music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

[Francisco Scaramanga]

get over it and go do something else if its a struggle, i'd do anything to earn money if i needed it. and i dont moan about it.

well, sometimes you have to struggle to get where you want, I'm just trying to point out that just because a DJ is getting paid 500 quid on a weekend doesn't mean they are getting that every weekend, and that being a DJ/Performer/Producer isn't necessarily a busmans holiday contrary to what a lot of people might think....

Its obviously going to be hard work, I dont think anyone doubts that. Alot of people put in all that hard work though, just as a hobby, and have a job too. If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things. Alot of people have given the solution though, basically the times they are a changin and its time to adapt to the digital age. If people cant be bothered with the change, then get a haircut and get a real job.

I really want to know, who on here can honestly say they've never downloaded something illegally? I'm not talking techno, I'm talking music of any kind, tv shows, movies, cracked software, and of course porn.

All that other stuff is still just the same as music, it might not affect us cause we arent in the film business, but the fact that you can download whole films, or buy pirate dvds at the market or whatever, that is damaging the DVD business way more than soulseek is damaging techno. And its not just hollywood execs that are getting done by that, the whole industry is affected by the dramatic loss of sales, so it affects people all the way down to the person who sells you a DVD in whatever shop you are in or the guy who drives the van that delivers DVDs to the store. Of course the DVD business has responded by bigging up the idea of renting them over the internet, and having them delivered by post. So people in techno need to do the same, find a way to make the internet work as a way to distribute music - at a profit.

I do use filesharing, but I dont consider myself a theif in the slightest. I barely download any techno at all, except for the odd mix that is of interest. I do download all sorts of other music though, just to check things out, see what someone is like. I particlarly like my classic rock and download a lot of that. But most of it gets deleted after like one or two plays, and the stuff that I like enough to let it clog my drive, I go out and buy the album, cause I like to have the real thing. Its just like when I was a kid and taped my favourite radio shows. When I got bored of a particular one I would just tape over it with a new one, but there would ususally be a few tracks that would stand out and then I would save my lunch money to go and buy the single or whatever.

[Lag]

did any of you ever download a dj set? do you realise it is as illegal as downloading tracks? how about warez?
did any of you ever let their mixes go online for other people to download them, without paying royalties to producers in your mix? do you realise how illegal is that?

yes downloading sets is illegal, but i honestly feel it helps the scene alot.
its good promotion for the dj/artist, plus it helps to sell records, how many mixes have we all listened to and thought, ooh, whats that tune ?
then we go out and buy it

acutally what happenes is people hear good stuff, then dl it off of internet and then get bored by the song (possibly a big hit)
and when u play it u get opposite reactions of those expected

ofcourse we cant generalise like that but the point is there are more aspect of that matter.....


@topic i dl shit off the internet the whole time but whatever i like and think of playing it i try and get it on vinyl
i know dling it makes me a bad person but what can i do about it... i enjoy a good tune more then sex :eyes:

[Stodgy]

It must really suck to find your stuff getting shared out on the net before its even released. I would definately be pissed off too. But I think people go a bit overboard with it all. As has already been said, nothing can be done about it.

I really have to echo what oldbugger is on about as well. I really really dont mean any disrespect here at all - but - there are a lot of us in this scene who dont make a living from techno. I work all week in a job that I hate, but I still find time to make tunes and promote nights as well. I never expect anything back from any of that really, thats what the day job is for, all the music stuff I do is cause thats what I enjoy doing with my spare time, and thats how I choose to spend my hard earned cash.

I have many times payed a DJ more for an hour and a half of playing records than I earn in an entire MONTH. So when I hear people moaning about illegal downloads, I feel sorry to a point, but then I think, well at least you arent slaving in a shop serving the cunting public all day for barely over minimum wage.

