Most divided music scene in the world

[OriginalTechnobastard]

Like I've said don't think you are clever for thinking of it like its your idea. Anyone into Techno/Hiphop probably thought of it. I don't agree with hip-hop so why ruin something that is special? There is much better ideas than it. But whatever! You believe in it, do it. Like I've said be4, it won't stop people thinking its lame. Good for you guys think of the big league though :clap: And tocsin well done for using commercial success as a benchmark for importance as an achievement. :clap:

[OriginalTechnobastard]

By the way before you try anything check C Denza's Punisher! Sorry to break the bad news.

[tocsin]

Like I've said don't think you are clever for thinking of it like its your idea. Anyone into Techno/Hiphop probably thought of it. I don't agree with hip-hop so why ruin something that is special? There is much better ideas than it. But whatever! You believe in it, do it. Like I've said be4, it won't stop people thinking its lame. Good for you guys think of the big league though :clap: And tocsin well done for using commercial success as a benchmark for importance as an achievement. :clap:

Thanks for your suggestion. Seriously, if you want to assassinate my character based on the discussion of a sound which you haven't heard yet, or based on words which I've never said (ie. success being related to commercial exposure), just PM me. Nobody else needs to be subjected to it. But, don't worry, I'm not the one to run around and pretend to be the first kid on the block to do something. I don't see how it's relevant at all here.

[gunjack]

i would **** dat n*gga up. but seriously, you fools saying i am about cash? if i aint got no cash how the f4ck am i gonna make music? man i aint about selling out techno, i am about GETTING MINE after years of dues paying, if you smart you would be too. F4CK all this snobbery, music belongs to everybody. IF I MADE A SHITTY TRANCE RECORD JUST TO MAKE DOUGH THEN YOU FOOLS COULD SAY THAT BULLSHIT, but as it stands i MAKE THIS MUSIC FOR ME STRICTLY, but just because i try to be a bit more clever about marketing it just means that i will be in the biz alot longer than you narrow minded little kids. this shit is funny man, kids on a techno board calling me a sellout! do yo thang kids, i ain't mad at ya. but i ain't about to rot into obscurity just to be considered "purist" by some kids on the web. go listen to my records, make your own and then talk shit. dang i am wasting my time on this bbs lol!!! you all still dont try to see that i am trying to encourage you young artists to get yours!!!! you think mills is a sell out because he does his marketing tight? get with it, this is entertainment, you got to keep your eye on the prize.

Who let Tupac in? Seriously this has nothing to do with my disagreement with Tocsin, but do you seriously think you're revolutionary for mixing up beats of techno with mcing? I've mean using the great production of Techno or Electro with, 'appealling to millions' of rap is not something unique. I thought about this before but if you are going to do this then it won't be Techno. Everyone knows the kids talk about the beat, how rap is to dance to but most of hiphop production is dire(along with the idea of mcing). If you are fusing hip-hop it would be totally 'selling-out'. What else would you call it? Because rap is good? You're fusing mainstream with Techno. I think the though if you think that music has really something to offer, then its your opinion. So I guess you are being honest with yourself. It won't change how people look at you Then I guess you want to meet PDiddy! Hehehehe. So many people over in US think hip-hop and reggae is the only dance music it would be kind of funny when they see all these European guys with some serious bangers :clap: :clap: :clap: Teach them a lesson!

are you talking to me? pffffft

you know what? F4ck all your lil' assumptions, i never "jumped" to hip hop, i have so many projects bro, and been making hip hop since BEFORE i ever made techno. who the f4ck do you think you are?


ANYWAY



and shlong, I AINT TRYING TO COMMERCIALIZE TECHNO MUSIC, i am trying to commercialize the way in which we do business.


take the word commercial, what is the root word? commerce!


websters says:

Main Entry: 1com·merce
Pronunciation: 'kä-(")m&rs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin commercium, from com- + merc-, merx merchandise
: social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments.


hmmm sounds good to me!

[GothamGrooves.com]

White boys making hip hip just don`t have the cred.
Eminem did it. But look who was pulling the strings.
You present a bunch of gangster culture kids, with the intelligently made, but basically zero cred (in their eyes) of techno, they are gonna pass it over without even blinking.
UNLESS
You get a mate to shoot you 10 TIMES!!
then you got fiddy beat hands down, and the kids will think your cool.

