music is not ( supposed to be) free!!!!

[Si the Sigh]

Loads of the really big hardcore labels have got this printed on the labels. ^

[303808909]

Ok, so this may not be a direct OPINION to Henry's original topic and maybe more suited in a new thread but it has to be mentioned. UNFORTUNATELY this is just the tip of the iceberg. And deep down everyone on this debate, regardless of opinion, knows it, like it or not. Whether you benefit or loose out from filesharing and digital downloads, the fact of the matter is that its not going to go away. In fact its gonna get a whole lot more complicated. For starters, as technology improves, mp3's will be replaced with better quality and smaller files. In "X" amount of years the GENERAL populations need for "physical" formats will be obselete. We all love our music on here but you have to remember we are a tiny percentage of the global consumer market. Your AVERAGE person who pops into HMV to buy a CD once a month will not give a shit whether their music now comes in an invisible format. In fact, they'd probably want to rush out and buy the latest 10th Generation iPod to play it on and impress their mates and lo and behold, another convertee. Well, we dont need to look to the future to see this going on. How many pairs of white headphones do you see on the tube or trains and busses compared to just 1 year ago? Legal music or not playing through those headphones, its an invisible, digital format! Where will this leave the Underground artists, label owners, record companies and distributers? As Im writing this it makes me very anxious indeed. I don't like it, but what can WE do to adapt to it?

A French minister is under the spotlight at the moment for his comments on wanting to legalize flie sharing. http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=172512

IF this becomes legal, all the Soulseek, Limewire etc... servers will re-locate to France and trade legally! It probably won't happen but the fact that there is a proposal is scary enough. In the statement it mentions a flat, monthly subscription fee. Yes, a percentage of the cash will go to the artists (I hope) but you can guarantee it will be distributed amongst the Robbies and Kylies of the music scene and very little will get filtered down to the small fish. Even with a publisher/manager to collect this cash on your behalf, it will generate peanuts.
As things stand, SELLING mp3's online isn't proving very profitable for underground artists or labels (yet? - who knows!) Actually, nor is selling vinyl! (We are going round in a loop!) And its a bitter pill to swallow Im sure because its something that needs to be done to keep up with the market place more than something that is done through love. In fact, creating and maintaining digital catalogues takes up manpower and time. This dosen't come free.
And finally, Online digital sales opens up other questions for underground dance music. Would the mp3's be selling online if the original vinyl labels didn't exist? How quickly will we see the rise of "internet-only" artists? If the demand for digital sales makes it so that it would be a financial disaster to produce/sell vinyl anymore, what format will DJs choose to be the INDUSTRY STANDARD and could the artists survive on digital royalties? Could this create backlash to the club industry with all the djs trying to survive by means of a DJ pay packet, fighting for gigs, essentially diluting clubland more than it is already?
As I said at the top of this post, maybe this needs to be a new thread or 3.

[crime]

Not sure if it really needs a new thread seeing as it's been discussed to death over and over again...
and personally I can't see real formats totally dying out because it's nice coming back from a record schop with a cd with a cool little book inside, or a record.. I for one will still buy records and cds if I like something enough as I'm sure other people will...

Why another thread or 3? Seems like just another excuse to repeat yourself over and over again with ill informed drivel til it's home time.. (This is not directed at anyone personally)

[davethedrummer]

i dont see why you let it get to you. did you ever tape stuff as kids? of course you did.
home taping was supposed to kill music, luckily it never did neither will a few illegal downloads.

if i was making a living from music i'd be happy with that i was doing what i loved be thankful i was leaving an impression on the kids that were stealing my music. thats all it will be...kids. they wouldnt of bought your record anyway so i very much doubt they are taking anything away from you at all.

i'd be happy that people wanted to steal my music actually. imagine if nobody gave a shit what you were doing at the moment. then you really would be pissed off. just a thought ;) (i may happen soon)


or you could always go and get a real job like me and work for a living :razz: :lol:


the above post is not to be taken too seriously ;)

mate
i'm 36 , when i was a kid all you had was a record player
a radio and a tape deck.
casettes sounded hissy ( and shitty ) and flat in comparison to your records
and the ultimte choice was to go buy the record if you wanted crystal sound.
then along came cds.....

cds sounded wonderful and you could still tape them
but you couldn't record them onto anything other than a casette tape
and the difference of quality became more apparent than ever before.

then dats came around , but they were expensive and soon became the professionals choice but were dropped from most major hi fi's manufacturers ranges shortly after their arrival onto the market place.. cos no one wanted them and mosst people had just replaced their entire record collection with cds.

then the internet appeared , people began to get faster computers and cd roms came alone , then the cd burner and finally the software for ripping and reburning audio to get round the scms
( serial copy management system ) encoded onto commercial cds.

what we have now
is FAR more sophisticated than just taping your favourite album so you can listen to it on your walkman.

you can make digital copies , exact replicas of audio art , sell them , give them to your mates , do whatever the f@ck you want with them.

it is not the same era as the phrase " home taping is killing music "
you know why home taping didn't kill music?