Seriously - those of you who make a living from this thing we call techno, even if you make what you consider to be a shit living from it, I bet you make a whole shitload more than I do, whether your tunes are getting downloaded illegally or not. Doesent make illegal downloading ok, but how could anyone seriously think that filesharing could destroy underground music?

I would like to echo everything that has been said here, and also add that life is based on choices and most of us on here are lucky enough to live in a country that allows us to choose how we earn a living. So if someone is seriously unhappy with aspects of their career they should really try and find a way of earning that makes them happy.
Alternatively they can accept the drawbacks, bite their lip and get on with it like everyone else!!

[webassassin]

and in regard to mix tapes/Cds, I would say this market has been affected 10 times more by Mp3 downloads, and the reason you don't see so many mix or Live cds, or CD album releases is because it's not so viable in the current climate when it's going to end up on soulseek straight away anyway.. This is why only really big artists are releasing Mix comps, as they're going to have to sell a fair few to cover the licencing costs to all the labels that have trax on the mix.. Still feel ok about downloading sets off SS?

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

Vinyl sales have decreased for a number of reasons in my opinion, Mp3 downloads have had an effect for sure, but there are other considerations that have to be made, there are many more people having a crack at producing and running the labels, and techno is no-where near as popular as it was 10 years ago, and this is a reality that has to be faced, no matter how much faith you have in the scene.. And legal action is not an option, there is simply not enough money in this scene to make it viable, Lawyers and going to court costs money, probably a damnsite more money that you are going to be awarded if you did win a case....

Yeah, way more people are producing therefore they're busy buying gear and computers, which effects their budget for buying records, and going out to events, etc. Its actually frivolous to think of involving the law in this case.

And in regard to the old chestnut "Djs earn in a night more than I earn all week", this is very easily said when you're sat in front of your computer bored at work, but stop to think for a minute for all the other weekends a DJ/Live act might not have a gig.. that might be their only gig of the month... which means that might just about only cover their rent for that month.. Because I'll tell you now from personal experience, there are very, very few artists that are booked every night, every weekend, and the ones that are probably don't even stop to think about Mp3 downloads as they are most probably earning enough for it not to bother them too much..This is what makes the difference between selling 1000 records and selling 1200, those 200 records could well be the profit that you are going to miss out on...

Excellent point, I know one artist who you'd think would be getting gigs because he's seems to be pretty hot right now but even he's told me that he may have to get a part time job to pay the bills. (Chalk it up to promoters acting funny with the bookings, making empty promises and p & d's going bad or none at all.) And really, why should he? He put his whole body into make this his career, do or die but reality is a b*tch. Same with another artist whom I've literally seen the number of gigs dwindled to zilch this past 7 years and now has to work full time after being able to support himself through this for almost 15 years; just basically having to start all over. Yeah I know, who wants to hear a sob story, "Boo-hoo" but its f'ed up nonetheless.

And anyone out there who thinks it's their idea of a "Dream job" really has no idea what it entails to live this thing 24/7, and whilst for myself, I would never moan about it, (and count my blessings I don't work a shitty factory job) I would love to see them live their life as a touring Producer/DJ and then come back to me and say the same thing, being away from friends and family, having times when you don't know how you will pay your rent next month, having to travel long distances whilst REALLY tired, not being able to do what YOU want on a weekend, can really be a drag sometimes, and it's only pure love for the music and being lucky enough to do what you do that gets you through it, it ain't all living it up, private jets, fast cars and fast women, I can tell you that now.....

Amen. OR have your luggage temporarily lost, or crazy sh*t happening to the promoter and you don't get paid...there's horror stories. You might be in some exotic locale but the gig may not turn out right. But when its good its quite rewarding when you work hard, like any other job.

Anyway, Henry, sorry to hear someone pushed this under your nose so much, I had a similar experience once in Leipzig when someone showed me a white label they had pressed themselves of a very rare record of mine, although I was kind of impressed at the dedication that had driven someone to do that, and the original was nigh on impossible to get hold of....

