yeah, well, i only agree with ritzi's original statement to the point of accepting joey beltram as one of the first people to make techno hard, and thus a massive and undeniable influence (either directly or indirectly) on what came after.

he's not the only person to have thought of that (the belgians), nor was he working in a vacuum. neither were industrial musicians.

everyone is influenced by what came before them on a given tragectory...