wheres the fat basslines gone

[Lag]

no offence intended but you've obviously not been listening to much hertz stuff..

and show me some techno that isnt loop based.. actually show me any music that isnt loop based.. besides freeform jazz.. all music has motifs that appear and re-occur. which really only amounts to loops. evryone uses loops. everybassline is looped. kick drums are looped. its what you do with the loops that makes it stand out. and IMO hertz does it well. he has a lovely polished sound, good tunes that work on the dancefloor and for just listening to and he's not afraid to try something differant.. just listen to his pierre j stuff on abyss.

im really not in the mood for an argument on why producer X is more talented than producer Y, so just accept my opinion and move on.. theres too much sh*it slinging around this place.. theres room in techno for every style, get used to it.

when i refer to loops im not talkin about off the shelf sample packs.. im talking about midi stuff that would be looped.. nobody sits there re-cording in a whole bassline of a track by hand.. its just not really feasable.. AND if on the off chance they do then they'll quantise it.. which ultimitly may as well be looped in the first place.

you totally missinterpreted what i wanted to say

[rhythmtech]

you totally missinterpreted what i wanted to say

fair enough m8. :)

what did you mean? (im not closed to debate.. i just wish people would explain there reasons more on here.. sometimes its very easy to mis-interpret words on a screen)

[DannyBlack]

fair enough m8. :)

what did you mean? (im not closed to debate.. i just wish people would explain there reasons more on here.. sometimes its very easy to mis-interpret words on a screen)

i hear you mass debate a lot mate.

[Lag]

fair enough m8. :)

what did you mean? (im not closed to debate.. i just wish people would explain there reasons more on here.. sometimes its very easy to mis-interpret words on a screen)

i mean that it isnt very musical
and patterns dont vary very much from tact to tact

lucky 17, recreate and stuff like that is pretty simple, not much complex harmony going in there

hes technically very good, and uses a lot of efx in places they should be used
but still, that isnt music
music is james ruskin - paranoia
or fatboy slim - push and shove
or gorillaz - kids with guns
or kenny larkin - fake french (epic mix)

[rhythmtech]

i mean that it isnt very musical
and patterns dont vary very much from tact to tact

lucky 17, recreate and stuff like that is pretty simple, not much complex harmony going in there

hes technically very good, and uses a lot of efx in places they should be used
but still, that isnt music
music is james ruskin - paranoia
or fatboy slim - push and shove
or gorillaz - kids with guns
or kenny larkin - fake french (epic mix)

but theres a lot of great music out there that isnt very musical. i dont think people should get hung up on the muso thing too much.. what makes great music isnt the chord progressions its the effect it has on the listener.. im a musician thru and thru m8 and i still love hertz stuff. im also a huge fan of dead can dance, doesnt mean i think they're any better than hertz because they're better musicians.

i know plenty of good musicians who couldnt get a track going.. yet i know lads that can only play 3 note basslines but have written some of the best tunes i've ever heard.

[eyeswithoutaface]

gotta agree with Ryukku im afraid, and for techno to pull itself out of this pretty stale stage it's in right now, then more people SHOULD be getting hung up on the musical side of things. There's pretty much nothing musical about Hertz tracks at all, and im a massive Hertz fan, i love his production, i love the phatness in some of his loops and tracks, he's done his share for techno no doubt, and he's even done stuff i bet half of you guys didnt even know was him. But musical it aint. It's totally solid, dancefloor techno. It does what it says on the tin. I wouldnt listen to Hertz if i was in the mood for being totally washed over by something beautiful musically well structured, performed and orchestrated to perfection. Same was as i wouldnt listen to Mozart or Verdi if i wanted to get down to some solid no-nonsense loopage.

it is essentially 100% the chord progressions and structure that makes good music, because if they dont have at least some co-herence, then the impact on the listener is pretty much determined before they've heard it. It's not going to sound great to them if it doesnt to you.

People need to detract from the meanings behind terms such as "music" as opposed to terms like "musical". Massive differences.

a great example of techno that is truely musical, check out Booka Shade. Then listen to most of the Sway releases. As much as i love them, and i have pretty much all the Sway's, they aint musical.

quite a good little discussion this actually :), especially considering who started the thread hey chaps

[eyeswithoutaface]

John Beltran

now there's some ****ing musicality boys and girls!!!!

[rhythmtech]

but again we're back to the old listening/dancefloor techno debate. booka shade (to me) has no place on a techno dancefloor. here another example: marks BOA label.. hardly the most "musical" label BUT it wipes dancefloors.. and, to me, thats what techno is all about. ITS MUSIC MADE FOR DANCING. i know i can listen to electronic music like the knife or the orb or whatever and its a beautiful listening experience but it wouldnt stand up in a banging techno set because it hasnt got dancefloor sensibilities..

maybe we need to think in new musical terms when labeling techno, maybe porduction and asthetics have become as much a part of the music as the tune itself? not saying that we dont need a good tune. i still think a good tune is paramount, but in all honesty a good tune can be 3/4 notes (like hertz) as much as it can be a big orchestral masterpiece.

[eyeswithoutaface]

i get your point mate, and i agree on some things, but to be honest it's the kind of opinion that, to me, just seems a little narrow minded. Dont take that in the sense of saying your not open to new things which is the main meaning, example, you dont think Booka Shade is dancefloor techno. Mate, seriously, Booka Shade is like going to a full on gig by your favourite band, it's dancefloor techno on a whole other level, detracting from the head's down, stomp till u drop side of things, which i still love of course, but this is something else. It's the way i personally think the scene needs to move into alot, lot more.

