**format wars** vinyl ? mp3 ? cd ? turntables ? ableton ?

[markandrew]

lay off the glass pipe man :lol:

[DJPAUZE]

I don't like watching ableton sets. I've never seen one that hasn't bored me. Ever. And don't be thinking "ah but he's not seen ME play". Chances are I probably have, and I thought it was SH1T. If I actually LIKED anything I'd be giving the artist props, big time. I mean, god give me SOMETHING TO LOVE AGAIN! I don't like coming on here and getting pissed off all the time, I've better things to do with my life... Techno should be a kick up the arse, not just loop after loop. Maybe it's a joy to listen to a seamless ableton mix for some people but I will always prefer vinyl sets and the inherent chaos possible therein.

All this "a dj can only ever play 2 records" hmmmm.... so playing more tunes at once is just immediately BETTER is it ? I don't think so. It's all about creating something new from the sum of the parts, not just sticking your 6 favourite records (sorry, loops) on top of one another and proclaiming yourself lord of techno :-(

I've even seen 'top' artists using ableton to dj FULL TRACKS whilst sending text messages to god knows who. I mean, how ****ing lazy do you want to be ? These people want WORKING ON imo. If this is the template for things to come, no wonder people are so confused.....

Can you scratch with ableton ? NO (or haha maybe there's a plugin now, a real COOL one hmmmm perhaps not)

Then again, most techno dj's can't dj anyway, there's nothing more boring than fade into fade of relentless doof doof doof. "listen to my new mix, it's just as mind numbing as the last one"... It's an alarmingly common thread in the scene "I couldn't play any instruments and I'm not remotely musical so I make dance music" - LOL - that's acceptable is it ? I've ranted about this before though, so no point covering old ground.

Also, people could try and look like they're into what they're doing as opposed to standing around like they're sending an email. Guess that's more the fault of the kind of people this "scene" seems to attract of late (Gimps, much?) but I imagine there MUST be people other than myself who feel this universal boredom when they witness an "ableton live set" - Where are the mavericks these days ? I haven't heard or seen anyone good using this supposed wonder software, maybe it's a blind path ? perhaps ? All I've seen lately is people aping everyone elses sound... (another favourite bugbear of mine) It's like when hip hop got shite, no innovation just a few cuss words over a GENERIC AS HELL beat and BEEF with another artist became enough to sell rekkids. When you have collage based music, you can draw from ANYTHING - so how come it all sounds exactly the same... Not a popular view I appreciate but PFFFT it's all about the trainwrecks - as long as there are MASSIVE CASUALTIES.

With regards to what is viewed as 'techno' these days, I just can't understand when people post releases here and it's like "WOW - FEELING THIS" - well, I ain't, it's usually WOEFUL ;-) Hence the lack of constructive comment inna "if you've nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" stylee ;-) No point in just hating on stuff but it's gotten to the point where there's just so much utilitarian junk kicking around I'm past caring. I've watched people who used to be little kids on the "scene" rise to great heights by FOLLOWING THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Don't rock the boat, now, just do like everyone else and you'll be fine... PFFFFFT I just don't want any part of this, it's not what techno is about. **** - it's not even what MUSIC is about, to be brutally honest. Herein lies the difference between ARTISTS and people who just want to stand on stage thinking they're amazing. I make music cause otherwise I'd be on the streets cutting peoples eyes out of their skulls (or my own). It stops me from going completely INSANE. I'm not out to please anyone with it, it requires no 'recognition' and I'm completely happy with things that way. If someone happens to want to release music of mine then fair play to them, I'm happy for them to do so - but it's NOT the reason I write it. I guess this is a personal thing, but it all seems to be mutual backslapping these days and AGAIN - that's not what techno should be about. "Well done, you've made a sound that is completely STANDARD" ugh.

I can think of so many GREAT djs who have gone the (dis)ableton route and to be honest they've all bored me to SHRIEKS with their 'live' output of late. Maybe I have the wrong idea about what techno is, though having seen it at what I consider to be its best - I DON'T THINK SO. A lot of the 'kids' these days missed the glory days and merely have recent stuff as their yardstick - I honestly pity such people, they've really missed something good. Not that something great and new couldn't flourish, creatively, I just haven't heard it and I'll warrant not many other people have either. It's gotten to the stage where anything remotely off the beaten path is viewed as WIERD unless some DJ says it's okay to like it. BULLSHIT. The people I respect as DJs hardly ever play anywhere, being as they're at the vanguard of sound - there's just no-one else there at the moment to appreciate it, everyone wants STANDARD CRAP.