Umm let me give all you boyz n girlz a qick lesson. The whole gangster thing was in the late 80's and early 90's. Right now its all an image, and it is fueled by a bunch of white kids who have too many resources at their disposal. Once these wiggers taste the real world things will change.
The dorky white boyz at the top are pulling the strings, using these "artists" as puppets to drive the image forward. simple as that

[dirty_bass]

White boys making hip hip just don`t have the cred.
Eminem did it. But look who was pulling the strings.
You present a bunch of gangster culture kids, with the intelligently made, but basically zero cred (in their eyes) of techno, they are gonna pass it over without even blinking.
UNLESS
You get a mate to shoot you 10 TIMES!!
then you got fiddy beat hands down, and the kids will think your cool.

Umm let me give all you boyz n girlz a qick lesson. The whole gangster thing was in the late 80's and early 90's. Right now its all an image, and it is fueled by a bunch of white kids who have too many resources at their disposal. Once these wiggers taste the real world things will change.
The dorky white boyz at the top are pulling the strings, using these "artists" as puppets to drive the image forward. simple as that

Erm, your point?


Anyway, a discussion on improving promotion and improving the business side of techno definitely needs addressing.
However, I think a lot of the underlying problems lie with the nature of the system at the moment, and not necessarily with the music itself.

Of course, as has been said in this forum many times before. The road into techno can be a rather convoluted one. So there does need to be some way of exposing techno to people outside the club scene.
Techno supergroup?

In terms of general promotion, I think something beyond the old promo`s sent to DJ`s, or magazine reviews (magazines are distribution fewer and fewer numbers,and the review is just an opinion, and isn`t really related to the music in any way) is needed.

I have a project I am setting up to improve promotion opportunities for labels, but at the end of the day, it`s basically down to a bit more money and effort being thrown into things.

[tocsin]

Is marketing really the problem? Or is it that most people think they've heard the sound before and find it dull?

[dirty_bass]

Well any product or markey needs fresh customers, so too speak.
Old customers will always get bored, too old, move on or whatever.
I don`t think techno is really getting enough exposure to new people.

[MARKEG]

deaf/tocsin, please calm down guys.. for me.. pleeeeeasseee???!!!!

:lol: :lol:

do you know, i like this topic. and i have to say, i'm feeling what you're saying right there deaf. i badly want techno to be accepted and to be fair we need someone to take it further than the boys did in the early 90's. and you're right, mills, clarke and hawtin etc have the marketing down to a t. and that's why they are the sucesses they are.

but with some sort of 'commercialism', as long as the roots are in place and the RIGHT people are there to take it forward, then I can't see a problem. as long as you're stilll allowing the genre to be creative then SO WHAT. but that's the confusion i'm seeing on this thread. people think any type of commercialism automatically means the music will suffer.

well after years of being involved in this industry and sometimes djing and being involved with the border of ' the commercial industry' (mags/certain venues/major companies), i say you CAN keep the innocennce of creativity and art and mix it with a healthy business sense, to take your product to more people. the problem we have is not enough people in the techno scene that can fuse business and art. 90% of artists in this genre haven't got a clue about marketing, about dealing in the business world with professional people and if they ever were propelled into the spotlight, they know they'd be shagged up the ass, so they maintain a low key 'faceless' techno approach and spend their lives stuggling to survive, putting out beautiful music. then one day knock it all on the head and have to get a real job. absolutely tragic and not something that i will ever allow to happpen to me.

i used to say the same as alot of people on here. carl cox sell out this, 'must keep techno underground' that. well to a certain extent this is true, creativity really thrives when you have to struggle. but it can also thrive in a different way when you don't have to struggle. stinky warehouses that stink of piss are amazing places in my book, but so is sitting in my new studio where everything is new, lights are flashing, i've just had a good hoover round and everything is neat and tidy. ahhhhhh lovely feeling. you've just gotta make sure that once that studio door is shut NOTHING you do is governed by outside forces of the business stuff you're involved in.

