"progress"

[gunjack]

to continue some of the ideas from the CmC thread, the ableton thread etc.

thoughts, questions on inovation....

first of all, i have been going back into modal, free and avant gard jazz, from the 60's to date. looking at this point in musical history as an era of concentrated inovation and "progress" these artists, bird, miles, coleman et. all were contradictory to say the least. lost tapes are still being found that shed new light on the oxymoron of "progress". had coletrane not died in one of his most conservative periods, might some random curve of play had brought back the exploration of his earlier career?


anyway fast forward to techno. these ideas of pushing forward, breaking boundaries etc. stem from the creative expressionism of this era very DIRECTLY. looking at the discussions here, one could easily subsitute the words - "experimental/dark techno" with "post bop/freejazz" and replace the dirty word: "trance" or "progresive" with "jazz crusado" or.... erm... "progressive" (lol)

the parallels are very obvious i know, but i would like to go into the diferences:


jazz era: one built one's career, or body of work based on live improv and touring. musicians only had to play well and find the right representation.

techno: look at the word "techno" juan used this word, diriving it from kraftwerk's interpretation of music "techological". anyway Hight technology is the name of the game, but the principles are the same. but this time, music is not all it is about. to be an "inovator" seems to me, to be more about exploiting new medias, our technology in order to move ahead.

how does one do that? by simply using technology to make tracks? well, i feel that since the origins of the "structure" we now refer to as techno, there have been many revelations and variations on the sound. the same thing happened to bop. some ppl went into making motown and pop (quincy jones, herbie hancock etc.) and others went into other territories like freejazz and avant gard (ornette, miles <pre 80's>, etc.) the same thing has happened with folks like beyer vs. folks like surgeon. did ppl give quicy and herbie shit for being "soft"? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. alot worse things were said about these two pioneers than "ikea music". and still, when one reflects on the impact they had, on music (dare i say pop) culture itself, respect must be given for the overwhelmingly immense changes these fellows brought about.


so the argument of some of these "purists" on the board about techno not having any thing to do with pop or even commercialism are really contradictory. herbie made "rock it" and the critics familiar with his groundbreaking appearences with miles etc. SCOFFED and dismised his new projects as FLUFF and commercialism. this track went on to spawn techno.

so now we come full circle. from dixieland to freejazz, to motown, to early electro, to techno.

the problem is that folks who get into techno were most likely born in the late 70's and early 80's and are usually not interested in study of how we got to where we are.


but beyond the "classic" ideals we discuss time and again here on boa, the lifestyle issue is something often overlooked by most of you "purits" here n the board.


techno. t e c h n o. the lifestyle we lead nowadays is so closely linked with new medias and technology that i feel the term techno goes way beyond just making beats or playing records.

the "purists" on the board will not disagree, i think, to the idea of a "responsibility" to push the boundries forward by pushing technology to the limit... but what boundries are we talking about? musically, if miles had put down the trumpet to "search for a new sound" we would never have had the structural inivations of "bitches brew" which were natural continuances of the traditional structures of pre bop jazz and the two decade old structures of rock. to put it simple, miles created new sub genres with every record, by reworking the "traditional" structures from the inside out.

but techno is not just about music. that sense of "responsibility" i mentioned earlier, somehow, inexplicably, has notcarried over into the other, essential mediums linked to techno, as much as one would think.

the idea of pushing technology as a means of expression, means that besides making fresh and intersting music with computers and machines etc. ...
we are "responsible" for expressing our ideas, imaging and information about our work in general through new and interesting, technological means.


but still i hear all these ppl complaining about "marketing", "success and the game" etc. what do you people think? that this is jazz? this is 2005 and we are not trumpet players who have managers and labels to work out the details for us.

techno started out diy and now this idea by the 4th wave that the generation above us owes us a living is just rediculous. it is up to us to use these emerging mediums to present ourselves, our ideas and work in general, to the interested parties (dare i say consumers?)

if we are not able to do that, we are simply half, or 3/4s of the "artists" we should be.



anyway this rant comes from a number of factors. the CmC debate. the dirty bass "next level" debate, my brother and i wrking in the studio for the last month and then having these discussions during playback... etc. etc. etc.



the points i think we should discuss are not the paralells i have been making about jazz, these are just examples, i feel we should be focusing more on MUSIC, ART, EXPRESSION and BUILDING A STRONG NETWORK OF FREE IDEAS, rather than, stumbling over new technolgies like ableton or max msp. there will always be a new platform, techno, even though it may sound stale to most of us right now, IS STILL MOVING. into what direction is up to us.


so guys, try to be a bit more open minded about new ideas, after all this music is less than a quarter of a century old. this is still just the second phase. electronic music isn't going to dissapear tomorrow, and even if it did, the modal ideas etc. we have created with this music would live on through instrumentation. so instead of thinking of the "new sound" as a new way of sequencing, new patches etc., when one stands back to look at the big picture, it is the nuances that we put into the music that defines our sound, the way we interpret the structures in which we work and reinterprate them is what defines our work. a miles solo, when looked at as notation, shoes not many inovative progressions or scale bending, the notes are quite simple and non-harmelodic. but to hear him play it. it aint the tone and position of his notes, it is the energy and feeling he somehow expressed through relatively simple ideas that made his work so genius.






anyway anybody understand WTF i am on about???

[TechMouse]

... an interesting read dude, no doubt.

Not sure I agree with everything you say 100%, but I do agree that a lot of people are so hung up on how people do stuff that they forget that it's what they do that's important.

[slavestudios]

a lot of people are so hung up on how people do stuff that they forget that it's what they do that's important.