I find it uproariously amusing that "old school" hip-hop is now viewed as being Tupac and Snoop... LOLOLOLOL that's NEW to me - old school is proper music like Marley Marl, Roxanne Shante, DJ Three D, Newcleus and all them other people who made me want to do nothing but LISTEN TO AWESOME MUSIC way back in the early 80s. It's the same with techno when it first 'appeared' - It was fresh, always unexpected and just generally RAD ! What is considered 'cool' or 'good' these days usually makes me want to stick my face in a blender and dream myself to death as my head is rendered into chunks of floppy flesh and splintered bone. It's all so very, very pointless.

As darkthrone put it "YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH ME, YOU THINK OLD SCHOOL IS 1993" lol... Fair enough they're talking about METAL but then it pretty much applies to most scenes.

Playing good tracks on ableton is all well and good, but don't dress it up like you're doing anything special - it's not, anyone could do it ! Besides, I don't like hearing 'good tracks' over and over, I want to hear the sound of a thousand people having their heads BLOWN TO BITS by a heaving, shambling mass ! These days I'd rather stay at home than go to a techno club, and that's a pretty shit state of affairs being as I once loved this music with a real PASSION. If I do go I spend most of the time chatting with friends and outside smoking. Oh, for the days when I'd be running around like a lunatic on NO DRUGS for 7 odd hours listening to bleeding edge brain wrongs ;-) Then again, this was before the days of TEH INTERNETS (which I reckon has homogenised things to a great extent)

My wee cousin sounds like Chris Liebing on ableton, every bit as 'good', is that a GOOD or a BAD thing ? He doesn't know ANYTHING about techno, he just wanted to fanny around and I fired him a bunch of tracks to piss about with. This surely isn't 'right' is it ? He's 13 LOL ! Y'all just seem to want to sound like everyone else "how do I make this sound from xxxxxx record" etc etc - who cares, it's the journey and the wandering off down side roads that's the main fun. Why strive to sound JUST LIKE SOMEONE ELSE ? We don't need more emulators, what we need are INNOVATORS ! I'd genuinely love to see/hear someone come along and take the hinges off the cage for you :-)

There's a lot of people 'at the top' with a lot to answer for, as far as I'm concerned. SH1T AND CREAM RISES, as they say, but I see little or no evidence of dairy product these days - get what I'm saying ?

I'm not spitting the dummy and P1SS1NG OFF for good, but I've kinda had it with this place - circular argument after circular argument. Loads of talk but no-one says anything. I guess that kinda sums up 'techno' these days though. I've got better things to be getting on with in my life. I appreciate no-one ASKED for my 10p worth of course, and also appreciate I probably won't be missed (most of my posts are silly jokes or rage haha). Given the no doubt massive weight of popular opinion AGAINST such posts as this, it's probably for the best - I shall let you all get on with it eh ;-)

Plus, bear in mind I >am< particularly PISSED OFF at the moment (you'd never tell, huh). However, it's nothing to do with music... Just more disgust at the general state of the world and the people in it - but still I felt the need to get this off my chest, hopefully people will see it for what it is rather than check the BLOCK of text, check the POSTERS NAME and just think "R-SOUL - I ain't reading that" ;-) Give it a little thought before casting it aside..... It IS constructive, believe it or not.....

Sometimes you have to smash things apart just to build something new :-)

PS: I am available for spoken word performances at childrens parties, if anyone is interested. "positive" and "upbeat" are just a few of the words that have never been said about me ;-)

I think this is the best post to date. I am sick of guys saying they do a live pa, which is just press play on every track they have made or cut a bunch of loops and run em in Ableton. Live PA in my definition is with gear, not a lappy and a plastic controller. Everyone and their friking dog can do a live PA. Heck my live PA is phenominal. Just a bunch loops with a great reverb on my send number 1 and a randomizer on send 2! )@(&*#(*@&#.

