Is Ableton The Most Important Thing To Happen In Techno ?

[Komplex]

Just thought I'd quote tihs off the Abe's forum :)

OK. I don't want to add to the noise floor here anymore - I've got to put in my $0.02 once and not repeat myself on this, since I can see it comes up again and again. I have to get this off my chest, but I won't repeat the points below ever again. Ever. That's a promise.

(though I might link to this thread...)

1. The dumbing down of Live 5 into an automatic beat detecting grid based DJ tool is tragic, but necessary for the survival of the corporate entity that is Ableton.

2. This dumbing down of Live as stated in point 1 will saturate the digital music performance labour market with every pinhead with an mp3 collection.

3. This saturation of the market will also erode Live's reputation as a tool for creative performers and composers. Promoters and punters will soon look on Live sets disdainfully as nothing requiring talent at all - and in many cases they will be right.

4. This dumbing down exacerbates the fact (yes, fact) that DJing is inheirently a no-talent activity when compared to live music creation. Why?

4.a. It is much easier to identify a good track, than it is to compose one on the fly.

4.b. Regarding the arguement that a DJs real talent is reading the crowd, an improvisational musician does the same on a higher order of magnitude...

4.c. Regarding the technical skill in mixing records, I learned in less than a two weeks. It's not hard, and Live 5 makes it even easier.

5. The arguement that "it's just about the music who cares how it's made" is infuriating. The lack of appreciation for effort and hard work is killing western civilization. The over-appreciation of DJs is just one of many symptoms of a sick society that values style over substance and worships immediate gratification without effort.

6. Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians. As well, DJs who compose their own music or are musicians in their own right are excluded from most portions of the above rant - When composing they are at least engineers and artists.

'nuff said. I say the above now just to put it on the record and not have to speak of it again. I also promise not to post on Mac/PC debates or Sasha threads ever again.
_________________
L8er
Monty Bréqs

Discuss...

[xfive]

I read that on the ableton forum.. although you can take it as being completely true... if you really think about it its just one guy getting a bit worked up..... it's just evolution of a tool.

It is now up to us as the user to use these newly acquired advantages to do shit that's still pushing limits.

Things like this undoubtedly happen as time goes on. Assembly lines? Um... calculators?

It's like saying easily accessible recording equipment caused all musicians to suddenly be lazy and shitty because they could record multiple takes... is this true? In some cases yes.. but those cases are usually obvious after you see truly talented people pull the shit off live and make your jaw drop. Then you realize exactly how good they are and that others in fact do use the tools as means to an end instead of just another tool in the arsenal.

All that's being done in this case is shortening the time it takes for your brain to think of something, and actually manifesting it in sound.

[Martin Dust]

Isn't the question a bit like saying "Isn't a pencil the most important thing to happen to drawing?" It's not the tool, it's what you do with it.

And yeah loads of people haven't had a problem, but this is a bug and I can trap the memory leak - I've sat and watched it happen - piss poor if you ask me because it is possible to repeat it time and time again.

[Martin Dust]

Isn't the question a bit like saying "Isn't a pencil the most important thing to happen to drawing?" It's not the tool, it's what you do with it.

And yeah loads of people haven't had a problem, but this is a bug and I can trap the memory leak - I've sat and watched it happen - piss poor if you ask me because it is possible to repeat it time and time again.

[gumpy green]

Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians. As well, DJs who compose their own music or are musicians in their own right are excluded from most portions of the above rant - When composing they are at least engineers and artists.

word....and beatmathers aint pushing shit,

now the smae could happen with ableton, so easy to put toghether mediocrs stuff.

but then like the turntablists yall get folks that push these simple tools and really come up with soo much creativity.

yall still get folks doing crazy crazy shit cos ableton is a great tool(hopefully they stand out from the crowd), but ther will be loads of foks knocking out easy to do stuff.

[Heroes]

Reason has arguably led to an increase in rubbish records as people put anything out desperate to be the next big thing.

spot on + add to that distributor quality control, bang you have it, if i saw a dj using ableton in a prewarped track way id be well pissed......it would be like watching the american grand prix all over again

[dan the acid man]

haha, the american grand prix :lol: :lol:

[eyes without a face]

Just thought I'd quote tihs off the Abe's forum :)

OK. I don't want to add to the noise floor here anymore - I've got to put in my $0.02 once and not repeat myself on this, since I can see it comes up again and again. I have to get this off my chest, but I won't repeat the points below ever again. Ever. That's a promise.