Wow. And plus you didn't have to pay for the pressing of it. It may help keep your name out there. Should've hit them up for pressing your new stuff. JK. ;)

[crime]

If you can get by without a job thats well cool. But if ever things slip and you are a bit short on cash, then I dont see how bitching about filesharing is going to help things.

Well, quite, you either have to cut your overheads, or find other sources of income, and yes, bitching about file-sharing doesn't change anything, you know, it doesn't matter how many threads on however many forums there are, it's not going to stop, and that is just a fact of life. I can however understand Henry's initial exclamation here though to an extent, it's like pissing on your chips then making you eat them..
I personally cut my overheads by moving to a place where the cost of living was cheaper and most of my gigs were, and basically tried to get as much work performing as possible, but there is only so long you can go on doing it, as it starts to kill you in the end, and this is why you find a lot of acts who don't drink, play their gig and go straight back to the hotel, as it really takes it's toll doing 2 gigs every weekend of a month.. I'm thinking now about what other angles I could go for work wise in the end as I don't want to gig forever, and doing it all the time means that is some ways you can lose the love you had for the whole thing, and in many ways, I look forward to the day when I have a job that I enjoy as much as I have this over the years, and get a lot more love and appreciation back from doing musically related activities, that's one thing that sucks, when your job becomes your hobby, what do you do for a hobby?
I might like to add also that you have to bear in mind before a lot of people started gigging, getting releases etc., this was after doing 5 or 10 years slogging it out whilst doing a shit job, but the points here about having to supplement your income are very true, it's not like 10 years ago where you were selling 3000 + units, and getting four figure sums for gigs. You either have to be gigging one hell of a lot or really on top of the game, or do something else.. I mean I know a lot of people who do sound design (Like Jingles for TV & Radio) or rent out their studios, or have some other kind of job either music or non music related, it's tough out there..

sorry if this rambled on a bit, but just clearing out a few thoughts that have been going round in my head for a while.. ;)

[crime]

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

[crime]

BTW: if I looked like I contradicted myself there before regarding DJ mixes being downloaded, I didn't mean to, after some thought here, my point is basically: I don't think it's really any better or worse to be downloading mixes as appose to tracks as illegal MP3s but this is the way the world has changed, and as far as the law stands it's still illegal reproduction, but it's that whole Promotion vs loss of sales thing, which I really don't have the answers to and wouldn't claim to...
I will say living for over a year in Berlin has made me more easy come easy go, and ass a result a lot less heated and opinionated especially in regard to mp3s and the morals of it, whether it is doing me out of pocket, as I can have a meal in a restaraunt here for less than a fiver :cheese: so that given it certainly makes you more chilled out where money is concerned...

[crime]

I've worked it out!!! It's thie internet, that's the problem, everyone turn off your computers now, it's making everything suck, turn it off and cancell your internet subscription, it's turning the creative world into a pile of "Grey Goo" :cheese::cheese:

[koma]

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

[oldbugger]

if we are going so in-depth about what more or less legal.....

how many promoters and dj's are not paying taxes for the money they earn? club owners are giving away money when they do parties, how do they justify those expenses in the books?
afaik, there is only cash money going around.
so, if the scene wants protection from the state, that same state could ask: what do I have from it?
hm, maybe these questions are sorted in UK, sorry, I dont know, but here... not even slightly...

spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

[crime]

spot on mate.. of course a lot of any dj's work even in the uk is cash.

i reckon they are just a moaning bunch of pussies myself who havent got a good days work in them :lol:

Damn, we've been finally found out :blush:

[webassassin]

What about sets that are not previously available on CD and its just a promoter/punter who recorded it from a event? I've only downloaded sets for which there is no retail copy of and they're found mostly from this website.

well, this is just a result of the marketplace changing, before peer2peer it wasn't so easy to get hold of sets, you know, you had to know the promotor af a club or whatever, but I feel it's a bit of a shame that as a DJ or Live act it's much harder to sell something like that than it was, but there is nothing I can do to change it. I mean, there's the point that with CD duplication in small runs being relatively cheap it's still posssible to sell something like that if you have a nice package there with a nice printed cover, maybe some AVI video extras , but only on stuff you own the copyright on yourself i.e. a dj mix of your own productions, or a liveact, unless you have the backing of a bigger label with enough money and promo power to sell it in large quantities. this is why you see mix after mix by people like Väth or Leibing as proper cd releases and nothing like that by say Jerome Hill....