'cos it was crap that's why


take it seriously , 'cos it's in your backyard too.

[crime]

it is not the same era as the phrase " home taping is killing music "
you know why home taping didn't kill music?


'cos it was crap that's why


take it seriously , 'cos it's in your backyard too.

thing is though, there's nothing that can really be done about it... I know it's annoying, it's annoying that techno doesn't sell as much as it used to, but the pandoras box has been opened now and there is no going back... I mean look at what happened to Metallica when they started berating Napster.. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people lost respect for them, I'm not saying it's right that musicians feel they are being ripped off, but this is a sad fact of our times, sad in the same way that you don't have 5+ regular techno nights in London any more, in the same way that you have to wade through so much shite in the record store to find something good, and sad in the way that things are much tougher than they used to be..
you just have to work around it and try your best to keep your chin up....

[davethedrummer]

Not everyone wants to work a sucky job, to be good at music, you need to have the time to commit to it.

I`m ok, I`m lucky to have found a job that allows me the hours I want, for good money, but it took ages to get something like that.

All these arguments are moot. The point is, it`s all just an attempt to justify theft. If you pay for ohter forms of entertainment, why should music not be paid for too.

bals db. henry is pissed at him having his music stile, yet how many ilegally used samples has he made money off during the years ? did he clear & pay rotalties for all of them ? i think not

and hes far from the only one.. not by a long shot. especially round here...

Crime, did you clear the Streethawk samples ?

i have to hold my hands up here
i don't clint eastwood would 've guested on our record if we'd asked him though.

[module]

i cant help think if everyone had of seen this coming they would have banded together & done something.

where as it happens to ppl one by one & they get pissed off as & when it happens to them.



point in case. i know a guy d'loaded Closer by Hawtin a month before it came out. he jus laughed & pretty much said '**** richie' but now its happened to one of his IDM heros he's gona ll anti-d'load. now, the same guy also cut part of a BMB live set to bits & played trax at a payed gig. when i pulled him about that, he jus laughed & said '**** regis & surgeon' but was still miffed about whatever IDM artist it was..

it seems ppl only having a passing interest UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.

which i understand, but c'mon.. this has been on the cards for sooo long.

ya either got to cut your promo list to only those you REALLY trust or jus accept its gonna happen. as handy as MP3 are, and as wide as Ableton & Traktor & cdj's are used, i dont think its gonna kill the sales of an established artist like Drummer.

[The Overfiend]

Even though Mr. Established is saying here it is?

[tocsin]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who embraced technology to make their sound are so frightened by where technology is moving. Sad indeed. Let's all throw the baby out with the bath water as we try to unrealistically force the world to conform to our comfort zone.

[tOM B]

I see cracked software a bit differently, i assume software companies have more money than most producers

You might think that, but profit margins on small companies aren't that big. And lets face it, most companies that make music software are quite small. i.e. I'd guess 20 people or less.

Note that the only reason Emagic and Steinberg have survived is they have been bought out by Apple and Yamaha respectively.

Part of the reason for this is the high prices, which are a direct result of pirate software. If everyone bought it, the prices would come down.

i stand corrected - i don't use any software yet and will seriously consider buying it when i need some :)

[davethedrummer]

i cant help think if everyone had of seen this coming they would have banded together & done something.

where as it happens to ppl one by one & they get pissed off as & when it happens to them.



point in case. i know a guy d'loaded Closer by Hawtin a month before it came out. he jus laughed & pretty much said '**** richie' but now its happened to one of his IDM heros he's gona ll anti-d'load. now, the same guy also cut part of a BMB live set to bits & played trax at a payed gig. when i pulled him about that, he jus laughed & said '**** regis & surgeon' but was still miffed about whatever IDM artist it was..

it seems ppl only having a passing interest UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM.

which i understand, but c'mon.. this has been on the cards for sooo long.

ya either got to cut your promo list to only those you REALLY trust or jus accept its gonna happen. as handy as MP3 are, and as wide as Ableton & Traktor & cdj's are used, i dont think its gonna kill the sales of an established artist like Drummer.

vinyl sales are just going down anyway.
i accept that.
illegal downloads are helping the process
soon it will just not be worth spending the time and energy you need
to make music commercially in any way.
is that a good thing?

less musicians in the world = less music


this is still a healthy debate becausei have already learned so much from your opinions

is there an answer ?

