The way Schranz is going....

[dirty_bass]

Ah man, don't be like that. Digital is an option for everyone if they want, but the death of vinyl won't suddenly help achieve what you're talking about at all. What about the people who actually like releasing vinyl and do put out good records? There are a lot of labels that wouldn't be as bothered if their only option was digital. You need to give this subject a bit more thought I think.

I`ve thought a lot, believe me, but we are entering a time when techno is almost run by one distributer, and this is a scary situation to be in. Monopoly does nothing for any business or organisation/scene.
Pretty soon the financial arrangemnts will start twisting further, and we will see less labels being able to afford to run within this monopolies idea of the techno market.
I don`t wish anyone out of business, but taking a big step back and a realistic look at the way things have gone without wishful eyes, or a head in the sand mentality, and it don`t exactly paint a pretty picture.
The mp3 revolution however, is nothing but positive really.

[Sunil]

I`ve thought a lot, believe me, but we are entering a time when techno is almost run by one distributer, and this is a scary situation to be in. Monopoly does nothing for any business or organisation/scene.
Pretty soon the financial arrangemnts will start twisting further, and we will see less labels being able to afford to run within this monopolies idea of the techno market.
I don`t wish anyone out of business, but taking a big step back and a realistic look at the way things have gone without wishful eyes, or a head in the sand mentality, and it don`t exactly paint a pretty picture.
The mp3 revolution however, is nothing but positive really.

Ok, so Neuton - as an example - might dictate some stuff from Germany or whatever, but that said, they (bigger companies) are necessary too. They are useful to smaller 'middle-men' companies, and when a big one goes down, sometimes lots of great labels go down, and smaller distributors suffer. EFA anyone?

As a matter of interest, who is/are the big bad wolf 'monopoly' distributor(s) in your opinion?

Personally I can think of quite a few small independent companies that are doing a good job and who I want to see continue selling records. Veto, Electronik, Possible, Base Level are quick examples. None of them have embraced Mp3 yet, and seem to be still managing, albeit probably not making bucketloads of money.

Also, there are many rock, and A-Z style distributors that are doing more electronic vinyl now, which I think is good. I've seen records pop up on lists I wouldn't have expected to have previously seen - sure, it might be a sign of labels having to spread their wings to shift units, but personally I think it's good to see a wider chain emerging for electronic/techno vinyl.

Ok, monopolies are not good, especially as mediocre music will prosper more as a result. That's why it's good to have faith in the existing companies that are keeping it real, putting out good records, and keeping independent spirit alive.

Relying on or putting all your faith into mp3 only and you're subscribing to an invisible and potentially *far* weaker scene in my opinion. The proof is already in the pudding, if you analyse the 'history' of digital labels, and vinyl labels converting to digital only.... I mean, where are the success stories?

More adventurous releases from some distributors would be a big advantage alright, but bland music seems to be more visible for a number of reasons now, including:

- Less new music being released, full stop.
- DJs (Big name) playing too many new records that don't cut the mustard.
- A disintigration of innovation

This said, I have lots of hope for the future, and hope many people can claw their way back, and that the appetite for edgier music in general... returns a little bit more.

I understand what you're saying about digital bringing control back to the independent artist, but that option is already there and has been for some time. The 'good' days of successful distributors are what brought us the great records we all own. There's a lot to be said for the single minded vision of distributors, past and present, which can't be scoffed at. If I were a label under the wing of a happening distributor, I know I'd be far happier than being a dot in the ocean of the digital label internet highway...

[massplanck]

Sunil is the truth.

[The Overfiend]

Distro's should focus on the mp3 thing and less vinylshould be pressed, let's face it the day of the bedroom dj is almost numbered vinyl wise.
So maybe runs of 300 pressed should go into effect.
Should that sell then pressings of higher amounts should be repressed.
Supply and demand
Distros expect sales of 1000
Reality is press 300 sell 300
repress.

[dirty_bass]

Distro's should focus on the mp3 thing and less vinylshould be pressed, let's face it the day of the bedroom dj is almost numbered vinyl wise.
So maybe runs of 300 pressed should go into effect.
Should that sell then pressings of higher amounts should be repressed.
Supply and demand
Distros expect sales of 1000
Reality is press 300 sell 300
repress.

Unless you want a real bad cut and shitty vinyl, then you won`t break even on 300 if you sell out.
Unless you send out zero promo`s
But I get your point.

[crime]

Why does everyone seem to think that vinyl sales are continuously dropping? there was the big drop about five years ago, but I think it's levelled off since, and in fact as far as the minimal stuff goes, are increasing (with certain labels/ producers)... people who are pretty underground are still doing at least 5 or 600 copies of a record, which is break even point. or is it just your records are doing badly of late DB? (not a dig, an honest question) ;)

If sales figures were dropping at the rate people go on about it here, then surely there would be no more vinly labels, record shops, no more sale of turntables etc....

