the right place to mix depending on the way the crowd is going, or make little tricks that edge on the tension or whatever.

If you slapped a piece of vinyl straight on the deck and it was in as soon as it hit the platter, imagine how much of a cool mix you could do.

It makes the important part of mixing easy. Lets not pretend here that beatmatching is some amazing feat.

hehe, no-one's being immature.
Cuing up fast is a skill in itself, why not recognise that?
Ever heard of Jeff Mills?
I don't feel I'm talking to someone here who DJs themselves or thinks like a DJ.. that's fine though ;)

Beatmatching is part one in the cycle of mixing a record. Nobody said beatmatching is an amazing feat, but it's a basic skill that DJs should have to attain.

[gumpy green]

about the cd sales thing...yeh i can see shipping tons of records would cost alot so yeh that is defo a good thing. but even at that i get alot of stuff from abroad and the shipping aint too bad....comparred to foks like juno- SHOCKING IMO, ive only ordered from them a couple of time cos of this....how much money they couldve made from me if ther shipping was cheaper.

ive had stuff over from germany that didnt cost too much, like 15 records costing maybe 7-8 quid for postage. but yes defo would save some money for folks selling/producing records.

but cmon surely the piricy thing will fuk shit up.....sure ther are foks dling loads of illegal tracks but ther arnet playing them out(mostley), djs are still buying records to play out, it would only be folk dling em to listen to..

if it remianed strictly wax then djs have to buy tracks..

about beatmatching....that is a dj skill and yes could be replaced but then whers the fun.....its so pleaseing to have held 2 tracks togther whilst equing mashing up effects all at the same time....iITS WHAT IS ABOUT, amanual skill.

leave the automation to live sets......

im totally with you about adding some other stuff to the dj setup......i plan on doing that sometime in the next yr or so....got a su700 that i think could work rally well with the deks. wanna be able to add my own vocals and noises over some tracks, think this may work well.

but ill still be keeping it all manual.

[eyes without a face]

is this still going?

i cant believe how some people just wont accept the argument Steve is putting over here, especially regarding sales, the mans speaking truth!

as for the technologies, damn, they are here already, so why do people talk like they are waiting for aliens to land with these new cd decks? the new technics and pioneers emulate a turntable 100% and thats the truth... 100 total english %... there is nothing any dj on here or anywhere could not do on it compared to a proper technic... apart from something like shaking the deck and getting the feedback, which im not sure why anyone wud want to do anyway really, especially in a packed club and risking the needle jumping, but anyways.....

can we move on people? can those who are afraid of new technologies and who are happy to sit in their bedroom on a heap of vinyl in 5 years please just accept that this change will happen, it already is but i mean one day itl b here, and vinyl will no longer be the primary format for techno releases, regardless of how many friends u may have who claim its still alive and kicking.... and can those who do embrace this change just errr i dunno... keep embracing it?

[gumpy green]

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this.

ill await to see this change and its effects...i for one think itll damage the sales but then again i could see this as a good thing, folk wont be in it for the money....., then only folk with the passion will do it, maybe less release but higher quality.

[Sunil]

is this still going?

i cant believe how some people just wont accept the argument Steve is putting over here, especially regarding sales, the mans speaking truth!

All this crystal ball gazing annoys me. Many labels lose money already, what happens if labels make better records? They could sell more, right? Why do we all assume that vinyl will just crumble and that'll be it? That every single label going will just go "Yeah, we've had enough" and stop pressing vinyl? Many labels lose money anyway, but continue regardless. Some labels I'm sure are selling more records now than they did when they started out. CD and vinyl sales are down, and by that reckoning we could say CDs are on their way out too, couldn't we? (there are some people who already say this)

People don't have to embrace CD decks fully. There's no doubt that they are useful machines, but not everyone needs or wants them to perform. Not everyone would enjoy the clinical nature of auto beat matching for instance, however they might like a CD deck just for playing their own tracks, alongside decks.. why can that not continue unchanged, I don't understand? It doesn't have to be one or the other, discard vinyl or else you aren't embracing the future.. that's rubbish.

[eyes without a face]

i dont mean discard it or fall at ur peril literaly, but one day, and i mean literaly here, vinyl production will stop... there will be one release that will be, and im talking officially in the eyes of the labels, manufacture's, the last record pressed to vinyl for distribution in the global market, there will b people pressing bootlegs up and what have u, and this maybe not in our how do i put it, "techno timescale" it maybe years after we all think, and sales will switch over completely to CD.... i just mean its silly and very strange to really not realise this will happen one day, and as ive just said it may not happen so that it affects us, but it will happen!!!..... i for one hope i never have to switch over to CD djing totally but if it has to be it has to be, im a total vinyl addict and cant even imagine it but over the next few years who knows what will happen... who knows how even further developed will technologies become in the switch over to the more digital age?.... time will tell

one thing you cant do is

needle dropping.

thats wher you hav stickers on yer record to guid the needle to the excact spot you want. hence droppin it right in where you want. that is an art in itself nevermind what comes after it. i suppose you could do it with cds if you could tell them the excact time to go to but this would take longer than lifting the record and droppin it on...but then again not many techno djs can be arsed learning shit like this

but this is real old skool hip hop stuff and ok u might enjoy doing this and u may do it really really really well, but practically, in a packed, techno club full of ur average punter whose out to have a good time, this is going to go relatively unoticed, unless u are at the top of ur game like someone like Dave Clarke where ur everymove is pretty much under scrutiny during the whole set... it makes sense to put more effort into the basic practicalities of djing such as beatmatching etc which again im sure u do just fine im not questioning any or your's or anyone else's skills for that matter, im a dab hand on the old turntables if i do say so myself but its not the be all and end all where im concerned its whats coming out the speakers at the end of the day....

which is pretty much what the whole thing boils down to for me..... whats coming out of those lovely speakers :)

[dirty_bass]

I`m leaving this now as it`s really not going anywhere.

I hope that things can be worked out by sensible people within the industry.

ill await to see this change and its effects...i for one think itll damage the sales but then again i could see this as a good thing, folk wont be in it for the money....., then only folk with the passion will do it, maybe less release but higher quality.

I hate it when I see statements like this.
I think most of the money motives have gone from techno, I doubt there are many people in it purely for the money, if you wann make money, then do house.
However artists are allowed to be recompensated for their work, and if you expect quality techno to go on being made to allow you to play records, when the artists recieve no recompense, then you are under an illusion.
The person that sells the vinyl at the shop gets paid, the person you buy your petrol from to drive your car to the record shop, gets paid, the postman who delivers the records to the shop gets paid.
Why shouldn`t the artist get something for the work he or she is making that gives these other people their jobs.



Regardless of the argument, that shouldn`t even be an argument, but more of a discussion to solve the problem.
Change is coming, and if not coming, it is most definitely needed.
The whole system is creaking now.
We currently sit in a state of limbo.
Vinyl`s future is uncertian.
No one really knows which format will be the dominant one in the future, and most people won`t even discuss it.
So currently we sit in this kind of wierd situation, where all the distributers and labels, are kind of scrabbling and shuffling on this sinking ship, to get to the highest point, no one has an idea about what to do, no one is even bailing any water out, and some people have their eyes closed and deny even the excistance of the approaching water.

Will things settle down to a reduced level and just stay that way?
Will there be a second dance explosion?
Will people suddenly reject all the new technology and go back to vinyl?
Will the market finally crash and only those who have jumped to the awaiting speedboat survive?

Who knows, but things need to be acknowledged for us to even begin to move ahead.