selling mp3s from your own site and not distributing anything at all.
no cds ( except by mail order )

no vinyl ( it's not worth it)
exclusivity completely, and when someon buys something
you get al the money.
( which is a lot less than you would earn from vinyl)
and then someone uploads it to soulseek

ok i know that is going to happen.
but now that cd is becoming a more popular alternative to vinyl
its not so unrealistice to just use cd in clubs.
and thats where the change is.

i think the way forward is

no distribution
no record shops
artists empower themselves and sell their own material on the net through their own websites.

pay pal / text message / credit card this is the kind of payment system we need to get round the credit card problem.

everyone these days has a mobile phone
use the account to pay for your tunes just like you would a ringtone.

maybe we are stupid to even bother discussing this
i mean who the hell are we anyway????

but i think it helps

[tocsin]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

[davethedrummer]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

[Jay Pace]

Ringtones mate, all about ringtones.

Singles actually make more from ringtones than they do through music sales.
Ridiculous.

I think you got it bang on about distribution and overheads though.
Take away pressing plants, wholesalers, distributors and records shops and you lose a lot of overheads.

A label selling its records online is pretty direct. Or selling through an established online vendor like bleep.com or beatport.com - plenty of money to be made there.

Also money moves much, much quicker. No waiting 4 months to get paid from releases. Instant payment! Pretty empowering for the artist. See the direct impact of your music on the market, straight into your bank account. That would be a hell of a buzz...

[tocsin]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

I've never pretended to be sqeaky-clean so I don't have a hypocrissy to rationalize here. Can you say the same?

[tocsin]

On another note,

vinyl sales are just going down anyway.
i accept that.
illegal downloads are helping the process
soon it will just not be worth spending the time and energy you need
to make music commercially in any way.
is that a good thing?
less musicians in the world = less music

I don't buy vinyl anymore. It's been almost 3 years. Do I download illegal tracks? Nope. See, what a number of people who have suddenlyjumped onto the RIAA boat have failed to miss is that, while you say "music isn't free," there are a number of guys making it for free and doing it ****ing better. I don't have to wait two years for an artist's work to come out anymore when they host it on their webpage, soulseek, whatever and give me permission to play it out. I'm not going to pretend to be the majority. But, I was a guy that had no prob, at one point in my life, walking into a record store and dropping $400 on vinyl regularly. But, I've no love for "vinyl." I prefer the speed and access of digital media over the net where sound can pretty much be spread at the speed of innovation, not held back by someone running a label.

So, is it a good thing that vinyl is dying? In my opinion, absofukkinglutely. Get with the times or get swept away as a relic. Your choice. If the availability of vinyl is all that keeps you doing music, and vinyl disappears, recognize that it's a choice you made and was a suicide rather than a murder.

[dirty_bass]

Excellent Point Steve
Shahoul do the paper?

Indeed.
Paper?
it`s a feckin book man.
You still talk to him?


That`s my bro right there, I¬m so proud of him, we`ve been fam since we were 5 years old.

[davethedrummer]

ps anyone with 1/2 a brain realises aritsts need to be paid for their music.

:thumbsup:

Be sure you get really high on a moral platform saying this and remember it the next time you open your favorite cracked software, use an uncleared sample, etc. :)

The members of the squeeky-clean club in this respect are now invited to show their hands.

including you?

I've never pretended to be sqeaky-clean so I don't have a hypocrissy to rationalize here. Can you say the same?

who's pretending?

read my post earlier about clint eastwood
do you really think he'd get on the nic for us in the studio?

for your information
as far as software goes i buy a hell of a lot more than i don't
all my main progs and plugs are registered.

but yes there's a few things here and there that i have tried out
but not much i actually use every day.

and as for music
i always buy my records unless i get sent one
which does happen occasionally ( and i mean occasionally)
and most of what i am sent is no good to play.

[tocsin]

Henry, you're rationalizing doing the same thing as those who "steal music." So, you don't have a leg to stand on here. I don't understand how you can bitch about people who "steal" from you when you steal from others. And I find it insulting when you piss all over an emerging scene in the process. You want to be part of it when it's convenient just as you want to be outside of it when it's convenient. It doesn't work that way.

[Mucky Beats]

just read first few pages of this.... I have never downloaded anything off soulseek or anything like that... lots of my mates have d/l sets whitch if there from a club i think is ok if the dj and club are cool with it. BUT no one should d/l tracks for free coz its wrong and you are killing off good music...please stop saying we carnt stop this ... think of it as a WAR and in any war never except defeat once you make it ok by saying we carnt stop it we have already lost stand up and think how many people do i know that do it and make them stop... even if you do it like smoking dont just tell your self you will quit do it now and never do it again.

IF YOU WANT MUSIC BUY IT !