[dirty_bass]

Why does everyone seem to think that vinyl sales are continuously dropping? there was the big drop about five years ago, but I think it's levelled off since, and in fact as far as the minimal stuff goes, are increasing (with certain labels/ producers)... people who are pretty underground are still doing at least 5 or 600 copies of a record, which is break even point. or is it just your records are doing badly of late DB? (not a dig, an honest question) ;)

If sales figures were dropping at the rate people go on about it here, then surely there would be no more vinly labels, record shops, no more sale of turntables etc....

Well, I`m probably doing as well as any other label of my size. Weathering the storm, but not hitting 3000 any more.
But I`m not griping about my own label at all, I`m thankfull they are selling, and I`ve got other projects and other places to put my eggs.

as for sales levelled off in the market, I`m not so sure.

Your right, minimal sales are great, that`s not what we are talking about here though.
I have found that with my other label, going non techno for distribution has been amazing, but that`s by the by.

But anyway, your totally right, sales aren`t the be all and end all by any stretch, jesus, if they were, I wouldn`t have sunk a load of money into a frankly quite stupid risk of a project for one of my labels.
Integrity and creativity, remaining true to yourself and never standing still, these things are far more important.

Hell, I been on an all night burn in the studio right now, and the only reason I`m typing this now is to give my ears a rest, so despite all the doom and gloom, it`s just banter.

At the end of the day, I love music, and I`ll always be making it, regardless of an audience, and I expect a lot of us are the same.

[Aratron]

Unless you want a real bad cut and shitty vinyl, then you won`t break even on 300 if you sell out.
Unless you send out zero promo`s
But I get your point.

i dont get all this talk of vinyls only selling 300.i spoke to rowland deems otha day (on msn) he was telling me that a recent infected only sold 300 copies i couldnt beleive this as i had a copy a friend of mine had bought 2 copies by mistake, and we live in shit-town doncaster ffs.
if only one techno head in each town had a copy thats more than 300.

[dirty_bass]

i dont get all this talk of vinyls only selling 300.i spoke to rowland deems otha day (on msn) he was telling me that a recent infected only sold 300 copies i couldnt beleive this as i had a copy a friend of mine had bought 2 copies by mistake, and we live in shit-town doncaster ffs.
if only one techno head in each town had a copy thats more than 300.

You`d be surprised mate, I know of some producers who I majorly respect, who I thought would sell boatloads on their name alone who have given me tales of woe about their sales.

But enough doom and gloom I think.

There are plenty of good things happenin too.

[SlavikSvensk]

Ok, so Neuton - as an example - might dictate some stuff from Germany or whatever, but that said, they (bigger companies) are necessary too. They are useful to smaller 'middle-men' companies, and when a big one goes down, sometimes lots of great labels go down, and smaller distributors suffer. EFA anyone?

As a matter of interest, who is/are the big bad wolf 'monopoly' distributor(s) in your opinion?

Personally I can think of quite a few small independent companies that are doing a good job and who I want to see continue selling records. Veto, Electronik, Possible, Base Level are quick examples. None of them have embraced Mp3 yet, and seem to be still managing, albeit probably not making bucketloads of money.

Also, there are many rock, and A-Z style distributors that are doing more electronic vinyl now, which I think is good. I've seen records pop up on lists I wouldn't have expected to have previously seen - sure, it might be a sign of labels having to spread their wings to shift units, but personally I think it's good to see a wider chain emerging for electronic/techno vinyl.

Ok, monopolies are not good, especially as mediocre music will prosper more as a result. That's why it's good to have faith in the existing companies that are keeping it real, putting out good records, and keeping independent spirit alive.

Relying on or putting all your faith into mp3 only and you're subscribing to an invisible and potentially *far* weaker scene in my opinion. The proof is already in the pudding, if you analyse the 'history' of digital labels, and vinyl labels converting to digital only.... I mean, where are the success stories?

More adventurous releases from some distributors would be a big advantage alright, but bland music seems to be more visible for a number of reasons now, including:

- Less new music being released, full stop.
- DJs (Big name) playing too many new records that don't cut the mustard.
- A disintigration of innovation

This said, I have lots of hope for the future, and hope many people can claw their way back, and that the appetite for edgier music in general... returns a little bit more.