(though I might link to this thread...)

1. The dumbing down of Live 5 into an automatic beat detecting grid based DJ tool is tragic, but necessary for the survival of the corporate entity that is Ableton.

2. This dumbing down of Live as stated in point 1 will saturate the digital music performance labour market with every pinhead with an mp3 collection.

3. This saturation of the market will also erode Live's reputation as a tool for creative performers and composers. Promoters and punters will soon look on Live sets disdainfully as nothing requiring talent at all - and in many cases they will be right.

4. This dumbing down exacerbates the fact (yes, fact) that DJing is inheirently a no-talent activity when compared to live music creation. Why?

4.a. It is much easier to identify a good track, than it is to compose one on the fly.

4.b. Regarding the arguement that a DJs real talent is reading the crowd, an improvisational musician does the same on a higher order of magnitude...

4.c. Regarding the technical skill in mixing records, I learned in less than a two weeks. It's not hard, and Live 5 makes it even easier.

5. The arguement that "it's just about the music who cares how it's made" is infuriating. The lack of appreciation for effort and hard work is killing western civilization. The over-appreciation of DJs is just one of many symptoms of a sick society that values style over substance and worships immediate gratification without effort.

6. Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians. As well, DJs who compose their own music or are musicians in their own right are excluded from most portions of the above rant - When composing they are at least engineers and artists.

'nuff said. I say the above now just to put it on the record and not have to speak of it again. I also promise not to post on Mac/PC debates or Sasha threads ever again.
_________________
L8er
Monty Bréqs

Discuss...

i laughed hard at a few of those comments on there... he learned to mix in 2 weeks did he? well il bet my bottom dollar he's a ****in shit dj because Dj's never stop learning, even if its new tricks, new scratches, new techniques etc etc...

this title of this thread could be infinately better worded i.e "Is Ableton the biggest thing to happen to music performance"

[TechMouse]

"Isn't a pencil the most important thing to happen to drawing?"

Umm....

... well ...

... wasn't it?

[zaalmoetlos]

atleast the most important thing that has happened recently as it can take the whole scene in a, in my opinion, much needed new direction which has been long overdue.

[The Divide]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

[eyes without a face]

"Isn't a pencil the most important thing to happen to drawing?"

Umm....

... well ...

... wasn't it?

probably not, im guessing charcoal or chalk probably had a bigger impact, ive not seen many examples of cave paintings that were done with a nice HB pencil :lol: ;)

i dont think Reason is soley to blame, remember, even if using software that others deem below par, if u work hard enough you can get the desired results, its the people who literaly do rush releases out that are done in programs like Reason or Fruity Loops, i mean to the point where they actually do sound like they were done in the said program, they are the ones who get my goat up... it is possible to produce quality tracks with both, i dont think that was the debate here anyway...

[holotropik]

Ableton is an overrated piece of shit!!

Everyone is ranting on too much about it and they dont see how the punter sees it....as a dork with a laptop doing nothing but stare at a screen.

Its no different than any other program. It arranges stuff...so what!!

Oh thats right.....it makes it easy to say that you can play LIVE doesnt it and thats good for the EGO right now aint it.

It will back-fire I can tell you that coz it leaves itself open to cheating and cutting corners and therefore negates musicianship that is necessary for REAL performance magic. Go on kid yourself that its OK but you will leave it in the future coz it wont stick all by itself.....

[eyes without a face]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

exactly, ive yet to hear an actual production that was soley done in ableton, as pointed out it just enables a simpler method for playing your prerecorded stuff out, which to me doesnt mean it has an impact on the scene as a whole, certainly not the production side of things

[zaalmoetlos]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

if it's used to replace decks then it offers nothing new, when used creatively it does alow you to do stuff which cannot be done on decks and then it can push things in new directions imo

[Heroes]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

if you use the loop side to make tunes i agreee, but flip it over to tha arranger and you have it all really, it has midi, and most of all tight and stable without getting unwanted shuffle, you can programme drums, synths anything. control external equiptment change banks, sounds, you can do a hell of a lot of control and be very precise, if you choose to sample you can speed up production by not having nightmare pitch sessions trying to get it to fit. i wonder if the hip hop or rnb people bitch as much as the electronic mob about sampling......most of all i think it is evoluting production, but its evoluting as much as the people pressing the buttons wants it too.......if you dont dig deep you wont get the oil.........