I also think its hilarious how they consider half the groups from today hip hop. Its like pop hop more like it. If you can even compare 1 artist today that's in the mainstream to DJ Premier, EPMD, or Jeru the Damaja I would be suprised.

Just a thought.

Pauze

[Smear]

1. "I couldn't play any instruments and I'm not remotely musical so I make dance music" - LOL

2.I've watched people who used to be little kids on the "scene" rise to great heights by FOLLOWING THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Don't rock the boat, now, just do like everyone else and you'll be fine... PFFFFFT I just don't want any part of this, it's not what techno is about. **** - it's not even what MUSIC is about, to be brutally honest.

3.A lot of the 'kids' these days missed the glory days and merely have recent stuff as their yardstick - I honestly pity such people, they've really missed something good.

(Numbered a couple of main reference points because by Christ it's a lot to get through, haha)

1. When you look at official bios of a lot of DJs, you'd be amazed how many artists make a big deal of their classical music training, as if that makes them all the more qualified to produce essentially monotempo, monorhythmic and monotonous disco music. Furthermore, the same people ALWAYS converted to electronic music when(without exception!) they heard Gary Numan, and Kraftwerk. There's an extraordinary amount of DJs with that EXACT life story. Either they're all lying(or are at the same agency), or it explains why none of them do anything that's worth mentioning. So I dunno if the fact that these guys see some sort of link with being a clasically trained cellist and techno, or that they ALL worship the same two pop music entities(I'm assuming they read the early detroit guys were into them) has anything to do with their mediocrity.

2. That's partly the fate of all musical movements, and partly the nature of the hierarchy within a scene like techno, where a DJ is the link between your product and the audience: If it's difficult for him to use, or it doesn't get an instant crowd response, then he's not likely to use it again. As a consequence, the prevalent production style in the scene ends up pandering to whatever gets the biggest and most immediate feedback from the people dancing, as it's the easiest(and most flawed) measure of quality.

3. Again it's partly the way with musical history, although it's amazing that even with all this immediate access to information on the net, that people today seem to know less about music than they did maybe 20/30/40 years ago. The Beatles, the biggest pop band in the world in their day, were pretty into avant garde and various bits of asian music and whatnot, to the point where they applied some of the ideas from there into their own pop music. Pick a random 'experimental dark hard techno(lol)' producer of today and they probably couldn't tell you The Beatles' first names.

As for the rest of it, I've already been working on keeping any actual discussions about techno off this forum lately. No offence to anyone here and I'll sound like a "pretentious chin stroking wanker" for saying it, but I don't see enough discussion here. It's almost as if people think that to discuss and disagree with someone is arguing, arguing is fighting, therefore discussion is some kind of violent behaviour. And that to me is part of the problem Jamie's talking about as well: the unwillingness to risk looking stupid or look like someone who just likes a fight, by saying something that's not generally accepted as gospel. Or worse, the unwillingness to risk being accused of damaging the scene. THAT is damaging the scene.

[Patrick DSP]

I think this is the best post to date. I am sick of guys saying they do a live pa, which is just press play on every track they have made or cut a bunch of loops and run em in Ableton. Live PA in my definition is with gear, not a lappy and a plastic controller. Everyone and their friking dog can do a live PA. Heck my live PA is phenominal. Just a bunch loops with a great reverb on my send number 1 and a randomizer on send 2! )@(&*#(*@&#....

I also think its hilarious how they consider half the groups from today hip hop. Its like pop hop more like it. If you can even compare 1 artist today that's in the mainstream to DJ Premier, EPMD, or Jeru the Damaja I would be suprised.

Just a thought.

Pauze

You might want to rethink what qualifies as a "real live pa"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEhMOKhflms

I obviously don't agree with using full tracks in a live pa but there's a give and take these days with hardware/software and airplanes as well as what you're able to do and what you're willing to do for each gig. And that's what Mr. Advent is doing in that video with his "cheap plastic controller" and dj mixer. but that's another kettle of fish.

i'll agree with you on your hip hop point, it's all too watered down these days. bring back the real shit.