I understand what you're saying about digital bringing control back to the independent artist, but that option is already there and has been for some time. The 'good' days of successful distributors are what brought us the great records we all own. There's a lot to be said for the single minded vision of distributors, past and present, which can't be scoffed at. If I were a label under the wing of a happening distributor, I know I'd be far happier than being a dot in the ocean of the digital label internet highway...

think you misunderstood me a bit, though. i wasn't talking about big bad wolf distributors or labels at all. i'm really sympathetic to the need for labels and distributors to make ends meet, and i think techno is only healthy when they can :)

the mp3 idea really is dirtybass'. i think it could help in some ways, but if you read my post again, you can see i'm also saying it's not the real problem with techno, as i see it.

i'm also not advocating big labels so much as higher quality standards. ever since the flood of decent-production techno that came with the prime/swedish invasion days (starting around 1996), there seems to be less versatility among (most) producers and less variety within labels.

but, of course, the thing about the swedish guys in that period is that, for a while at least, most everything they put out was new and good.

to me, in recent years techno has been plagued by an absolutel glut of cookie-cutter loops on a seemingly exponent number of more and more specialized labels. some are responding to demand for more minimal, more schranz, etc. and some are just there because it's so easy to start a label (but so hard to keep one afloat).

what i'm asking for is for labels to look for producers who can do MORE, maybe even on a single record. and instead of putting out quantity, put out quality. instead of getting one quasi-song and 3 dj tool loops, how about 3 songs and 1 loop? how about instead of label A putting out 4 records by so-and-so in a year, putting out one where all the tracks are really, really good?

sure this would limit some sales but it would also limit overhead. and my thought about label collectives might mean that labels could be more selective. sure this is not a money making idea, but maybe it's also not a money hemhoraging idea. :)

see where i'm going with this?

[Sunil]

think you misunderstood me a bit, though. i wasn't talking about big bad wolf distributors or labels at all. i'm really sympathetic to the need for labels and distributors to make ends meet, and i think techno is only healthy when they can :)

I was directing that post to DB's previous one, not yours ;)

I get what you're saying totally. Yes, the need for less producers is a good point, in total agreement with you on that... even if it could be an improbability! It comes back to DB's point about too many producers releasing to keep their profile up - something which seems pretty rife in schranz, or indeed many other styles of music. It has to do with what's popular I guess - and let's face it, many great techno producers used to shit out releases. By his own admission, even Lekebusch for instance, was someone who released stuff that wasn't always as good as it might have been... but I guess when an opportunity presents itself or is easy to do, people will just do it - it's human nature. In fairness though, much of Lekebusch's music stands the test of time so we can forgive him!

The dubstep and minimal scenes are two current scenes that are seeing a glut of releases from producers who are probably just following a formula at this stage as well. There was a stage when clicky minimal was quite niche, now it's morphed into a monster. I guess other emerging or less popular sounds may get their day sometime too.

[SlavikSvensk]

I was directing that post to DB's previous one, not yours ;)

ok i see that now...silly me

[dirty_bass]

Ok, so Neuton - as an example - might dictate some stuff from Germany or whatever, but that said, they (bigger companies) are necessary too. They are useful to smaller 'middle-men' companies, and when a big one goes down, sometimes lots of great labels go down, and smaller distributors suffer. EFA anyone?

As a matter of interest, who is/are the big bad wolf 'monopoly' distributor(s) in your opinion?

Personally I can think of quite a few small independent companies that are doing a good job and who I want to see continue selling records. Veto, Electronik, Possible, Base Level are quick examples. None of them have embraced Mp3 yet, and seem to be still managing, albeit probably not making bucketloads of money.

Also, there are many rock, and A-Z style distributors that are doing more electronic vinyl now, which I think is good. I've seen records pop up on lists I wouldn't have expected to have previously seen - sure, it might be a sign of labels having to spread their wings to shift units, but personally I think it's good to see a wider chain emerging for electronic/techno vinyl.

Ok, monopolies are not good, especially as mediocre music will prosper more as a result. That's why it's good to have faith in the existing companies that are keeping it real, putting out good records, and keeping independent spirit alive.

Relying on or putting all your faith into mp3 only and you're subscribing to an invisible and potentially *far* weaker scene in my opinion. The proof is already in the pudding, if you analyse the 'history' of digital labels, and vinyl labels converting to digital only.... I mean, where are the success stories?

More adventurous releases from some distributors would be a big advantage alright, but bland music seems to be more visible for a number of reasons now, including:

- Less new music being released, full stop.
- DJs (Big name) playing too many new records that don't cut the mustard.
- A disintigration of innovation

This said, I have lots of hope for the future, and hope many people can claw their way back, and that the appetite for edgier music in general... returns a little bit more.

I understand what you're saying about digital bringing control back to the independent artist, but that option is already there and has been for some time. The 'good' days of successful distributors are what brought us the great records we all own. There's a lot to be said for the single minded vision of distributors, past and present, which can't be scoffed at. If I were a label under the wing of a happening distributor, I know I'd be far happier than being a dot in the ocean of the digital label internet highway...