what's wrong with then coming out and trying to take your product to as many ppl as possible???? i mean REALLY. what the hell is wrong with that.

just a quick point though. hip hop. hmmmmm.. i'm not feeling that will work. hip house was great in 1988/9 for the 4/4 generation, a bit of a laugh, but never reallly had the attidue that young ppl needed in music. i'm not going to say it cant be done, hell i can't wait to hear the results, but surely if this was that easy to achieve it would have been done already. i mean let's be sensible here. house and electro/hip-hop have been running alongside each other for twenty years now. why has no-one done it already???? i'll tell you why.... i thiink you know my answer

;)

OK great discussion. Keep it friendly eh :clap:

[Stella Boy]

I still don`t see techno moving into MTV domain is healthy.
You can increase the audience of the music, and the commerciality, without having to turn to something like MTV to do this.

How ?

Radio ? - Pah, if radio in england is to go by then forget it
Magazines ? - Pah, especially with the amount of sh!te publications about at the moment

[SlavikSvensk]

i agree with you, mark...while i personally don't think mixing techno with hip-hop is the way forward, i would keep an open mind if someone came along and did it in an original and engaging manner.

my beef with techno nowadays is that it much of it seems too self-referential and inbred. would LOVE to hear a new underground record that hit me the way "the wipe" or "heavenly" still do, or tore it up like "the bells." and i really wouldn't mind if someone did crossover, as long as it was creative and of high-quality...

maybe the key is for people who love techno to just plain make music, and try to free themselves of the sub-genre boundaries we impose upon ourselves...

[Evil G]

i actually see some people in hip-hop moving towards us as well. there are lots of posts on message boards from hip-hop producers who are asking about which synths they would need to add some "rave" leads to their tracks. many are looking for that 97 super-saw trance sound, but if they haven't heard much techno, they have to start somewhere.

[MARKEG]

RE: Most divided music scene in the world.

The reason in my book why techno gets all these arguments is cause there is no rule book! So no-one knows what is acceptable and what isn't. It's all a matter of opinion. It's like this discussion we're having above about commercialism. Who's right?! I'm 100% convinced I am based upon what I've leart.... but I could be wrong - if I really think about it. There's alot I don't know.

There's only a handful of people that have ever crossed the commercial divide and those are the guys that hold the rule book on that one. Until that point I can only speculate and argue my corner.

Techno = No Rules. There's your problem. It's the same with any genre that holds these principles, surely.

[Evil G]

maybe the key is for people who love techno to just plain make music, and try to free themselves of the sub-genre boundaries we impose upon ourselves...

:clap:

[MARKEG]

soory guys wasn't breaking up your convo, but i thought i better put my thoughts on the orginal topic too hehehe.

[SlavikSvensk]

Techno = No Rules. There's your problem. It's the same with any genre that holds these principles, surely.

isn't there something along those lines in the liner notes to "techno: the new dance sound of detroit?"

hmm...well, close i guess...

Derrick May: "it's a question of respect, house still has it's heart in 70's disco, we don't have any of that respect for the past, it's strictly future music. we have a much greater aptitude for experimentation."

(of course they had plenty of respect for kraftwerk, george clinton, new order, moroder, etc.)

[tocsin]

First things first, Mark. I'm not getting worked up here at all. But, I do get tired of people equating change or anything that doesn't fit the mold "selling out." That is not something that is unique to techno and, personally, I think it's absolutely great for stifling creativity. I grow particularly alarmed as it seems, with every passing year, a style of music that I got into largely due to it's complete artistic freedom, has been co-opted by rules and interests that are increasingly anal. "Over-specialize and you breed in weakness."