[tocsin]

Girl Talk, a rather mediocre performer who stands on stage with a laptop, and invites about 100 people from the crowd to dance on stage around him to make it look somewhat more interesting, sold 6000 tickets at $20/$22 a pop for a total of 2 60-90 minute performances of pirated loops. That's at least $120,000 through the door alone on one weekend. Expect it to stay dull for awhile. ;)

[Smear]

Girl Talk, a rather mediocre performer who stands on stage with a laptop, and invites about 100 people from the crowd to dance on stage around him to make it look somewhat more interesting, sold 6000 tickets at $20/$22 a pop for a total of 2 60-90 minute performances of pirated loops. That's at least $120,000 through the door alone on one weekend. Expect it to stay dull for awhile. ;)

I remember as a kid talking to someone on napster, they were all 'yeah Girl Talk is a true Dada artist, you know Kid 606's Straight Outta Compton remix? Girl Talk cut that up and re-assembled it back into the original, have a listen'

'but.....almost everything Kid 606 did to that song is physically impossible to undo, what you have here, is NWA's Straight Outta Compton, with a wind-up merchant's name on it.'

'no no no no, it's it's it's it's it's....Dada! Girl Talk is genius!'

'No....do I have to sit and explain the concept of sound to you?'

And so it went on. That's the first time i've heard the name Girl Talk since then, haha.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Regardless of the tools used, there will always be musicians making and playing good music, and there will always be those there purely in the pursuit of fame and popularity, regardless of the consequences or methods.

One can not blame the tools. I`ve taught countless people to mix with vinyl, it`s a very very simple motor skill to master.
And I`ve helped a lot of people get technically adept on the decks, this didn`t make them good or original DJ`s.

Ableton, Akai MPC2000, or 20 keybaords all running from a sequencer, all can be utilised to their fullest or least extent.

The man maketh the art, with the tool he maketh the mark.

[clubsynthetic]

haha , i like your boldness, jamie. Frustrated? what can you do except sit down piss all over what shit there is,, show folk what its worth.

Is it importent what format the music is on if it comes from your heart? Expression is a big thing for me personally in live performance on any format physically as well as emotionally.

technical bla bla bla. i don't particaurly like watching people play guitar but every time i watch jimmy hendrix i get shivvers down my spine. I don't have anything that effects me like that these days but i'm sure sooner or later someone's gonna come along and totally tear these new-wave programs up and melt your brain and it'll be when you least expect it!

[tocsin]

I remember as a kid talking to someone on napster, they were all 'yeah Girl Talk is a true Dada artist, you know Kid 606's Straight Outta Compton remix? Girl Talk cut that up and re-assembled it back into the original, have a listen'

'but.....almost everything Kid 606 did to that song is physically impossible to undo, what you have here, is NWA's Straight Outta Compton, with a wind-up merchant's name on it.'

'no no no no, it's it's it's it's it's....Dada! Girl Talk is genius!'

'No....do I have to sit and explain the concept of sound to you?'

And so it went on. That's the first time i've heard the name Girl Talk since then, haha.

Unfortunately, being in the NYC area, the "hipster" scene is the dominant one, and it's quite lucrative if you get the buzz about you. "Artists" like Girl Talk fit right in. It's incredibly simple to do with the tools that a number of us have used so I'm just not expecting techno to go anywhere in my vicinity. It's very much LCD now. At the same time, it's going to allow for people doing something more complex and a bit different to bubble to the top again as this shit becomes the norm and eventually gets boring for the same scene that's lapping it up now. But, yeah, Girl Talk being Dada is a ****ing joke. So was Too Many DJs then. Negativland gets no love.

[tamobanter]

i look forward to yer set 2moro nite jamie



:D

[gunjack]

if you are going to use ableton live at least try to keep the mixes moving and stay mixing THE WHOLE time or as much as possible. nothing worse than seeing somebody do a little 3 second mix and then bop around for the next 3minutes and then do another quick edit and have another wank while the song plays...

[Microdot]

I think this is the best post to date. I am sick of guys saying they do a live pa, which is just press play on every track they have made or cut a bunch of loops and run em in Ableton. Live PA in my definition is with gear, not a lappy and a plastic controller. Everyone and their friking dog can do a live PA. Heck my live PA is phenominal. Just a bunch loops with a great reverb on my send number 1 and a randomizer on send 2! )@(&*#(*@&#.

