The Means ? Or The Ends ?

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good points from many peeps here, though i do think DB has made yet more smart arse comments that are of use to no one ;)

lol jus kidding DB.. i do see where all peeps are coming from, and maybe (again ffs) i havent totally explained my point.


ok.. try this one on ---> Jeff Mills is known for hi manic mixing style (regardless of accuracy of the mix) and there are ppl who actually dig that vibe.. the slightly out of synce mixes that although lacking in precision are bursting with enthusiasm. i myself appreciate a dj trying things.. throwing records in & out like stink.. and if they do make a mistake, its only cos they are pushin it sooo far. at times i feel the same about trax. some, imo, are too worked, too polished, to the point where the raw energy is drained out in an attempt to get every aspect perfect. take the hard hard techno of Amok etc.. some of it sounds too squeezed or thrown down real quick, but maybe thats their buzz... get the idea down real quick & keep the raw initial buzz as opposed to spending 3 months on eq'ing hats..

i aint bitter as DB insinuates. in fact, i accepted a long time ago that i would not make it as a producer.. and there are many reasons for that. none of which i will bore you with here lol

maybe its a 'forum thing' that has came about... but there does seeem to be a tendancy to home in on production level as opposed to the actual 'groove' or 'tune' thats been laid down. i could be wrong.. i dunno. its jus a thought & nothing more. so please ppl, dont take it as a stab at anyone or any thing, its jus a thought that comes back to me from time to time.

the post wasnt meant to incite or hate on anyone. jus a post.. a thought.. if it IS that futile or inciteful, then by all means mods, remove it.

i'm married now, and quite frankly, much much more interested in my wife & home than a bunch of opinionated techno geeks lol

jus kidding :P

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ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?

i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.

i wasnt accusing any one person. i mentioned no names. i dont know why you believe this was about you, but rest assured, its not singling anyone out at all.

as for the 'schranz/techno' issue.. its in reference to the sticky.. like i said then, it wasnt to single you out SOS, it was jus an example. in truth, i find the attitude in the Dark/Dungeon forum waaay more righteous than anything.. some of the abuse handed out in there is downright sad.

i have friends who are big into their techno, much more than i am these days. we diagree, quite strongly,. on a lot of things, but its never ever got nasty. its jus life. i dont know why forums seem to carry so much weight, but thats the web for ya.

[module]

Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.

So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.

^^ excellent point jay. well made

[The Overfiend]

ok, if i a kid in abedroom makes a track with bad highs, thats fiune. nelp him, by all means, but dont dissect the guy frequency by frequency. and if its in a style you dont dig, thats cool, you dont have to lay on the abuse. like all the Schranz bashing that went on... which then has been replaced by Minimil Bashing..

i mean, really... wtf ??? is this a scene or a f**king playground lol is it a community or a classroom ?


i may come across badly in gettin my message across, but i believe there are those that know what i'm gettin at...

and, this is not a bash at SOS, but the thread about 'schranz v techno' is soooo playground.. what is the point ? other than to bash other ppls views & opinions ?

i dont intend to offend or upset anyone with this, but i need to say it somewhere. and i feel this is prob the best place for it to be heard.

can we PLEASE get back to the music ? and drop the one up manship ?

No one man up ship going on whatsoever on my part.
I do not think I am any better than the next man.
I practice my craft daily and still know I have a lot to learn.
I do agree wit mac, the producers of yester year on hardware, did know quite a bit about what they were doing.

i wasnt accusing any one person. i mentioned no names. i dont know why you believe this was about you, but rest assured, its not singling anyone out at all.

as for the 'schranz/techno' issue.. its in reference to the sticky.. like i said then, it wasnt to single you out SOS, it was jus an example. in truth, i find the attitude in the Dark/Dungeon forum waaay more righteous than anything.. some of the abuse handed out in there is downright sad.

i have friends who are big into their techno, much more than i am these days. we diagree, quite strongly,. on a lot of things, but its never ever got nasty. its jus life. i dont know why forums seem to carry so much weight, but thats the web for ya.

understood.

i too live the family life.

quickest way put that sticky is there screaming
hey
I am an artist
and I make hard techno
and i will not let a schranz producer or group of come along
and redefine what i and many others here do.

[RDR]

maybe in future we should put a pros/cons reply?

A ****ing safe idea.

Remarks must be qualified though.

[RDR]

the producers of yesteryear did know quite a bit about what they were doing.

[Jay Pace]

I really like that pro's/con's idea too.

Gets you in a more constructive mindset, rather than just staying quiet, or comments like "too minimal for me, not my cup of tea" which are a pain in the arse if you are looking for feedback.

[RDR]

Oopps

They had to, there was no other way of doing things, not banks of presets, not hordes of loop CDs, expensive equipment. you couldnt buy it at the end of every month, end of 6months more like,,, so they got chance to KNOW their equipment, to understand it and its limits and benefits.

[eyeswithoutaface]

"when i were a lad!......"

[robin m]

Can't say I've ever seen anyone's stuff in the production forum get unhelpful reviews or plain abuse myself.

Whenever I've posted a track up I'm hoping people will comment on the production side of it, and I don't want to hear about the things I've done well so much as the things I've done badly - it's impossible to keep listening to your tune objectively and after the 2,000th listen to the same loop your ear just tunes out the shit bits. Someone else who knows what they're talking about to the point that they can pinpoint the frequencies that need cutting or sounds that are mushing into one another can say whatever they like about my tune, the more the better - that's the stuff I want to hear that I can use to actually make a better sound next time.

