music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

[module]

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

Look....

A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.

Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.

Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.

The two cases are incomparable

Stop being an arse.

i dont think they are. hes talking about stolen music.

look, for the hell of it, lets jus agree to disagree, cos i aint backing down.

[Francisco Scaramanga]

Its not an attempt to justify theft at all, not from me anyway. From the outset I said it must suck, and I said that I would be pissed off too. I also said no disrespect intended, and I meant that.

But I also meant it when I said (more or less) get over it. We've all heard about this crap so many times now.

One thing I've noticed though, is that this thread runs in cycles (just with new names), but every time the subject of tinternet and downloading comes up, I'm noticing more and more positive ideas and stories relating to the use of the internet for furthering rather than hindering people in our scene. There are always new sites mentioned that are selling mp3s, or new ideas about how to stay in the game. Crime has come out with alot of interesting information this time around if you ask me. Thing is, alot of it would be common sense to business types - cut overhead and costs, stay close to the source of business, concentrate on the main breadwinner. Still, it helps to hear these things sometimes, especially as musicians very very notoriously are bad at business and usually die penniless - even the very very famous ones - am I the only person here who realises this? Anyway, its always amusing, and I think eventually, through mashing it out like this, we will sort it all out one day (but what will come along and destroy music then?).

And as for people paying for other forms of entertainment - do they really, all the time? You sure people dont just sometimes go to the library and check a book out - for free! Are you telling me you've never watched a pirate DVD? What about borrowing a CD/DVD/video game off a friend, you're listening/watching/playing but not paying! And everyone must have copied a tape or a CD at some point. And what about buying records second hand - the artist isn't getting any money from that, so thats well harsh isent it?

I'm not saying people should just borrow and copy all the time. I definately do not, I'll say it again, I AM NOT A THEIF. Come round to my house and check out my hundreds of CDs and DVDs and books and even a fair few records despite the fact I dont play records. If I bought every single tune I ever listened to, book I've read, film I've watched, and game I've played, I would have to be living in the millenium dome, just so I could store it all. I'm sure its the same for everyone else. I buy as much as I can, and anything that I borrow or check out from the library or hear on the radio - or download - and really like, I buy it, once again, Im sure just the same as most people on here.

[The Divide]

I’m hoping the internet is going to start reshaping techno so it not only sounds good out in a club, but is worth listening to at home.

Instead of panicking about record sales going bust why don’t we all just focus on the inevitable, that music is going to be distributed via the web either MP3 or CD. I think that people who believe their tunes aint selling because of file sharing are living in denial of the consumer & social changes facing music and media in general. Way I see it is like this, those who used to buy vinyl have moved on, have responsibilities in their lives and can’t afford to spend £50+ a week on vinyl. Like it or not, it seems that techno isn’t capturing the imagination of younger people so a decline is going to happen until it starts to change. To do that it needs to start thinking outside the box. If it doesn’t, the party scene will end up where it’s already going, zimmer frame central.

Embrace it or die imo

I could be wrong

[massplanck]

zimmer frame central.

:lol: :lol:

[djshiva]

And you are right, if you are not enjoying it, you should get out, but that is not to say, even when you are enjoying it, you have a few shitty gigs and stressfull travelling experiences it can really put you offf for a while no matter how much your heart is into it.... I generally find though as much as I can bitch when I'm touring a lot, take a month off, and your raring to get back on the road... Off to Poland next week for 2 shows after a month off, so I'm raring to go right now ;)

a funny story: a few years ago after a particularly stressful trip to a particularly disorganized event, i was about ready to throw it all in, at least insofar as really promoting myself as a dj and blah blah blah.

on the way home, once i got back into my city, i decided to stop at the video store to get a movie to relax with when i got home. my friend ran the video store, and i walked in to find two drum machines sitting on the chair near the counter (roland tr-505 and 727). i asked him what was up and he said a friend had brought them over cuz he found them in his closet. when the guy came back, i was so into them that he gave them to me. just gave em to me. those were my first drum machines, and i decided the techno gods were giving me a signal that i needed to stick around.

so i did. ;)

[dirty_bass]

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

Look....

A lot of the time you don't even need clearance. Go bump up on copyright law. Snippits and clips are invariably exempt.

