famous produers use Reason 2.5?

[The Divide]

Yeah good one.

That explains everything

[zaalmoetlos]

Finally, try using a vitalizer - either a plug-in, or get one second-hand. They're cheap now, and (so I'm told) attempt to remove 'wasted' frequencies. Sounds strange to me, but there you go! I've only heard good things about them.

Tequila

hi tequila, are there any you can recomend (plug-in wise)

cheers

[massplanck]

Try listening to a burned-off wave compared to Reason playing live - I seem to remember things sound sweeter when burned off. Especially if you're pushing the processor when you're making the track. It could be some optimization routine...

Tequila

Spot on. Reason 'dumbs down' the sound when playing live. It compromises sound quality to give you more CPU to play around with.
I'd still like to be able to hear what it 'really' sounds like before i bounce it down but if its going to be an improvement its going to be an improvement.

PS: Have an interesting article somewhere where some Roland or Yamaha bod waffles on about how certain drum machines & synths which 'took the market by storm' only sounded good because all the patches & kits were 'pre-eqed'. The 909 springs to mind. I'll try and dig it up because he addresses the whole 'reason sounds tinny' argument and relates it to the above....

I'm off rummaging.

[The Divide]

Does anyone know of a powerfull VSTi drum machine that you can EQ each sounds in.

That would be great

[DJZeMig_L]

Hey T,



Check this out... the post I was talkin about m8.

members.shaw.ca/stu.macQ/index.htm




I am reliably informed that 'harmonic' distortion is anything that 'distorts' the audio signal by adding in extra harmonic information...


Fair enought man.. it's just me, I think the "name" 4 it could have been better... as in the distortion is not always "harmonic2 in the good sense of the word, plus not all the distortions r indeed harmonics ... they can relate at pacial (overtone) levels aswell... I guess we're just being silly U r right anyways!












I doubt individual layers in Reason display much in the way of quantization noise - according to the manual,



yep ... it should all by "all singing and dancin'" 32 bit float. point sample accurate bla bla... but not many r in absolute...




It doesn't sound like quantization noise, either... That's pretty harsh stuff.


quantization noise is always there and everywhere digital but the amounts can b grater or smaller thus more noticeable or less... and aalthough a tiny fraction percievable not overwelming (so it wouldn't b so sso harsh... still some 8 bit stuff sound really sweet... some people still swear by they're 12 bit samplers ...)...

main prob here is a slight error (not constant) in phasing at sample level (probably responsable 4 most of the very slight quant. noise) and freq. reprodution generating the probs heard...









Try listening to a burned-off wave compared to Reason playing live - I seem to remember things sound sweeter when burned off. Especially if you're pushing the processor when you're making the track. It could be some optimization routine...


yep this is generally true but the more "pro" u move the less noticeable it becomes... It is very obvious when u r pushing the limit on the processor and u get those glitches from yer soundcard.. when u render they disapear.. mainly because it is rather less proc. hungry 2 render some math than having do do the same math math live on the spot and sending it 2 the soundcard!!


Z


try using reason only 4 it's instruments (the less processes u run thru the prog. the better u'll have yer sound I reckon).. do all the mixing on another more acurate source (eq each sound 2 the fundamental freq.s.. try 2 use a good eq. plug in)...



sorry 4 the head fuc* :(

[djTequila]

PS: Have an interesting article somewhere where some Roland or Yamaha bod waffles on about how certain drum machines & synths which 'took the market by storm' only sounded good because all the patches & kits were 'pre-eqed'. The 909 springs to mind. I'll try and dig it up because he addresses the whole 'reason sounds tinny' argument and relates it to the above....

I'm off rummaging.

Heh heh! THOUGHT so... Especially when I was having so many groove problems with Reason (which I now put down to incorrect EQing) and a friend was saying that his 808 just 'did' it without any problems. There was a whole 'software vs. hardware' debate going on, and I was convinced that if I could just do what the hardware was doing, I'd be alright. Once I got my head around EQing, it kinda clicked into place.

I'd love to read that article...

T*

[djTequila]

Does anyone know of a powerfull VSTi drum machine that you can EQ each sounds in.

That would be great

Well:

In reason, take each output from ReDrum and pump it through separate EQs. (I always have every channel in ReDrum separated out and pumped into a separate mixer when I use it.)

In Cubase, take Battery, and set it up to use multiple outs. Put any pre-reverbed sounds in stereo channels and any others in mono. Then use the Cubase channel EQs, or plugins, to EQ each channel. To set channels for a cell, select the cell, hold down <ctrl> and click on the output box - bottom right of the interface. Then type in the channel number. (HOW counter-intuitive???)

In Logic, make sure you're using V 5.3 or above. Either load up a battery as above or Load up an ESX24, and set different zones to different outputs. (You can turn a stereo channel into two monos by panning hard left & right in the zone view, and using mono AUX objects to receive the data for left and right sides.) You must create a separate 'aux' type audio object for each channel output, and set the input to 'instrument x->ESX24 x <...>'. Oh, and you MUST create the instrument by selecting 'Multi Channel->ESX24' in the I/O input box on the original Audio Instrument object.