As for hip-hop, in my opinion, it has never been implemented in a manner where it becomes one with the techno sound. There have been some occurrences you've mentioned that complimented each other. But, it wasn't really one cohesive unit. That being said, a 4-on-the-floor thump does not define techno either. At least, not for me. My definition for "techno" is probably a lot more liberal than most since I consider it music made with "technology." There is no reason to revisit the house/hip-hop or house/electro sound. But, what about using harder edged sounds that aren't all samples, play with time signatures more, involve some possible live instruments, and then involve a number of vocalists with a different message than what is being sold? Take into consideration as well that good musicians play off of each other and influence the over-all sound. If you get a number of people together with different influences who aren't ego-maniacs (and that can be quite dificult), the results can be great. Usually,
at that point, the biggest limitations will be what you can physically do. If you guys have the impression that I'm talking about the techno you listen to now that would get discussed in here with Nelly over the top, you got the wrong idea. Ideally, it won't sound like either. It certainly wouldn't with me. So, Mark, I think the reason nobody is trying it is because it appears that nobody is trying it. There certainly isn't any reason for hip-hop labels to take a risk with a sound that wouldn't quite fit what has been a working formula. The same would go for techno labels. But, as has been heard in some mainstream elements of hip-hop, and as some have pointed out here, hip-hop producers are looking for techno sounds now. So, for all you know, there's a new growing underground, if not already existant, with newer ideas and sounds hatching out of it that just isn't quite old enough to have been discovered by all the vultures to pick clean through exploitation. While it's just my gut speaking, I see a
possible future exploitation here which is completely removed from the bigbeat vs. hip-hop trainwreck of collaborations that were marketed here in the past. I've seen a general warming up to techno sounds from the hip-hop community again which, for awhile, appeared quite closed despite the fact that production tools and techniques were so similar. So, personally, I just think it would be crazy not to get in with some new heads and see what everyone can come up with before that sound gets snatched up in the jaws of the mainstream industry where, rather than doing your own sound, you have to play to their formula. For me, news sounds with new people iswhat makes music fun. If it's a financial failure, so what? The music that I have out on vinyl/CD is Terrorcore so I've never exactly been worried about sales. But, if it worked out, it would be something new and fun. "New and fun" is not something I've felt come out of the techno scene in my neck of the woods in a long time. Attitude seemed to take over.
A pseudo-punk attitude where, rather than rebelling, the focus seemed to be rebellion through conforming to the techno underground. It's stifling as all hell at that point. But, I'm not really going to be able to explain what I'm talking about here. If I meet the right people and it works out, I'll post MP3s here. If I'm lucky, years later I can come back here and bitch about people swapping my MP3s as keeping food off my table. :p ;)

[MARKEG]

tocsin, i'm with you. totally down with most of that reply. you've got ideas, you think you can make change and i say good luck to you. bring it on. i too have listened to some recent hip-hop and thought - my god, that's techno. perhaps a 'techno reaction to hip-hop' would be a better way to think of it all. rather than a 'hip-hop reaction to techno'??? that way you keep the ethos of techno (which is waaaaayyyyy more music orientated than hip hop these days imho). or is that then in keeping with the 'purist' attiude you speak of that is so damaging? hmmm....

ok, good shit posted on here.... gone a bit off topic eh.... so let me start a new topic...

BACK ONTO THE SUBJECT::::: Techno is too divided?? Yes Or No???

[SlavikSvensk]

BACK ONTO THE SUBJECT::::: Techno is too divided?? Yes Or No???

the acrimony on here makes me think yes...probably even more than i originally believed, and for a number of reasons:

a) divide between avant-garde-ists and those who want to see techno become more popular

b) divide between old-schoolers and new-schoolers

c) divide between purists and experimenters

d) divide among sub-genres

e) divide between detroitophiles and euro-centrics

f) divide between vinyl traditionalists and new media advocates

and, worst of all...

f) divide among those who don't listen to other people because they've already decided they don't want to listen to what those people have to say.

[Komplex]

BACK ONTO THE SUBJECT::::: Techno is too divided?? Yes Or No???

the acrimony on here makes me think yes...probably even more than i originally believed, and for a number of reasons:

a) divide between avant-garde-ists and those who want to see techno become more popular

b) divide between old-schoolers and new-schoolers

c) divide between purists and experimenters

d) divide among sub-genres

e) divide between detroitophiles and euro-centrics

f) divide between vinyl traditionalists and new media advocates

and, worst of all...

f) divide among those who don't listen to other people because they've already decided they don't want to listen to what those people have to say.

:clap:

That just about sums up this whole topic.