Can't be arsed to find the section - go do your own research if you are so keen to sling mud.

Henry is quite rightly pissed off that people are stealing his music before he has even had the chance to sell it.

The two cases are incomparable

Stop being an arse.

i dont think they are. hes talking about stolen music.

look, for the hell of it, lets jus agree to disagree, cos i aint backing down.

Call that means I can release the Voidloss Remix/Rework of Pete Donadlsons WAR on the next Singularity Release, and I don`t have to pay him a penny, sweeeeeeet.

[crime]

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

You tend to find that the people that own the copyright to these things arn't really bothered unless you're selling at least 5000 if not 10000 copies, I know of people who have got away with much worse...

This is the way that it works, it was never the case that we made loads of money BECAUSE the producer used samples from an old TV show, in fact it was the worst selling release on the label and we never re-couped the production costs, so obviously even if whoever owned the rights to the Streethawk had heard it, they wouldn't bother to sue as there would be no money there to take anyhow...

I'm in agreement that sample clearance is a different issue, even when a techno artist has ripped something totally, it's very very rare that they would make a pile of cash out of it...

@ Shiva: That's a cool tale, sometimes signs are sent in the strangest ways, I had one last friday when my homie Bill Youngman totally rocked the Raumklang here in Berlin at his Tresor record release party, you guys here should really pay attention to what he's doing, rocked my world & I was totally straight :)

[dirty_bass]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

[crime]

Thing is, alot of it would be common sense to business types - cut overhead and costs, stay close to the source of business, concentrate on the main breadwinner. Still, it helps to hear these things sometimes, especially as musicians very very notoriously are bad at business and usually die penniless - even the very very famous ones - am I the only person here who realises this?

I realised a while back that it's something you can't stop, plus you got to be shrewd and realistic at the same time - in reality the people who are really into it will buy the records, it's always better to have a record than an mp3.. I think illegal mp3 downloads probably have more of an affect on Album sales rather than 12"s, so hasn't really affected me.. ok, it's theft, but what you going to do?
but yeah, I think we are going round in circles here, some people making music who are feeling the pinch are shouting "Theft", some people who DL music for free are pulling up issues about sample clearance...

Conclusion: it ain't going to go away, so you have to work around it....

[crime]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

Exactly, bang on....

[TechMouse]

I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producers

You might think that, but profit margins on small companies aren't that big. And lets face it, most companies that make music software are quite small. i.e. I'd guess 20 people or less.

Note that the only reason Emagic and Steinberg have survived is they have been bought out by Apple and Yamaha respectively.

Part of the reason for this is the high prices, which are a direct result of pirate software. If everyone bought it, the prices would come down.

[TechMouse]

Sample clearance bascially only becomes a problem when the owner of the sample (inevitably a record company) thinks they can get some money or earn some money off of the user of the sample.
For the most part techno gets away with it, because the record companies know that they won`t get anything, either by suing or by relicensing the track with the sample in.

Likewise, filesharing is only a problem when the owner of the tunes, yadda yadda yadda...

I see what you're saying DB, but the telling phrase that both you and Crime used here is "gets away with it"... you realise yourselves that it's wrong but you're saying since you can "get away with it" without being sued, then it's ok?

Well, here's a newsflash - millions of people are "getting away with" downloading mp3s illegally day in day out. Is that ok?

At the end of the day it's violation of copyright in both cases.

Just out of interest... do any of you producers expect non-DJs to splash out £7 on a vinyl because they like a certain tune?

[dirty_bass]

Well, it`s not that simple.
As the use of samples when recontextualied into a different tune is fine.
However the US legal system pushed changes to essentially get more money for the labels who were very powerful.
I have a mate who has just completed a PHD thesis all about this, called The Greater Wrong of the right.
And it`s all about the morality and grey areas of sample clearance, so to be honest I think the example you site is debatable, as recontextualisation and creativity is being used. Unless it`s a blatant rip.

It`s not really the same argument.

[The Overfiend]

Excellent Point Steve
Shahoul do the paper?

[TechMouse]

@DB: Oh don't get me wrong - I'm all for letting people sample whatever, it's all creative and (IMHO) it's obvious when someone's just ripping entire sections of someone else's work. I'm just pointing out that you yourself used the phrase "gets away with it", which implies you realise that it's not strictly speaking "right", to the letter of the law.