:clap: :clap: :clap:





i find some ppl want a boundary breakin record every time they go wax shoopin..


whast wrong with a simple percussion track ? i like to be pushed in hearin & understanding music, but good god, whats wrong with a boogy to a good bongo track with a big 4/4 ? is it THAT much of a crime ? jeeeez...



see, its all this bullshit that put me out of favour with the scene... NOT the music, but the comstant snobbery & bickering that comes with it...

[gunjack]

the thing is that folks have this idea of a "new sound" like when i was in spain, the whole offbeat thing, the kids thought this was the "new sound"... why because you changed the position of the kick???

[xfive]

anyway anybody understand WTF i am on about???

Yes.. and I think Jazz was the perfect parallel to use because it is the most similar to techno that I can possibly think of.

[slavestudios]

the thing is that folks have this idea of a "new sound" like when i was in spain, the whole offbeat thing, the kids thought this was the "new sound"... why because you changed the position of the kick???

soooo true... theres this belfast kid who djs the odd gig & he reckons hes all up on techno..


bangin about Ruskin, Innigo Kennedy & Dj Slip being the future of techno...

tit

[slavestudios]

sorry, he also thinks Kennedy & Slip are fresh out the box & that broken techno is new...

which is so painful i cant even laff about it..

[gunjack]

funny you mention slip, i will be with him working on some things for july and part of august, anyway back on topic.


i feel that while the music is THE MOST IMPORTANT element, i think there is alot more to our role in "techno culture" than just providing the soundtrack...

[TechMouse]

i feel that while the music is THE MOST IMPORTANT element, i think there is alot more to our role in "techno culture" than just providing the soundtrack...

Well, I for one put in countless hours talking rubbish on here, day in day out.

[slavestudios]

i feel that while the music is THE MOST IMPORTANT element, i think there is alot more to our role in "techno culture" than just providing the soundtrack...

see, thats one reason i liked techno. no dress code, no look, no peripheral s**t..


how wrong was i :roll:

[Komplex]

anyway anybody understand WTF i am on about???

yeah sort of. altho jazz is jazz, this isn't.

However I think what you're getting at is PERSONALITY. Making the music unique to the artist, giving it that personal touch. Not necesarily pushing bounderies, just making it different. What we have is a lot of tracks that sound like everything else... duplicates. Maybe thats the nature of the instruments we use but it can be lack of creativity, vision or not knowing your instrument enough to work it your own way.

But then we just get the whole "im writing for the dancefloor/dj mentality and its meant to be a tool" so whatever, I don't know where I'm going with this. Musics personal and motivations differ. You get to pick and choose what you like in the end.

[gunjack]

yea man, i said that the jazz analogy was just that: an example.

the point is that techno can end up studied 30 years from now like jazz, or it can end up some retro kitsch, it is up to us.

[SlavikSvensk]

the bottom line is...people need to stop making music where they've pre-ordained the result...like "i'm gonna sit down and make me a gaetek-style percussive naples techno banger." that's a big reason why sh*t is so derivative nowadays. people only listen to and make music in a very, very narrow framework.

i say:

go out,
listen to different types of music
sit down, jam
record everything
see what comes out
f**k with it

who cares what the result is as long as it's good?

just make music. if you love techno, it will be techno.

[gunjack]

that is the first post from you i can say i agree 100 percent with!

[SlavikSvensk]

that is the first post from you i can say i agree 100 percent with!

maybe this is the first time you've truly understood where i'm coming from

;)

[xfive]

that is the first post from you i can say i agree 100 percent with!

Agreed.

Having big preconceptions when entering the studio is the first mistake. Always...

[dirty_bass]

i say:

go out,
listen to different types of music
sit down, jam
record everything
see what comes out
f**k with it

who cares what the result is as long as it's good?

just make music. if you love techno, it will be techno.

Yah totally.
I`ve long been saying that the in-bred nature of techno culture has become a little unhealthy. A washing machine having sex with itself. Diversity is the key.
And not fearing a response.
Taking risks and just making music for the sake of it, forget the marketing, that can come later.

[gunjack]

yes man, direction is one thing, but this kind of mentality comes from the fact that most techno producers are under 25 ;)

[gunjack]

i say:

go out,
listen to different types of music
sit down, jam
record everything
see what comes out
f**k with it

who cares what the result is as long as it's good?

just make music. if you love techno, it will be techno.

Yah totally.
I`ve long been saying that the in-bred nature of techno culture has become a little unhealthy. A washing machine having sex with itself. Diversity is the key.
And not fearing a response.
Taking risks and just making music for the sake of it, forget the marketing, that can come later.

man, for once i agree with you. that is what i have been saying all along. and as you said it perfectly: the marketing comes later, doesn't mean we should be lazy about our marketing. the key is to work in phases.

[SlavikSvensk]

[And not fearing a response.
Taking risks and just making music for the sake of it, forget the marketing, that can come later.

yes, yes, YES!

making music is, ultimately, about expressing yourself as best you can. how can you express yourself if you've already figured out what it's gonna sound like? or if the tracks you are making have nothing else to them but a sense that you want to rock a very, very specific dancefloor?

straight up party tracks are fine and dandy, and there are just too f***ing many of them now. it was said on another thread that techno people bitch too much about how sorry the state of techno is, and that might be true, but this is my opinion, and mine only. i don't look down on people who think differently, but i don't agree with them either. i got into this music a decade ago because of its amazing potential. a decade later, i don't see that potential fulfilled. maybe others do, but i don't.

what i want is to see more smart, emotional, and challenging tracks out there. besides, a song that stirs people's souls will always make people dance harder than one that just has a good beat...