I hear ya. I think more djs/live pa's should do that. In fact, my big thing is radio shows on mp3 which I think people should pay close attention to. They play snippets of stuff and tell you what it is, all edited into one fun, but professional show and it gets you in the mood for heading to the store. Now, I'm not recommending that everyone and their grandmother should do a radio show. Moderation, can go a long way, folks. But the radio shows that are already around now, like Split and the Black Audio ones are very important. They filter out alot of bad stuff and I think electronic music needs that big time.

Cheers.

[dirty_bass]

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy

[fresh_an_funky_design]

You pay for your food.
You pay to go to the cinema, to get into clubs, for your beer, for your clothes etc
simple
pay for the music you listen to and enjoy

couldn't agree with you more


support undergound artists!

[massplanck]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

[fresh_an_funky_design]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

:coffee:

[Mindful]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

Hahahahahahahaha

[eyeswithoutaface]

[


support undergound artists!

Thats what the dole is for.

hahaha classic :lol:

[djshiva]

me personally, i refuse to sit back and start talking about the legality of downloading, because we have all seen what happens when people like the RIAA get involved. they start prosecuting kids and taking money from the little people (which we all are compared to that kind of power). i can see the problems involved for working artists, and i have seen my own sets and tracks on sites like slsk, but to say that i would like to see people run through the legal system because of it? well, you are never gonna see me say that.

downloading will continue (at least until the huge telecom companies start making us pay for EVERYTHING we access on the net), and we either evolve or die. i would rather get creative and find new ways of marketing my music and my djing, than say that i want to see the authorities busting down doors and taking harddrives.

i mean really. i DO see the validity of dave and others' frustrations, but the alternatives are even more disgusting to me.

[djshiva]

oh. and you will never get the slightest sympathy from me about the "trials and tribulations" of being a travelling, gigging musician. sure there are parts of it that suck: missing flights, missing luggage, sleep deprivation, hotel issues, being away from loved ones, sore back from running through the airport with your record bag, missing your cat, etc. been through it myself. but if it's not fun anymore...don't do it. there are a gerbajillion people on this planet that would give their right arm to be in the position to take the bad with the good without a gripe. it's not a factory job, for pete's sake. so don't expect much sympathy on that one. it just does not fly.

****, if you gave that sob story to some of the cats i know in touring bands, they would laugh their asses off. most people in bands tour in shitty vans, all stuck in the van for hours at a time IF the van doesn't break down, only to play the gig and either end up ripped off, or with just enough to buy lunch for each band member (in fact, if my old band made enough to put gas in our vehicles, we were pretty happy). when a friend in a touring band asked me a few years ago how much i made for dj gigs (which at the time was a lot more than i get now), i was actually EMBARRASSED to tell him, cuz i knew that most of the time his WHOLE BAND made less than that for a gig.

and if anyone here got into techno with the aims of making a living off it...i have news for you: you were misled. the odds of being able to do that are small and the market fluctuates. that's the way things work, and if you are not prepared for that reality, then you should do something else. i have a job i love with a non-profit, and while it would be lovely to make a living off music, i am not gonna slit my wrists if it never happens. the majority of people making music will never make a living off it, never be well known and are mostly just happy that they have something they love to keep em busy.

it all comes down to priorities and an understanding of reality, i guess. not trying to be an ass with this post, but it needs to be said.