[ANDROID]

And its happening not the first time, all my releases were played and were on internet before they hit the stores.

HOW???

[crime]

I see what you're saying DB, but the telling phrase that both you and Crime used here is "gets away with it"... you realise yourselves that it's wrong but you're saying since you can "get away with it" without being sued, then it's ok?

Well, here's a newsflash - millions of people are "getting away with" downloading mp3s illegally day in day out. Is that ok?

At the end of the day it's violation of copyright in both cases.

This is 2 different issues.. it's a completely different thing to use literally under a second of uncleared samples compared to having a harddrive full of unlicenced music... it's going to hurt a musician a lot more if you download an artist's complete back catalogue, compared to if you sample under a second of their work which you then use creatively...

Anyhow I reiterate, I'm really past caring about unlicenced mp3 downloads of my own work, it's going to happen, there's nothing I can do to stop it, welcome to the 21st century...

I'm not going to take the moral high ground and go around saying people are bang out of order for doing it, but on the other hand I accept that it is theft..

at the end of the day I find it very hard to believe anyone who is online these days is completely innocent, everyone must have downloaded an mp3 at some point... in the same way that everyone had copied tapes back in the day... Still innocent?

I'm sure everyone is guilty to a certain extent when you stop to think, and it does make me think, ok so those people moaning that they found all their music on soulseek, did you ever have an album on tape? that you taped off your mate? well, that's pretty much the same thing.. not wanting to rattle cages here, but just making the point that you can't have it both ways, you can't download an album or copy a cd off a mate on the one hand, then cry foul when you find all your own stuff on SS...

Again,
I think we're splitting hairs here and going round in circles.. there is nothing you can do to stop it... get over it... ;)

[mattboyslim]

had an argument on nuskoolbreaks with someone yday regarding this. this was coming from someone starting his own label, and he's saying he wouldn't mind people selling his tunes on, and keeping a copy for themselves! he also said he was thinking of going digital and ripping his entire collection and then selling it on.

like you say, the end of underground music. people don't seem to be able to look more than a week ahead these days

[Jay Pace]

I think new producers are going to have a very different attitude.

Its not the end of uderground music, its just the end of the way things were done.
Artists who have been selling vinyl through exclusive channels which had a monopoly on distribution are finding the change to digital distribution hard.
Some artists like crime are emracing it - after all, its here. Deal with it.

But the new-breed of producers who are just coming into there own now will have grown up with filesharing and regard it as natural. They will have different expectations from their music being released.

A lof of this is just the old way of doing things clashing with the new way of doing things. For the people just starting out - the new way is the only way that they've experienced.

I wish people would stop insisting that filesharing is sounding the bloody death knell for techno and underground music.
Its not going to happen.
So long as people love the music, love going out to it and people still love making it the scene will continue.

[crime]

Some artists like crime are emracing it - after all, its here. Deal with it.

I wouldn't say I was embacing it as such, just more accepting that this is the reality of the industry these days... as I said before, if you can do a cracking live act, this is something that can never be stolen, as you had to be there to experience it...

I think a lot of people have blamed the download thing for a fall in vinyl sales when the fact is it's just changing times, there is a lot more choice in media these days, I mean in general, you think of what kids spend their money on now, DVDs, Computer games etc. The whole thing, not just music, has diversified so much that other things are attracting peoples money giving them less disposable income for music.. And there's not as much interest in techno music as there was 10 years ago when it was a really new fresh thing..

Techno is getting on for being 20 years old, and whilst I think it will always maintain a certain amount of popularity, it isn't going to have the buzz of the original early nineties explosion when we all thought it was going to take over the world and change everything... It has had a big influence on pop music production, and music on TV, Computergames etc, but the point is, it's very easy to scapegoat illegal downloads as the problem, when the problem actually is we have more choice than ever, and the demographic is no bigger. Obviously everone is going to feel the pinch when the market becomes bigger and bigger but there is in general only the same amount of disposable income, it's going to end up spread more thinly... And when illegal downloads are so easily available, people are less likely to spend their money on music, so that they can buy that new X-Box game..

It's just the way it's gone now, and why I think Live performance as an artist is even more important than ever... this is something you can never fully capture down the DL pipe..