Then simply load in EQs and gates on each Aux object insert point. And the original instrument object.

Easy. Plus, you can use the best EQ for the job - like, Waves Renaisssance for serious fattening up, and Waves standard for precision shifting of individual harmonics ;)

As well as individual compressors, reverbs, distortions, blah, blah, blah.

Easy.

T*

[djTequila]

Hey T,
Check this out... the post I was talkin about m8.
members.shaw.ca/stu.macQ/index.htm

Wow! That's pretty damning - and it explains everything. The lack of the ability to create a tight groove AND the harmonic distortion...

Bleh!

Luckily I was weaning myself off Reason anyway.

quantization noise is always there and everywhere digital but the amounts can b grater or smaller thus more noticeable or less... and aalthough a tiny fraction percievable not overwelming (so it wouldn't b so sso harsh... still some 8 bit stuff sound really sweet... some people still swear by they're 12 bit samplers ...)...

main prob here is a slight error (not constant) in phasing at sample level (probably responsable 4 most of the very slight quant. noise) and freq. reprodution generating the probs heard...

Quantization noise won't be a problem unless the bit depth falls below 16 bits at any point, really. The phasing issues you're talking about (looking at the article) cause the interpolation of incorrectly placed samples to distort the waveform and create new frequencies - hence harmonic distortion. The incorrectly rendered square wave had a slight dip at one end... This would create extra high-frequency and mid-range information in the output. As these inaccurate renderings were stacked, the harmonic distortion would build up... Creating the clarity problems you hear with most 'pure reason' tracks.

Which neatly matches up with my own theories. I was wondering how that distortion got there... What a pain in the arse! I like the way Reason fits together...

Cheers for pointing me there Z! :)

try using reason only 4 it's instruments (the less processes u run thru the prog. the better u'll have yer sound I reckon).. do all the mixing on another more acurate source (eq each sound 2 the fundamental freq.s.. try 2 use a good eq. plug in)...

Yeah, sounds good to me.

*sigh*

T*

[djTequila]

Finally, try using a vitalizer - either a plug-in, or get one second-hand. They're cheap now, and (so I'm told) attempt to remove 'wasted' frequencies. Sounds strange to me, but there you go! I've only heard good things about them.

Tequila

hi tequila, are there any you can recomend (plug-in wise)

cheers

Sorry, can't seem to find a plug-in anywhere - which is odd. However, I'm about to get my hands on a hradware unit (SPL Vitalizer) which are going for under a ton second hand these days. So get in touch later and I'll let you know if it's worth the $$$.

T*

[djTequila]

Well, what I was told about vitalizers was a load of sh*t. The SPL unit adds stereo expansion (by a portion of negative phase signal from the left channel to the right, and vice versa), bass shaping (from warm/soft to tight/hard), dynamic EQing (balancing out the bass & mid/high frequencies with each change to a psychoacoustic model) and high-end excitement (adding in new high end information musically related to the source material).

Still could be of help to Reason tracks... But maybe not.

Burn all separate instruments to WAV. Load them into something like Acid, which allows you to stack up long WAV files and edit them. Mix them there.

Preferably use EQ and effects within this host program.

:)

T*

[djTequila]

I got a reply from the Reason suport team relating to this issue, and the web article.

Apparently 'harmonic distortion does not occur in the digital domain'. So there. :P They also stated that 'I don't think our developers put these kind of sound harming algorithms in the 2.5 upgrade.'

Hmm. Anyone else see the problems with these 'answers'?

The 'test' they propose to clear up the issue involves loading your favourite music into NN-XT and a samapler in Logic/Cubase, and playing them back to hear if there's any difference.

No help for issues relating to timing and heavily layered samples then!

They also asked if the Reason demo files sounded at all 'dull.' What's everyone's opinion on this?

I will keep you all informed of any further gems from the Reason team.

T*

[zaalmoetlos]

Burn all separate instruments to WAV. Load them into something like Acid, which allows you to stack up long WAV files and edit them. Mix them there.

Preferably use EQ and effects within this host program.

thanks alot for all the help it, was killing us we'll soon quit with this programme but we have a couple of tracks to finnish up

cheers

[Antinoise]

Long story short is .... Reason is great.. The sound just lacks audio headroom. Its a problem of the entire digital world which is summed up by this program nicely.

Analogue or bust!!!

-G

[JACKSTAR]

DJ Nehpets use it for his Ghetto stuff and it seems to work well. Personally I prefer hardware.

P.

[Patrick DSP]

i did my Maximum Minimum Sludge all in reason...
i did it more as a joke while on the phone...

see what happens with happy accidents?!

[anx]

the title is "famos producers" who use reason.

haha jk pat

[Patrick DSP]

yes yes, i know i'm not famous...
i didn't mean to pass myself off as one. sorry if i gave that impression.

didn't mean too.

i just wanted to point out that you can get some pretty good results from reason, you just need to realize that you can't master too well inside reason.

[anx]

i knew exactly what you meant man i was just giving you a hard time!

d to the s to the p