I don't really give a shit (well, I'll never complain :cheese:) if someone just pipes up with 'I like the groove'... and if I changed the "tune" every time someone said they didn't like it, I wouldn't be writing my own music - bollocks to that :)

[module]

btw, i aint talkin exclusively about BOA... or techno for that matter. there jus seems to me to be a general air of emphasis on the production over the tune. imo.

maybe its jus the ppl i hang with or forums i read, doesnt make it true, its jus what i see & hear these days & i find it.. i dont know.. a bit by the by or beside the actual point.

anyways.. cool to see good points & good feedback & ideas i hadnt considered. oh yeah, and 'gay' comments.. cos they really are best left to South Park lol

good stuff peeps :)

[holotropik]

Part of the problem is that if you don't like the tune or if it does nothing for you then all you have to comment on is the production.

So production gets singled out. Its something everyone can comment on.
The quality of the tune itself will be a matter of personal taste.

Good point man! True.

[holotropik]

ok.. try this one on ---> Jeff Mills is known for hi manic mixing style (regardless of accuracy of the mix) and there are ppl who actually dig that vibe.. the slightly out of synce mixes that although lacking in precision are bursting with enthusiasm. i myself appreciate a dj trying things.. throwing records in & out like stink.. and if they do make a mistake, its only cos they are pushin it sooo far. at times i feel the same about trax. some, imo, are too worked, too polished, to the point where the raw energy is drained out in an attempt to get every aspect perfect. take the hard hard techno of Amok etc.. some of it sounds too squeezed or thrown down real quick, but maybe thats their buzz... get the idea down real quick & keep the raw initial buzz as opposed to spending 3 months on eq'ing hats..

I agree.
Prefer stuff that is raw as opposed to perfect.
Dj Rush (one of my favs for this reason).

[dirty_bass]

to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.

If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.

And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.

[holotropik]

[quote="dirty_bass"]If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.quote]

true.
beware your ego...

[dirty_bass]

totally, it`s an ego blow to get critiqued, but better to get it in place place that is designed for it, then to get it as part of a demo rejection from a record label, who may well not bother listening to any further demo`s you send as they were unimpressed.

[Jay Pace]

I'm indebted to this place for objective criticism.

Although its admittedly hard to take, when you spend months working on something you think is great, only to have it decimated.
But its the best way to learn. Painful, but you know you are making progress.

I listen to stuff I made a couple of years ago and wince at the quality of it.
Without someone else to explain to me why it sounded bad I might still think it was the shizzle.

[holotropik]

Also
A track will be better if the artist is at a point where they are "on song".
Some know the feeling of when you "are on it" and stuff just flows.
At this point your creativity and production will be appropriate according to your knowledge and experience. Others will see/feel this in the track.

of course there are times when that track isnt what you want to listen to at the moment.
No amount of "polish" will make it otherwise. Timing is everything, perhaps?

I find that I will comment on the tracks content if I have listened to the artists work previously on numerous occaisions.

[module]

to be honest I think for the most part areas of taste should be avoided in critisism.
But a lot of people post just wanting a pat on the back, and when they don`t get it, get assy. Issues of taste are really irrelevent to all but the producer making the tune.
So it comes down to just commenting on the production itself, pointing out good areas is needed sure, as well as what could be improved, and then providing solutions.

If you can`t take critisism, then really you shouldn`t be posting your music up publicly.

And I don`t think I make smart ass comments to reply to Pete.
I`m exceedingly clinical in analysing the production side of a tune, if you take this as a personal attack, then really, that`s your insecurity, not mine.

dude.. seriously, its not about my stuff.. ive put up only one track in months now. and you actually said you quite liked it. most ppl did. and i wasnt expecting anyone to dig it tbh.

i'm not talking about me here. this isnt about my tunes. i havent done a thing since way last year.. the odd noodle, as was posted in the production files, but thats it.

i'm talking about the bigger picture. other ppl on other forums & how its almost a new culture.. this isnt a 'oh.. nobody likes my loops.. boo hoo' lol its jus a thought. but one i thought i could maybe get some new & fresh views on via BOA. i dont know why your coming at it the way you are. i hope this goes some way to explaning it further. seriously, this isnt an ego thing.. my ego was battered down along time ago via djing & partying too much.. i had my big fall waaay back believe me lol

and DB, it was jus a joke, not a dig. i dont mean ill.. was jus in jest.

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tbh, ive never had a problem with anyone not liking anything ive done. its the manner in which ppl address certain issues, and it aint jus here. its ppl i know & lots of other forums.. the taste thing is subjective.. and gettin constructive comments is worth its weight in gold. not that ive done anything to get any feedback on lately.. its not gettin the flack, ive learned about that in bands since i was 12 & i got the thick sorta skin with music critique. its jus when ppl seem to get almost preachy & righteous.. yes, help. and be straight & to the point, but there is lil use in jus ripping on someone & trying to posture.

and this isnt aimed at anyone in particular. certainly not you DB. yes, at times you can be scathing, but thats your way. and you have the credentials to back up your word.

i maybe could/should have spent more time on the first post & said all this then, but i didnt. sorry.

was jus something i thought was worth throwing out there :)


but yeah, its a comment about production forums, not my experience. and some ppl have seen where im at with it.