The sheer effort that goes into putting on shows like Booka do brings a whole new feeling and sense of energy to a gig, even if they are slotted in between 2 pretty regular, run of the mills (boom boom!) dj's playing the usual looped techno. Just seeing an instrument being played to create techno gets my juices going, as im sure it does your's having been in bands yourself, and i just think thats the direction alot of people could consider definately.

and seriously, u drop "little fluffy clouds" mid set and watch those who get it just fall at your feet mate. i've played the strangest tracks midset at times, all for my personal gratification of course, and expected a hail of bottles but i think on the whole, certainly over the past 2, 3 years, people are actually seeking out that sense of never knowing whats coming next, as much of a juxtoposition as it sounds, i mean how can you look for something that you dont know is coming, but you understand

although one bad example i have heard of such experimentation was in Atomic Jam once, some woeful dj played Jason Nevins "it's like that" into Surgeon "midnight club tracks 2"

it sounded as bad as it looks written down

[dirty_bass]

but again we're back to the old listening/dancefloor techno debate. booka shade (to me) has no place on a techno dancefloor. here another example: marks BOA label.. hardly the most "musical" label BUT it wipes dancefloors.. and, to me, thats what techno is all about. ITS MUSIC MADE FOR DANCING. i know i can listen to electronic music like the knife or the orb or whatever and its a beautiful listening experience but it wouldnt stand up in a banging techno set because it hasnt got dancefloor sensibilities..

maybe we need to think in new musical terms when labeling techno, maybe porduction and asthetics have become as much a part of the music as the tune itself? not saying that we dont need a good tune. i still think a good tune is paramount, but in all honesty a good tune can be 3/4 notes (like hertz) as much as it can be a big orchestral masterpiece.

I kinda disagree.
you can have music and rock a danceloor.
You only have to look to the disco era 70`s
Masses of musicality (whether you like it, or not) and huge amounts of people digging it and getting down.
Ok so that was a wierd example.
But as soon as every tom, dick and DJ thought they could make (music) "techno", by knocking together some loops and processing them to phuck, techno hit it`s lowest patch ever. The glut and slew of 2000 to present day, when I backlash is finally happaning.
Sure, loopy dancefloor only stuff has it`s merits, but it became the norm, just loops and dancefloor and nothing else.
Is it any wonder that techno is the dance music with the lowest sales, lowest club attendance, least events etc.
People just can`t relate to it. And people do like to be able to recognise something, anything, some kind of hook, that they can then go "oh yeah, I heard this last month, or whatever, it`s wicked, I`m gonna dance".
Interestingly the female perspective comes in again, as a whole (and I`m being careful not to tar all girls with the same brush), women generally prefer melody or some kind of tune in music.
Across the board, that`s why the more obscure music, from dance music to bands, has more blokes and less chicks in attendance.

So sure, there`s room for a bit of loop-de-loop to keep the DJ`s happy, but I think musicality and tunefullness is also just as essential.

and it is elitist I know, but really we could do with more musicians making music, and less DJ`s using their names to knock out substandard cack.

[Lag]

but theres a lot of great music out there that isnt very musical. i dont think people should get hung up on the muso thing too much.. what makes great music isnt the chord progressions its the effect it has on the listener.. im a musician thru and thru m8 and i still love hertz stuff. im also a huge fan of dead can dance, doesnt mean i think they're any better than hertz because they're better musicians.

i know plenty of good musicians who couldnt get a track going.. yet i know lads that can only play 3 note basslines but have written some of the best tunes i've ever heard.

rythm is music too
music is voice + melody + rythm
all should be complicated and harmonic
if one is missing, the other two can make up for it
someone even likes just two (like i dont like vocals)

but dude, one cant make up for two elements missing
its almost impossible

if u look back, im sure ull realise that techno didnt become big because it was hard. it became big, because its emotions were strong. when there was no emotions left, just the hard punching kick and some empty melodies to fill the space around it - techno died out

[rhythmtech]

if u look back, im sure ull realise that techno didnt become big because it was hard. it became big, because its emotions were strong. when there was no emotions left, just the hard punching kick and some empty melodies to fill the space around it - techno died out

m8.. i never once thought techno had to be hard.. in fact if i hear anything over 145 i start getting the shakes

i love melodic techno, i think that techno should have music to it. but what im saying is that musicians dont have to be accomplished musos to write a great tune. look at the punk scene.. some of my fave music ever has come from punk.. and bar 1 or 2 bands (subhumans for one) most punk bands played pretty simplistic stuff. it was about attitude and attitude coming across in music. i think hertz has a certain attitude to his music.. a lot of people will cite him as a favourite producer because of the amount of funk that he generates in a tune. he certainly isnt just a big kick and some loops.

i know this cause if he was i wouldnt be bothered listening.

[Lag]

m8.. i never once thought techno had to be hard.. in fact if i hear anything over 145 i start getting the shakes

i love melodic techno, i think that techno should have music to it. but what im saying is that musicians dont have to be accomplished musos to write a great tune. look at the punk scene.. some of my fave music ever has come from punk.. and bar 1 or 2 bands (subhumans for one) most punk bands played pretty simplistic stuff. it was about attitude and attitude coming across in music. i think hertz has a certain attitude to his music.. a lot of people will cite him as a favourite producer because of the amount of funk that he generates in a tune. he certainly isnt just a big kick and some loops.

i know this cause if he was i wouldnt be bothered listening.

punk is a music of vocals and attitude
it doesnt have to do anything with music
while techno, since its creatioin, was all about music
so you cant actually compare the two

and you keep missing the point. yes, hertz has melodies. yes, hertz is funky. but dude, its simple as it gets. as i said, its just tunes to fill the space around the kick.
u can sing out any hertz tune
try singing out james ruskin - profile =P