[djfurness]

i just like the fact i can mix tunes ive made on it really....
not much else....
i aint really got onto it as much as i could yet....
i prefer traktor for mixing anyways.....only for my breakcore though.....
techno & dnb needs to be mixed on decks imo....
i agree that too many people may start billin themselves as live though....
like im playin tomorrow in Liverpool on my laptop....but i dont wanna be billed as 'live'.....im not live.....im mixing other musicians breakcore tunes that ive uploaded from record....and mixing friends tracks given to me on cd....
plus i wont just be starin at a screen neither....im gonna be dancin more than anyone in the room.....thats the only advantage i can gain from it!

[Komplex]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

exactly, ive yet to hear an actual production that was soley done in ableton, as pointed out it just enables a simpler method for playing your prerecorded stuff out, which to me doesnt mean it has an impact on the scene as a whole, certainly not the production side of things

If you have been listening to any form of music for the past two years, you would have heard dozens of tracks sequenced and produced in Abes without even knowing. Thats the beauty of it. If you have a decent background in the oldschool way of working on hardware, Ableton fits like a glove because of it's direct interface/workflow... infact you don't even need a background in any way of working. Just talent to write good tracks.

However just to clear things up, is this thread about writing and producing music or playing back music dj/semi live style? In any case, it has taken the scene by the throat and music is better for it. The performance aspect, actually seeing someone perform with it on a single laptop is quite lame but have techno live acts ever done more than stare into their gear pressing unknown buttons? It must be the flashy lights that make the difference ;) The image of a lot of gear makes the difference I guess and cheating can be done just as easily on a bunch of hardware boxes as it can when using a laptop. Except gear looks cooler. In any case, it comes down to the person using it. Two different people can use the same thing completely differently... one can do it half arsed one can rock it. One can play music you like, one can play music you hate.

[Komplex]

i agree that too many people may start billin themselves as live though....

Thats my only real problem. Where is the line drawn.

I remember a few years back I was booked to play live alongside an international who was also booked to play live. (Hi Adam ;) )

Spent a good few weeks getting material sorted on the gear, almost broke my back lugging 60 kilos of hardware and jammed out my set like I'd always done it, had a ball, music was great.

Later on it was the other live acts turn and its just Ableton a mixer and a looper. And it sounded ****ing great, the crowd loved it and he got paid more too :)

So I thought, why bother going to the extra trouble stuffing around with a crapload of obsolete hardware if someone can be booked as "live" and rock up with a laptop, still pull off a good set, if not better and get away with it. I was a bit pissed off but not too pissed off, it was time for a change and I just needed some convincing... So I decided to investigate and ended up buying a lappy and Abes myself. Best thing I ever did. Cut the kit list in half by replacing two samplers, the sequencer and the flexibility of what I could do live expanded a whole lot, and its a kick arse sequencer in the studio too.

So yeah I guess for me, it is the best thing to happen in techno. Is it good for the whole techno scene? Well that depends on who you are, where you're from, where you're at and where you're going... not to mention personal tastes and oppinions.

As for noobs getting their hands on this stuff... who really cares. It will take a few years to get to a decent level and pay dues anyway. And if they're still around and do a good job then I won't complain because personally, some of the current guys need to move aside or stop whining and lift their game.

Anyone who pumps out good music that I can actually enjoy gets my respect, whether noob or pro.

[xfive]

Personally I would like to see less people writing tracks in ableton and more people using midi to actually program beats. Forgive me but I just cant see ableton been the thing that pushes techno in a 'new direction' as it doesnt really do anything new

exactly, ive yet to hear an actual production that was soley done in ableton, as pointed out it just enables a simpler method for playing your prerecorded stuff out, which to me doesnt mean it has an impact on the scene as a whole, certainly not the production side of things

All of my production is solely done in ableton.. I sometimes trigger gear with it.. sometimes not..
But start to finish its all within Live.

Do I think it's pushing techno in a new direction? Not really... I just like it's interface better than others.. it's faster for me.