That's crap, as is the post you've quoted.
I've done live PAs in just about every format you can imagine, including filling the stage with 909, 303, 101, 202 etc. and a live PA is basically a live PA whatever way the artist performs it.

What's the difference between making up a live set from loops on ableton and making one from loops on an Akai S1000?

As for folks beefing about how people put their sets together and what they use, maybe try listening to the music instead of watching the DJ.

If it sounds good, it is good.

[Jay Pace]

ableton sets might be dull if they're badly done
Live sets are not
Always thought james ruskin and dave the drummer did excellent hybrids - best of both worlds stuff. Same goes for BMB.

You need to start looking at more IDM artists like tim exile to see someone making proper use of "in the box" technology.

There might be more of a perfomance angle watching someone frantically run around stage tweaking his army of machines, but if it sounds the same as someone using a laptop and a controller you're not really losing much. Maybe the visual impact of someone running around on stage fiddling. Always thought that was pretty uninspiring anyway. Hardly competes with a band for performance...

I propose a new rule
All livesets should be accompanied by a bez type shaking maracas.
yeah man

[Siege]

damn!

dirty linen alert!

[Jay Pace]

Someone delete this shit.

[rhythmtech]

its been noted in mods forum, just waiting for slav or dan to come online.

[SlavikSvensk]

damn!

dirty linen alert!

i know, right?

[JamieBall]

Don't delete - first time I've been on in ages and I've got some true LOLZ !

edit : DAMN, I'm TOO LATE :-s

[JamieBall]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bioE_cQNKi0

The noise shin makes at around the 2 minutes 10 mark - PRICELESS

[the_psychologist]

I used to be pretty crusty re: vinyl vs. CD vs. whatever, but the bottom line is that I just want a set to make me dance. I don't give a shit if it's all gear (a la Mux's old rig) or a laptop set, but i do care if it motivates me in that dark corner and makes me move.

Technical wankery is good for turntablists and can't really be replaced by laptop rigs. But I have rarely seen a Techno/Trance/Breaks DJ use multiple decks to any great effect. It's usually a case of showing off, which I guess contributes to the vibe that something special is happening. But it can all be overdone - I remember all too well when mixers w/ effects came on the market and sets would get lost in this clingclongwaaaahswooshthumbshrang of delay and whatnot. It just made me sit down and get sleepy.

If you're a DJ and billed as as such, then what I expect is:

-No Trainwrecking (solved if you understand Ableton)
-Good EQing (not solved by Ableton)
-Good track selection (not solved by Ableton)
-Good sequencing (not solved by Ableton)
-Tasteful tricks (not solved by Ableton)
-An overall ability to let the music dictate mixes and progression (not solved by Ableton)

As you can see, only a small part of DJing is "solved" by using Ableton and the like. The rest still comes with either being naturally gifted or having lots of practice. Now, to people who are already satisfying the above list, there is still infinite room for expansion using something like Live. For someone on 2 decks, where do you go from there? Not every style of music benefits from the scratch.

If you're billed as a Live PA, all that means is that you are appearing in person to perform your own music. I have seen some huge acts over the years, using all sorts of hardware, and many did very little live. They would mostly play back a set and then add one live instrument on top and maybe live EQing.

The bigger problem is that taste and standards have eroded IMO. People don't really give a shit if music is skillfully made any longer, and acts like Deadmau5 get huge gigs playing 50% filler crap, largely because they do the LCD thing of wearing a costume. Likewise, I don't think there are very high standards for DJs. If promoters and punters don't hold acts to a high standard, there's nothing to be done. The natural tendency of humans is to reach for the low-hanging fruit, which means the simplest way to perform in front of a crowd and be called a "DJ' or "Live PA".

Shit, you can produce tracks on your iPhone now! And anyone who knows little of electronic music will consider that iPhone track to be the equal of a classic track from years gone by.

I think the whole model of what it means to be an artist is changing and it's the same situation as ever - Some people will choose to cry about it and do nothing while others will exploit the new technology and benefit.