Some good points, but still, we will never know as mp3 is still a transition period.
To say there are no success stories just isn`t true. Emerson of killaz/kiddaz fm for 1 example is doing amazing amazing mp3 sales.
As the media gets stronger and more prevailant people will understand it and the business models will improve.
We don`t really have any techno specialist mp3 vendors, as we would record stores, but hopefully this will come, and will act as a central point, which is the main hurdle in mp3.
But you can`t fight the tide, even the major major labels have admitted that they are fighting a losing battle (and I`m talking THE majors), so eventually it will be the dominant media, no argument.

I mean, all the kids are walking around with mp3 players. My nephiew has just hit 15, he loves his music, but I show him some of my records on vinyl and he just laughs. Vinyl?
At least he vaguely knows what it is.
The younger generation simply do not know what it is at all, and I doubt they will suddenly go retro and buy decks in 10 years time, as by then, something even more amazing will be along, and some of us old ****s will still be harping on about the vinyl vs mp3 thing while the kids are on holographic cube media

The money a label would spend on vinyl would simply be put into marketing etc.

The good old days of big distributers were the days when electronic dance music was at it`s peak. Those days will never return. So therefor reminiscence is not a good model.

I`m not trying to preach doom and gloom, but I think it`s time to face the change and grab it before you are left behind.
Sure I love vinyl, and there are some great independant distributers out there, but they will soon be squeezed out, or at least feel the squeeze even more, as the market comes under more control.
Maybe if the smaller independants could group together, form a coalition, maybe develop a more coherent, centralised internet based pool of services or something, it might help.

there are no answers, but people with sensible contributions like yours and slavs, are the real hope, rather than the fingers in the ears, heads down, la la la attitude of many, who simply have invested so much of their time and life (as do we all) into this music that they refuse to see the wood for the trees.

[Sunil]

Some good points, but still, we will never know as mp3 is still a transition period.
To say there are no success stories just isn`t true. Emerson of killaz/kiddaz fm for 1 example is doing amazing amazing mp3 sales.
As the media gets stronger and more prevailant people will understand it and the business models will improve.
We don`t really have any techno specialist mp3 vendors, as we would record stores, but hopefully this will come, and will act as a central point, which is the main hurdle in mp3.
But you can`t fight the tide, even the major major labels have admitted that they are fighting a losing battle (and I`m talking THE majors), so eventually it will be the dominant media, no argument.

I mean, all the kids are walking around with mp3 players. My nephiew has just hit 15, he loves his music, but I show him some of my records on vinyl and he just laughs. Vinyl?
At least he vaguely knows what it is.
The younger generation simply do not know what it is at all, and I doubt they will suddenly go retro and buy decks in 10 years time, as by then, something even more amazing will be along, and some of us old ****s will still be harping on about the vinyl vs mp3 thing while the kids are on holographic cube media

The money a label would spend on vinyl would simply be put into marketing etc.

The good old days of big distributers were the days when electronic dance music was at it`s peak. Those days will never return. So therefor reminiscence is not a good model.

I`m not trying to preach doom and gloom, but I think it`s time to face the change and grab it before you are left behind.
Sure I love vinyl, and there are some great independant distributers out there, but they will soon be squeezed out, or at least feel the squeeze even more, as the market comes under more control.
Maybe if the smaller independants could group together, form a coalition, maybe develop a more coherent, centralised internet based pool of services or something, it might help.

there are no answers, but people with sensible contributions like yours and slavs, are the real hope, rather than the fingers in the ears, heads down, la la la attitude of many, who simply have invested so much of their time and life (as do we all) into this music that they refuse to see the wood for the trees.

Well, Emerson and Kiddaz may do great Mp3 sales, but they aren't solely a digital entity are they? Vinyl probably still keeps them more on the radar I'd imagine. Good for them though, they're experiencing the best of both worlds.

Re: Mp3 vendors - Yes, maybe there is a need for a better operator of this service for some styles of music, but that'll come as it's necessary I'm sure. I know you're talking about transitions for Mp3, and you are right in some ways. Mp3 is no spring chicken either though! There has been a fair deal of time for Mp3 distributors to surface, and let's be fair... quite a few already have.

I'm not saying that it's all vinyl or nothing, and I do see how the struggle to sell vinyl is getting harder; but I also think there's some distributors and styles of music that can and will weather the storm, and are still doing alright...selling vinyl. I think digital is obviously a big part of now and the future, so I'm not dismissing it totally - I'm just not convinced that the market will convert solely to this, or will be able to (if it knows what's good for it).

It's true that the small guys will feel the squeeze more, and some may fall... but y'know, for everyone that falls, another one usually rises - I guess no-one learns their lesson! Or else they still have a job that needs to be done :)

Well, the next 'big thing' could be about people streaming stuff off their hand held device via a supplier, without even having to download it. Apparantly, many record companies are now turning their people and lawyers' attention to this new 'opportunity' or 'threat' rather than the problem of downloading.